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Boundary Extension for City?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    Limerick isn't even Limerick for MASP purposes - it's officially Limerick-Shannon.

    here's the rational stated in the Regional Spacial Economic Strategy
    Limerick City is the largest urban centre in Ireland’s
    Mid-West and the country’s third largest city. Shannon
    is a significant employment centre with assets such as
    Shannon International Airport, Shannon Free-Zone
    and the International Aviation Services Centre (IASC).
    Limerick City and Shannon are interdependent, with
    their complementary functions contributing to a
    combined strength that is a key economic driver for the
    Region and Ireland.

    Limerick Regeneration, the amalgamation of Limerick
    City and County and the Limerick 2030 initiative have
    all contributed to enhancing Limerick’s growth potential.
    Shannon has developed into a centre for research and
    development for autonomous vehicles that complements
    Shannon’s role as a world leader in aviation. Working
    together with the City’s third level institutions, Shannon
    Airport and bodies such as Shannon Development and
    the Shannon-, Foynes Port Company there is capacity to
    build on recent successes and add to the ambitious vision
    for Limerick.

    Waterford introduction hints at the problem we have
    Waterford is the largest urban centre in the South-East
    and the State’s fifth largest city and is unique in having
    a network of large and strong urban centres in close
    proximity.
    A port city, it has a diverse industrial and
    commercial base and has the fifth largest employment
    base in the State.

    The attributes of the Waterford Metropolitan Area are
    its people, its history as Ireland’s oldest city, its maritime
    location and connections, and its function as the main
    urban centre in the South-East for business, education,
    healthcare, retail, leisure and wider public services.

    The vision for the Waterford MASP is to develop a
    concentric city both north and south of the River Suir
    (including areas within County Kilkenny). Development
    of educational resources and a university in Waterford,
    recognising the City’s people as the heart of its

    Close but not quite close enough to be plausibly included in a metro area it seems.

    Apart from Tramore obviously and New Ross and Carrick-on Suir!


  • Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭ azimuth17


    The Waterford MASP aspiration looks pretty miserable. Almost afraid to set out the stall lest they offend someone in Wexford or Kilkenny.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34 IsosKramer


    invara wrote: »
    The strategic significance of getting the boundary extension cannot be under-estimated. In the next census, both Limerick and Cork's populations will be jacked up as they got their boundary extension over the line. Galway took in Salthill in 1986 to leapfrog us, both cities are around the same size, but Galway reports 79k people, Waterford 53k. Dubs, looking at us through a spreadsheet will think Waterford is tiny and will forget that the boundary extension artificially suppresses the urban population; and as a result, we will be denied services (such as cardiac care or a university). It is not too extreme to say, that the bizarre decision by Simon Coveney to overturn the recommended boundary extension puts some of our lives at risk.

    That post is substantially incorrect.
    The CSO figures (2016 in this case) reflect the ACTUAL population.

    The populations, and what is included, is stated clearly in the CSO publication:
    Limerick City 94,192 (INCLUDING suburbs in Co. Clare)
    Galway City 79,934
    Waterford City 53,504 (INCLUDING suburbs in Co Kilkenny)
    Therefore, every person in every suburb of every city is accounted for in the CSO data. Hence, it is immaterial to the CSO,and reality, as to how the actual, total population is subdivided within an urban area.

    Another interesting (but sobering reality check) piece of data in the 2016 census is:

    Table 4.1
    "Daytime Working Population "

    Limerick City. 44,624
    Galway City. 44,376
    Waterford City. 24,375

    It is clear, though possibly depressing, that it is nonsense to say that that Galway and Waterford "are around the same size". Nobody outside Waterford, or possibly these threads, would believe it because it's incorrect. Wishful thinking achieves nothing and constant repetition of this misstatement will never bring it closer to reality.
    Galway City's population is, per the CSO and immaterial of boundaries approximately 50% bigger than Waterford City's. That figure could be even more stark.In fact, because of the high prices of houses and lack of available sites for housing, the vast majority of Galway's first-time buyers could never live in the city and have to look elsewhere. Not an issue in Waterford.
    The working population, I think, gives a very telling indication of the true relative difference in scale between Galway and Waterford. Galway City's(and Limerick's) daytime population is over 80% larger than that of Waterford City.
    In fairness, it isn't the first time, nor, regardless of facts, will it be the last, that the "similar in size" mantra will be trotted out....but, frankly, it's ludicrous to everybody outside Waterford at least.
    Rather than looking up at bigger cities, Waterford needs to look at Drogheda as it might not be the fifth largest population centre in the not-too-distant future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭ invara


    IsosKramer wrote: »
    That post is substantially incorrect.
    The CSO figures (2016 in this case) reflect the ACTUAL population.

