The Hazards of Belief

recedite · 09-03-2016 01:20PM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

...a seemingly Muslim country
.. a country with fairly low religiosity (for a Muslim country)

Obviously you have never been to rural Turkey. the state may be officially secular, but the population is very definitely muslim.

oldrnwisr · 09-03-2016 03:14PM

recedite wrote: »

In most of your examples the perpetrators were criminal gangs.

And I suppose Turkey doesn't have criminal gangs? Really?

What about Dundar Kilic, Alaattin Cakici, Sedat Peker, Mehmet Ali Yaprak, the Soylemez gang etc.

recedite wrote: »

In places like Mexico drugs barons can operate with impunity because they control the local police.

The Soylemez gang controlled not only the deputy chief of police in Istanbul (Deniz Gokcetin) but also the head of Istanbul Security Sedat Demir. When 25 members of the gang were arrested in 1996 the group included 8 serving police officers.

recedite wrote: »

South Africa has a terrible crime rate. We already know that.
Turkey does not have a particularly high crime rate in terms of theft and car-jackings, so it is not equivalent to SA in overall crime rate.

What does theft and car-jacking have to do with anything? Neither of the two cases I cited from South Africa involve theft or car-jacking. Anene Booysen was raped and murdered by a man she left a local bar with and an accomplice he met up with later at a construction site near her home. The second case involves two couples who were set upon by a gang of 12 men while walking in a park.
While we're on the subject, South Africa has a terrible crime rate so might be an outlier. Well what about the UK, the USA or Bermuda?

recedite wrote: »

What we see in the story of this Italian woman's death is a whole community which is complicit to some extent, in condoning or failing to prevent this particular crime from happening. That factor is absent from all of your examples.

Where's your evidence for this?

Facts, unlike the wild speculation in this thread, are thin on the ground in this case. What is known about the Bacca case is that she split up with her travelling companion just prior to arriving in Istanbul. Her body was subsequently found in or near the city of Gebze, a city of 300,000 people (the same size as Belfast or Coventry or the combined populations of Cork and Limerick). This was reported by BBC, NY Times and one of Turkey's major newspaper Hurriyet. So this wasn't a small rural community that you've hinted at in your previous posts.
What we know about her killers is - not much. The confessed killer is clearly a patsy but there's no evidence to suggest who actually killed her, much less that her death is the subject of a conspiracy of silence by a whole community.

recedite wrote: »

Did you actually watch this video?
Are you going to tell me that too, could just as easily have happened in Dublin or Limerick, if somebody had been (wrongly as it turned out) accused of burning a bible?

No, I didn't watch the video but I did research the facts of the case. No, this wouldn't have happened in Limerick or Dublin but it's unlikely to have happened in Turkey either.

You see, the only actual evidence for religiosity in Turkey to be presented so far (that is not anecdotal) is JPNelsforearm's link to a Pew Forum study on Islamic religious attitudes. So we can clearly see the difference between an act of blasphemy like burning the Quran in Afghanistan vs. Turkey. In Afghanistan 99% of the population is Muslim compared to 97% in Turkey so pretty similar. However, 92% of the population of Afghanistan consider religion to be important compared to just 67% of Turks. 91% of Afghans pray every day, compared to just 44% of Turks. 43% of Afghans read the Quran every day compared to just 9% of Turks. Clearly the levels of religiosity in both countries is not comparable. Thus, the reaction to such an act (even if it was a wrongful accusation) is disgraceful and deplorable but not surprising in Afghanistan.
However, the case above is important for the point I made in my last post. The factors which lead to something like the case in Afghanistan are more complicated than just putting it down to religion. Afghanistan is a dirt poor country where half the male and three quarters of the female population are illiterate.
Also, the relationship between Muslims and the Quran is different to how Christians would see the bible. Christians see the bible as the work of men albeit ones who were divinely inspired. On the other hand muslims see the Quran to be more like the Ten Commandments, something directly dictated by their God. This is why most faithful muslims wouldn't allow an infidel to even handle their copy. So when an accusation of burning something of that nature is made when the only thing these people have is religion, yes it's going to piss them off. But there's a world of difference between Afghanistan and Turkey.

recedite wrote: »

Obviously you have never been to rural Turkey. the state may be officially secular, but the population is very definitely muslim.

Well if you'd like to present evidence for an urban rural divide in religiosity then I'll happily amend my argument, but so far the only evidence for religiosity in Turkey is the link posted by JPNelsforearm which doesn't support either his or your argument.

recedite · 09-03-2016 05:04PM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

No, I didn't watch the video but I did research the facts of the case. No, this wouldn't have happened in Limerick or Dublin but it's unlikely to have happened in Turkey either.

