The Hazards of Belief

oscarBravo · 07-03-2016 09:18PM

recedite wrote: »

She was fine travelling through the Christian/atheist countries, but only got a few miles into the first Islamic country she encountered.

You've found a tenuous correlation, and have jumped enthusiastically to a conclusion of causation. Seems reasonable.

...it was the infamous tarrarush, which is...

...a right-wing myth.

recedite · 07-03-2016 09:31PM

So what are your own views on any of these issues oscarBravo?
Or are you content to snipe from the sidelines like Nodin?
Are you saying the unfortunate woman was killed by a myth?

JPNelsforearm · 07-03-2016 10:21PM

recedite wrote: »

So what are your own views on any of these issues oscarBravo?
Or are you content to snipe from the sidelines like Nodin?
Are you saying the unfortunate woman was killed by a myth?

Remember when this didnt happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000004108808/the-killing-of-farkhunda.html

It was actually filmed on an empty lot in universal studio's by the US military and the jews, just to slander Islam and the Arab world.....or something.

All myths by the western imperialists and islamophobes..

oscarBravo · 07-03-2016 10:23PM

recedite wrote: »

Are you saying the unfortunate woman was killed by a myth?

Those are the only possibilities you can consider? She was killed by the "religion of peace", or she was killed by a myth?

She was raped and murdered. Unless you can show that Islam was a causative factor in her rape and murder, you're just mindlessly parroting Daily Mail-esque caricatures.

oscarBravo · 07-03-2016 10:29PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Remember when this didnt happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000004108808/the-killing-of-farkhunda.html

It was actually filmed on an empty lot in universal studio's by the US military and the jews, just to slander Islam and the Arab world.....or something.

All myths by the western imperialists and islamophobes..

So your point, dressed up in juvenile sarcasm, is that religious fundamentalists sometimes do crazy and evil **** in the name of their religion.

Duh.

JPNelsforearm · 07-03-2016 10:33PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Those are the only possibilities you can consider? She was killed by the "religion of peace", or she was killed by a myth?

She was raped and murdered. Unless you can show that Islam was a causative factor in her rape and murder, you're just mindlessly parroting Daily Mail-esque caricatures.

Violence against women by region
Global_Violence_Against_Women_2010.png?ua=1

Islam by region

Its almost as if.......

Nah, pure coincidence.....

recedite · 07-03-2016 10:45PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

So your point, dressed up in juvenile sarcasm..
Duh.

Irony meter explodes.
Still waiting for your own actual views, as opposed to your sarcastic sniping at other peoples views.

Nodin · 08-03-2016 12:15AM

Absolam wrote: »

Well, no point in speaking ill of the dead in fairness... not of this particular unfortunate optimist anyway.

No, I was referring to you not pointing out the obvious motive of the poster.

Recidite wrote:

I can make an educated guess;..............

No, you haven't a clue, and your "educated guess" is one of the more poorly disguised efforts at soap-boxing I've seen in some time.

Recidite wrote:

The belief that all of us are (..........)that has really only come to attention
in Europe during the past year.

But that isn't what happened or why she went. Thus we have to ask - are you actually commenting on this out of pure ignorance of the actual event or are you commenting on this in a deliberate attempt to distort the truth and soapbox?

Recidite wrote:

Still waiting for your own actual views, ..........

Actual views on some incidental comments you dug up in order to distract from you being caught out?

Nodin · 08-03-2016 12:16AM

Did somebody hum that lied about Horst again?

Absolam · 08-03-2016 12:29AM

Nodin wrote: »

No, I was referring to you not pointing out the obvious motive of the poster.

I don't think I can speak for the motive of the poster, but I can speculate that putting your trust in the kindness of local people, regardless of the locality, is a hazardous undertaking. That it happened in Turkey is no indication that it wouldn't happen elsewhere; from 1979 to 2009, there were 675 reported victims of sexual assault and murder in the USA purely along interstate highways.

Shrap · 08-03-2016 09:01AM

Absolam wrote: »

I don't think I can speak for the motive of the poster, but I can speculate that putting your trust in the kindness of local people, regardless of the locality, is a hazardous undertaking. That it happened in Turkey is no indication that it wouldn't happen elsewhere; from 1979 to 2009, there were 675 reported victims of sexual assault and murder in the USA purely along interstate highways.

Quite. It was her own belief that was hazardous to her life.

oscarBravo · 08-03-2016 09:46AM

recedite wrote: »

Still waiting for your own actual views...

Read harder.

Nodin · 08-03-2016 11:43AM

Shrap wrote: »

Quite. It was her own belief that was hazardous to her life.