    The populations, and what is included, is stated clearly in the CSO publication:
    Limerick City 94,192 (INCLUDING suburbs in Co. Clare)
    Galway City 79,934
    Waterford City 53,504 (INCLUDING suburbs in Co Kilkenny)
    Therefore, every person in every suburb of every city is accounted for in the CSO data. Hence, it is immaterial to the CSO,and reality, as to how the actual, total population is subdivided within an urban area.

    Another interesting (but sobering reality check) piece of data in the 2016 census is:

    Table 4.1
    "Daytime Working Population "

    Limerick City. 44,624
    Galway City. 44,376
    Waterford City. 24,375

    It is clear, though possibly depressing, that it is nonsense to say that that Galway and Waterford "are around the same size". Nobody outside Waterford, or possibly these threads, would believe it because it's incorrect. Wishful thinking achieves nothing and constant repetition of this misstatement will never bring it closer to reality.
    Galway City's population is, per the CSO and immaterial of boundaries approximately 50% bigger than Waterford City's. That figure could be even more stark.In fact, because of the high prices of houses and lack of available sites for housing, the vast majority of Galway's first-time buyers could never live in the city and have to look elsewhere. Not an issue in Waterford.
    The working population, I think, gives a very telling indication of the true relative difference in scale between Galway and Waterford. Galway City's(and Limerick's) daytime population is over 80% larger than that of Waterford City.
    In fairness, it isn't the first time, nor, regardless of facts, will it be the last, that the "similar in size" mantra will be trotted out....but, frankly, it's ludicrous to everybody outside Waterford at least.
    Rather than looking up at bigger cities, Waterford needs to look at Drogheda as it might not be the fifth largest population centre in the not-too-distant future.

    Daytime working population is an interesting single data point, less impressed with the suggestion that I talk nonsense.

    The live register is another interesting data point. In April 2016 Galway had 7,825 signing on, Waterford City 8,555 , but I do not see anyone arguing that Waterford is bigger than Galway based on that.

    Daytime working pop. in Q2 2016 is only part of the picture. Unemployment was running at ~10% in both the West and SE in Q2 2016. Galway has significantly lower unemployment than its region, Waterford has slightly more than its hinterland. I sustain my view that both cities are functionally around the same size once gerrymandering is stripped out.

    We know how the labour markets are composed- so, for example, the West has around double the per capita IDA jobs of the SE- and these jobs tend to be focused on urban centres. In 2018 Galway had 19,969 IDA supported jobs, Waterford 7,064 (Galway county is around the double the pop. of Waterford, so it might be more of a comparison to add in Kilkenny's population and its 711 IDA supported jobs). In 2016 the IDA reopened its regional office in Waterford, having close it in 1992- we know IDA in the SE region (~420k) is around half the national average. IBEC's Gerard Brady recently presented a study in the ERSI journal suggesting that for every IDA supported job there is 3 additional jobs created in the county. That in itself would account for the daytime working population gap.

    The IDA found the SE hard to market without a university, and put their efforts elsewhere. Their big push for the SE, now 5 years old has turned up very little.

    You might also add in the 2.5k jobs in NUIG and you can see why the jobs rate runs very shallow. Interestingly enough NUIG has 18,000 students, many of whom (once out of first-year) participate in the census. Of course, on foot of COVID census21 is delayed- it would reshape the urban populations of cities highly dependent on students.

    Thanks for your suggestion that Waterford and the entire SE accept the underprovision of services that are normal in other regions of Ireland. Drogheda is 37 minutes from Dublin if the good people of Louth wish to access five universities or indeed cardiac care; or any other urban service it is available on their doorstep.