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Researching only facts and figures is a valuable exercise, but it can leave you detached from the realities of life.

Turkish religion and culture has more in common with Afghanistan than it does with Ireland. Which is a large part of the points being made earlier.

Nodin · 09-03-2016 05:20PM

recedite wrote: »

What we see in the story of this Italian woman's death is a whole community which is complicit to some extent, in condoning or failing to prevent this particular crime from happening. That factor is absent from all of your examples.
..................................

I'd like to see the evidence of that, and an explanation as to why that does apply or doesn't to this case

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/life-for-killer-of-swiss-student-403604.html

recidite wrote:

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Researching only facts and
figures is a valuable exercise, but it can leave you detached from the realities
of life.

Christ help us all. Do you have any interesting drawings of Jews and muslims you want to show us?

oldrnwisr · 09-03-2016 05:42PM

recedite wrote: »

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Researching only facts and figures is a valuable exercise, but it can leave you detached from the realities of life.

Perhaps, but what I usually find is that pictures, and video for that matter are often posted to provoke an emotional response, to get everyone fired up. However as we all know arguing from emotion is a bad idea. I tend to agree with Bertrand Russell:

"When you are studying any matter, or considering any philosophy, ask yourself only what are the facts and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted either by what you wish to believe, or by what you think would have beneficent social effects if it were believed, but look only, and solely, at what are the facts."

recedite wrote: »

Turkish religion and culture has more in common with Afghanistan than it does with Ireland. Which is a large part of the points being made earlier.

Well I'm a bit confused now. Are we talking about the Farkhunda case or the Bacca one? Could the Farkhunda case have happened in Ireland? Well, no for reasons outlined already. No argument from me there. Could the Bacca case have happened here? Certainly. A young woman gets gang raped and murdered by multiple unknown individuals and dumped by the roadside. That can happen anywhere. Particularly in a country which has two cities with histories of gang violence (i.e. Limerick and Dublin).

What's so different, for example between Bacca's murder and a case like this one from Cabra in 2014. There's been suggestions that the Bacca case is evidence of the spread of an Egyptian phenomenon called taharrush but none of the facts in the case bear out this conclusion over say, a local criminal gang or just two or three local rapists. Particularly, the defining characteristic of taharrush is the attack being perpetrated under the cover of a large crowd, something absent in the Bacca case.

recedite · 09-03-2016 07:43PM

Nodin wrote: »

I'd like to see the evidence of that, and an explanation as to why that does apply or doesn't to this case

Ayse Karabat had an interesting article about that in Zaman newspaper called "Being disgraced in the eyes of whom?" in which she explored the viewpoint that "a woman hitchhiking alone deserves to be raped" and how prevalent, or not, that concept is in Turkey. When somebody is perceived to be getting what they deserve, people are less likely to help them.
I was going to link to it, but I see Erdogan's govt. has now shut down the entire back catalogue of articles, following their recent takeover of the newspaper.
Its similar to the concept of the "honour killing" which is common in Pakistani communities; Which should be considered more disgraceful in the eyes of Allah, allowing the carry-on to continue, or the ending of it by killing or humiliating the person who lacks adequate morals?

Nodin wrote: »

Christ help us all. Do you have any interesting drawings of Jews and muslims you want to show us?

No, do you have any?

Shrap · 09-03-2016 08:02PM

recedite wrote: »

Its similar to the concept of the "honour killing" which is common in Pakistani communities; Which should be considered more disgraceful in the eyes of Allah, allowing the carry-on to continue, or the ending of it by killing or humiliating the person who lacks adequate morals?

Are you sure? Have you a bias basis for this belief? After all, gang rape and murder often happens in places where there are massive societal gender problems. For instance, here's a handy article that hasn't been pulled - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/29/south-africa-rape-nightmare-crime-stats
However, Islam religion isn't mentioned so maybe it's not so relevant to you......

A history of violence and dispossession has bred a toxic masculinity at both ends of the political spectrum.

recedite · 09-03-2016 10:17PM

Shrap wrote: »

here's a handy article that hasn't been pulled - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/29/south-africa-rape-nightmare-crime-stats
However, Islam religion isn't mentioned so maybe it's not so relevant to you......

Its a bit rubbish; want to blame somebody for the rise in rape and general crime in SA since the ANC took over? Blame whitey.

Under colonialism and apartheid, adult Africans were designated boys and girls, legally and economically infantilised, Gqola writes. Asserting masculinity could provide a way of rejecting that position.