    It is a simple fact that a large region of Ireland, around 10% is being left to rot- it was an intolerable situation when the West was in that situation in the 1980s and significant Government action (the Western Development Commission), strategic focus by the IDA and NUIG investment shouted stop and ensured the west woke up.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭ curmudgeonly



    I would agree with Jody Power the boundary extension is inevitable, just needs the right political climate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭ hardybuck


    I would agree with Jody Power the boundary extension is inevitable, just needs the right political climate.

    The political climate won't change - if people get annoyed about it they'll direct their outrage at whoever is in political office at the time.

    A very compelling reason for change is required, and people in south Kilkenny need to start asking for this themselves rather than the other way around.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    Buy them off. Money talks. Promise them better erm....street lights. Actually it's hard to think of something you could bribe them with in a world of privatised services. They take the convenience of Waterford's shopping, education, jobs, etc as a given and nothing can hinder thier access so the compelling argument for living in a slightly greater urban area is hard to find.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭ hardybuck


    Buy them off. Money talks. Promise them better erm....street lights. Actually it's hard to think of something you could bribe them with in a world of privatised services. They take the convenience of Waterford's shopping, education, jobs, etc as a given and nothing can hinder thier access so the compelling argument for living in a slightly greater urban area is hard to find.

    Better off to spend the money on the city centre and the North Quays for the next 5-10 years, and make sure the areas currently within their control are in good order.

    After that it might become obvious that one side of the border is in better shape than the other.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,057 ✭✭✭✭ Hello 2D Person Below


    It's a unique boundary in that it's a county/city border, rather than the common county/county border. Waterford are seeking to extend one of the country's main urban areas, not just claim a few random fields in the middle of nowhere.

    Both Waterford and Kilkenny Councils should have come to a mutually beneficial agreement long ago.

    The more attractive Waterford becomes, the better Kilkenny does, and vice-versa. In terms of visitor numbers, there's nothing between them. They both rank in the top 10 counties for tourism. They're only 20 mins up and down the M9, or a few € on the train, from each other.

    They should be strongly aligned for the benefit of the region instead of this willy-waving carry on.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭ azimuth17


    The only point to make at this stage, is that the piece of land at issue and recommended by the Boundary Commission for transfer to Waterford city, is the historic Northern Liberty of Waterford city which was administered by the city for hundreds of years. It will eventually happen, but should be given with good grace as a positive contribution to Waterford city by Kilkenny Co Co, if such a thing is possible,


  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭ Dunmoreroader


    https://soundcloud.com/kclr96fm/green-party-cllr-jody-power-waterford-extending-its-boundary-into-south-kilkenny-on-the-way-it-is

    Jesus wept, the level of discourse on this topic has not improved in the intervening years. Is Sue Nunn an actual journalist? "I'm joined on the line from eeeh, eeeh,...Cheekpoint?....I think"(Sue, it's a village in your neighbouring county, he's not phoning you from Basra) It goes downhill from there.."uproar in South Kilkenny", blah blah, "GAA", blah blah. She can't even get the name of the local authority right referring to Waterford County Council repeatedly.
    It's like every time this issue gets raised again (which it will until it gets done) the debate defaults to pure ignorance again despite much sensible information on the pros and cons out there to debate on, like try reading the boundary commission report Sue.
    Sun Nunn: "Everybody is against this including the GAA, including business" Bullsh1t - most of the businesses in the area recommended to be moved would welcome this. As for this figure of over 20,000 locals against this - more bullsh1t. There were just under 20,000 submissions in total of which approx. 300 came from the area chosen to be moved which has a population of 4,500.
    This fake news that the vast majority of people affected in the actual area actually chosen to change are vehemently against this needs to be called out.
    It didn't help that Cllr. Jody Power didn't raise this, he doesn't seem to be on top of his brief despite being the one to raise this at Council again.
    I wouldn't have expected much better from KCLR but it doesn't seem to be debated any better on WLR as Damien Tiernan's recent discussion with the union guy bears out.
    This is an important topic for the city and region. Can local journalists(I use the term advisedly) not debate and discuss this in their papers and on their radio stations without defaulting to lazy trite uninformed 3rd-hand ****e arguements?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    These British borders are such trouble! Would 2021 be a good year to consider thier value as they stand? ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭ azimuth17


    In all the verbiage about this issue from people in the media who know nothing about it I wonder would Sue Nunn or Damien Tiernan know the piece of land to be transferred as mentioned in my post of Dec 2nd? Most of the opposition comes from and came from Kilkenny "city" town. The constant reference to Waterford County Council is simply because Kilkenny only has a county council now. They cannot understand how Waterford could have a city and county council when they do not for that would be to believe that Waterford city was different to their Kilkenny "city".