Maybe whitey is the reason for the honour killings in Pakistan as well? Shur wasn't that a colony too?

BTW I didn't say the misogyny issue in muslim countries was exclusively down to religion. Its a combination of religion, culture and ignorance.

Shrap · 10-03-2016 07:05AM

recedite wrote: »

BTW I didn't say the misogyny issue in muslim countries was exclusively down to religion. Its a combination of religion, culture and ignorance.

Ah good. Just like all misogyny everywhere then. Which was the point I'm trying to get across with pulling up that article (whether it's crap or not is beside the point).

Cabaal · 10-03-2016 09:29AM

I suppose this is a hazard,

Liveline Podcast
http://www.rte.ie/cspodcasts/media.mp3?c1=2&c2=16951747&ns_site=test&ns_type=clickin&rte_vs_ct=aud&rte_vs_sc=pod&rte_mt_sec=radio&rte_vs_sn=radio1&rte_mt_pub_dt=2016-03-09&rte_mt_prg_name=test-liveline&title=Stained%20Glass%20Window&c7=http%3A%2F%2Fpodcast.rasset.ie%2Fpodcasts%2Faudio%2F2016%2F0309%2F20160309_rteradio1-liveline-stainedgla_c20948911_20948916_232_drm_.mp3&r=http%3A%2F%2Fpodcast.rasset.ie%2Fpodcasts%2Faudio%2F2016%2F0309%2F20160309_rteradio1-liveline-stainedgla_c20948911_20948916_232_drm_.mp3

Ray Wolseley offered to donate a stained glass window to the Cuisle Cancer Centre in Portlaoise. They refused his offer on the basis that it featured religious symbols.

The argument was that angels are secular.....secular?

It really shows that religious people don't even understand what secular means

not connected with religious or spiritual matters.

Apparently crosses (which the person admits is the cross Jesus died on) is also not religious
:rolleyes:

looksee · 10-03-2016 10:37AM

That is a rather baffling interview indeed! The contradictions in that discussion were very strange. Ray wants a window that is religious so he is sponsoring one with non-religious angels and a cross?

Nodin · 10-03-2016 11:28AM

recedite wrote: »

Its a bit rubbish; want to blame somebody for the rise in rape and general crime in SA since the ANC took over? Blame whitey.
Maybe whitey is the reason for the honour killings in Pakistan as well? Shur wasn't that a colony too?

BTW I didn't say the misogyny issue in muslim countries was exclusively down to religion. Its a combination of religion, culture and ignorance.

So now its muslims, Jews and "the blacks"?

robindch · 12-03-2016 02:22AM

Game rangers step in to help when the Holy Spirit failed to show:

http://thesoutherndaily.co.za/pastor-charges-lion.html.html

Nearly loses his ass in the process:

Southern Daily wrote:

So severe was the lion paw injury that Alec had to be rushed to hospital for emergency surgery. The man was fearing he would lose his bum but the doctor’s assured him he would still have his left bum intact.

topmanamillion · 12-03-2016 02:30AM

robindch wrote: »

Game rangers step in to help when the Holy Spirit failed to show:

http://thesoutherndaily.co.za/pastor-charges-lion.html.html

Nearly loses his ass in the process:

Is that translated from another language to English? I get the gist of what happened but very hard to follow.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers · 12-03-2016 07:35AM

^lmfao

mansize · 12-03-2016 07:37AM

topmanamillion wrote: »

Is that translated from another language to English? I get the gist of what happened but very hard to follow.

the book of moron?

recedite · 12-03-2016 08:38AM

Great photo though, it captures the moment;
"WTF... my Holy Spirit powers aren't working on the lions... Oh god, oh god, oh $hit, oh $hit.."

silverharp · 12-03-2016 09:05AM

the holy spirit was busy with this turtle,obviously cant be in 2 places at once :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=welQyaDoUso

Hotblack Desiato · 12-03-2016 09:39AM

'toilet sitting tool' :pac:

The Black Oil · 13-03-2016 02:13PM

https://twitter.com/monaeltahawy/status/708960937185812481

Grand so...

JPNelsforearm · 13-03-2016 02:37PM

In fairness, you dont parallel park a 747

Shrap · 13-03-2016 06:44PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

In fairness, you dont parallel park a 747

Just couldn't help yourself huh? Stay classy you.