    Before the Waterford city and county amalgamation both Waterford local authorities were independent county councils. The county of the City of Waterford and Waterford county council. That was not the situation in Kilkenny where Kilkenny Borough (like Wexford, Clonmel etc) was a subsidiary part of Kilkenny co co. I am not trying to offend anyone, but also am not sure that trying to inject sensible points into this discussion will ever get anywhere. Kilkenny "city" is against anything which might add to the status of Waterford city. Its sad. Nevertheless, the issue will eventually be solved and the extension will happen. A sensible Minister for the Environment will see to that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭ Dunmoreroader


    azimuth17 wrote: »
    In all the verbiage about this issue from people in the media who know nothing about it I wonder would Sue Nunn or Damien Tiernan know the piece of land to be transferred as mentioned in my post of Dec 2nd? Most of the opposition comes from and came from Kilkenny "city" town. The constant reference to Waterford County Council is simply because Kilkenny only has a county council now. They cannot understand how Waterford could have a city and county council when they do not for that would be to believe that Waterford city was different to their Kilkenny "city".

    Before the Waterford city and county amalgamation both Waterford local authorities were independent county councils. The county of the City of Waterford and Waterford county council. That was not the situation in Kilkenny where Kilkenny Borough (like Wexford, Clonmel etc) was a subsidiary part of Kilkenny co co. I am not trying to offend anyone, but also am not sure that trying to inject sensible points into this discussion will ever get anywhere. Kilkenny "city" is against anything which might add to the status of Waterford city. Its sad. Nevertheless, the issue will eventually be solved and the extension will happen. A sensible Minister for the Environment will see to that.


    Eamonn Ryan....sensible?.....Hmmm....:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ Bards


    [/B]

    Eamonn Ryan....sensible?.....Hmmm....:rolleyes:

    Just tell him that we will promise to install window boxes and grow lettuce in the new Waterford Suburb should he grant the extension


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    Well you joke but if the extension area were indeed sold on the promise of being built on cutting edge technologies for power creation and consumption and would be a showcase for the work of WIT research then maybe Mr Ryan would look kindly upon a request! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 587 ✭✭✭ Dum_Dum


    Well you joke but if the extension area were indeed sold on the promise of being built on cutting edge technologies for power creation and consumption and would be a showcase for the work of WIT research then maybe Mr Ryan would look kindly upon a request! :D


    Agreed, why not? Well insulated, low energy, higher density living - 'walkable' with well managed public spaces. A new kind of urbanism. It's about the right scale too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 366 ✭✭ spaceCreated


    Well you joke but if the extension area were indeed sold on the promise of being built on cutting edge technologies for power creation and consumption and would be a showcase for the work of WIT research then maybe Mr Ryan would look kindly upon a request! :D

    I'd say he finds it difficult to look past the pale tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭ BBM77


    https://www.wlrfm.com/news/kilkenny-council-owe-waterfords-fire-service-over-half-a-million-euro-282042

    What the actual f*%$? Why the hell are we paying for fire services in South Kilkenny? If they are not going to pay for it end the agreement.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,789 ✭✭✭ BBM77


    Kilkenny are more than willing to toss our lives aside with things like 24 hr Cardiac care. So lives only matter when it is theirs apparently. Just find it irritating that Kilkenny CC will do everything to block a boundary extension in an area they clearly don’t give a dam about. Then won’t provide services expecting Waterford to do so and not even fully paying for the services.



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cabaal


    You've clearly not read the story,

    Hard for Kilkenny to pay when Waterford hasn't charged for it and Waterford only identified the miss after an audit.

    Sounds like bad book keeping by Waterford to be honest

    Post edited by Cabaal on


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