Pherekydes · 13-03-2016 07:40PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

In fairness, you dont parallel park a 747

Yeah, sure there's far less training involved in flying a 787 than in learning to parallel park. :rolleyes:

The Black Oil · 13-03-2016 10:50PM

Speaking of parking, if they flew into Ireland we'd probably call it a vehicle.

robindch · 14-03-2016 03:02AM

For the last few years, a slow-burn thread has encouraged a lot of mormons to question their religious leaders and their church:

http://www.vocativ.com/news/295150/dark-net-mormon/
http://cesletter.com/

The CES letter contains far more than you'd ever want to know, but does include a few interesting titbits on where the entire mormon religious mythology may have came from (page 12 et seq).

Custardpi · 14-03-2016 10:29AM

A slip of the tongue gets Egytian minister sacked. Is anyone else reminded of that Life Of Brian scene where a man praises his wife's cooking as being "good enough for Jehovah"?

Hotblack Desiato · 15-03-2016 08:37AM

Priest’s passing underlines crisis faced by church

the usual 'what will we do when there are no priests', but a more interesting question would be 'will anyone still care when there are no priests?'

In his 2012 book 'Catholiques et Bretons Toujours?' the renowned Breton historian Jean Rohou described the 2011 funeral service of his brother, an anti-clerical unbeliever. It was conducted as a religious ritual at the insistence of his children because this was in accordance with local custom.

Sigh...

Second Toughest in_the Freshers · 15-03-2016 09:06AM

Custardpi wrote: »

A slip of the tongue gets Egytian minister sacked.

How niggardly of them...

*(that makes no sense...)

Woodville56 · 15-03-2016 10:19AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Priest’s passing underlines crisis faced by church

the usual 'what will we do when there are no priests', but a more interesting question would be 'will anyone still care when there are no priests?'

Sigh...

Your post implies that the lives of people like the late Fr. Byrne are of no consequence to the faith communities they serve, meaning that their ministry hasn't touched people's lives in a positive and caring or healing way ? I'm sure many of his parishioners would say otherwise. It's easy to be dismissive of the role of the clergy and we all know about the bad apples among them and the injustices and criminality of some, but think of the Peter McVerry's or the Harry Bohan's or the Michael Mernagh's, the Sr Stan's or Sr Consilio's and countless other unsung members of the clergy and religious who lead lives of service and support to communities and ask would their presence be missed, or is our country not a better place because of their ministry ? Would you say that their faith formation has had no connection or influence in their roles as championing the causes they work towards or the communities they support ?
Of course, to those who don't believe or practice their faith, no, they won't care about the disappearance of an ageing clergy,they're just going to have to find other targets for an expression of their their secularist fervour. Likewise those who want all traces of church removed from our constitution and public services, they can't wait to see the back of the clergy while they supplant Christian values with their own values of non belief. But for those of us who do "keep the faith", we may well end up attending funeral rites like the one described in Jean Rohou's book, as quoted, a "back to the future" glimpse of early Christian communities for those of us who hang on perhaps?

looksee · 15-03-2016 01:47PM

Woodville56 wrote: »

Your post implies that the lives of people like the late Fr. Byrne are of no consequence to the faith communities they serve, meaning that their ministry hasn't touched people's lives in a positive and caring or healing way ? I'm sure many of his parishioners would say otherwise. It's easy to be dismissive of the role of the clergy and we all know about the bad apples among them and the injustices and criminality of some, but think of the Peter McVerry's or the Harry Bohan's or the Michael Mernagh's, the Sr Stan's or Sr Consilio's and countless other unsung members of the clergy and religious who lead lives of service and support to communities and ask would their presence be missed, or is our country not a better place because of their ministry ? Would you say that their faith formation has had no connection or influence in their roles as championing the causes they work towards or the communities they support ?
Of course, to those who don't believe or practice their faith, no, they won't care about the disappearance of an ageing clergy,they're just going to have to find other targets for an expression of their their secularist fervour. Likewise those who want all traces of church removed from our constitution and public services, they can't wait to see the back of the clergy while they supplant Christian values with their own values of non belief. But for those of us who do "keep the faith", we may well end up attending funeral rites like the one described in Jean Rohou's book, as quoted, a "back to the future" glimpse of early Christian communities for those of us who hang on perhaps?

I am sure those people are of great consequence to the faith communities they serve, but as you rightly point out they are of only distant interest to those whom they do not serve.

However,

they're just going to have to find other targets for an expression of their their secularist fervour

no, this is not true, if religion is not imposing itself on people who do not want to know about it, there will be no need at all for 'secularist fervour'.

And

while they supplant Christian values with their own values of non belief

what values would those be? I think you would find they were remarkably similar to the more positive and equable Christian values, while losing the nonsense and bigotry.

The Hazards of Belief

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