O yes. That's not why it was posted here though.

recedite · 08-03-2016 09:02PM

Still waiting for your own actual views Nodin, as opposed to your snarking and sniping at other people.

Nodin · 08-03-2016 11:48PM

recedite wrote: »

Still waiting for your own actual views Nodin, as opposed to your snarking and sniping at other people.

My actual views on some incidental views - an Opinion piece in a paper you want to use to slag off either (a) 1 billion plus muslims or (b) 78 million turks?

Do you think you're fooling anyone here? That story is 8 years old. The only reason you put it up here is to do what I suggested above, or because you read this version of it and never bothered to check the details, going straight to the original story rather than link to some dubious source.

http://www.snopes.com/bacca-brides-on-tour/

JPNelsforearm · 09-03-2016 08:50AM

lol at that snopes article, they have contracted PC.

"Turkey is a secular country"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/world/europe/16turkey.html?_r=2

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/06/muslim-light-whats-behind-turkeys-islamization-and-the-protests-against-it/276576/

"it was a lunatic, could have happened to anyone, anywhere"

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/09/turkeywomenmurder.html#

"Turkey’s statistics on gender equality remain abysmal by almost any standard. While in recent years the country has made tremendous strides economically, improved the situation of its ethnic and religious minorities, and is increasingly enjoying greater political clout on the global stage, it has languished near the bottom of the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap reports since the index was created in 2005. It is currently ranked 126 out of 134 countries – lower even than Iran."

"Is increasing religiosity to blame for the rise in murder cases? Saban Ali Duzgun, a professor of theology from Ankara University, told Al-Monitor, “I would say concerning the murders of women that it is religious knowledge about the male-female relationship rather than religion itself that has an indirect effect. I say an indirect effect because I argue that these murders could have been prevented through a conscious and common interpretation. Along with strict penalties for murder, we could develop an education system that disapproves such heinous crimes with appropriate moral and religious teachings.”

"In 2010, the Ministry of Justice revealed the numbers on murdered women: From 2003 until 2010, there has been a 1,400% increase in the number of murdered women. The AKP government came under harsh criticism after the release of this information, so in a last-ditch effort to save its reputation, it started altering the numbers.

Hulya Gulbahar, a lawyer and a women's rights activist and one of the founders and former head of the Association for Supporting Women Candidates in Politics (KADER), wrote a searing column for the T24 news website explaining how, according to updated government statistics after the 1,400% headline, thousands of women were not reported as murdered."

oscarBravo · 09-03-2016 10:03AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

lol at that snopes article, they have contracted PC.

There's something mildly amusing at someone sneering at one of the world's most respected fact-checking websites just because it doesn't confirm their prejudices.

Not remotely surprising: sneering at people who don't share your prejudices is pretty much the only thing I've ever seen you do on this site. But mildly amusing nonetheless.

JPNelsforearm · 09-03-2016 10:34AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's something mildly amusing at someone sneering at one of the world's most respected fact-checking websites just because it doesn't confirm their prejudices.

Not remotely surprising: sneering at people who don't share your prejudices is pretty much the only thing I've ever seen you do on this site. But mildly amusing nonetheless.

Stating "Turkey is a secular country" is not a statement of fact, also, I didnt realise Snopes was above reproach as a fact checking website, its almost as if there are equally fallible and biased humans working there.... Do you seriously think Turkey is a secular country?

I dont necessarily disgaree with their conclusions on the article itself as a factually bare piece of propaganda, they went they extra mile however and added in their own propaganda, which changes things.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-2-religious-commitment/

The sneering is warranted, we have posters excusing Islam and muslims in a manner they wouldnt excuse say, Catholicism and Catholics in relation to the myriad of scandals that have riven the country down the years.

To say that womans death had nothing to do with Islam and the attitude it breeds towards women is like saying Catholicism and the attitude it breeds towards women, had nothing to do with the Kerry babies case, or our own version of honour killings, locking up women in church run institutions(eg Magdelene Laundries)

But what are facts like massive gender inequality, violence against women and mass religiosity in the face of political correctness anyway..... "Prejudice" I suppose.....:rolleyes:

oscarBravo · 09-03-2016 10:59AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Stating "Turkey is a secular country" is not a statement of fact...

I realise that you have a completely different idea of what constitutes a fact from the rest of us, but when you (a) misquote the site you're sneering at, and (b) don't bother following the link they helpfully provided to back up the statement they made, you're really only helping to emphasise your prejudices.

Article 2 of the Turkish constitution states that "The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social state governed by the rule of law...". That makes Turkey an "officially secular country", which is an accurate quote from the article that you're misquoting and sneering at.

Now, you can retreat into bluster about how you personally don't believe it's a secular country, and how your personal beliefs carry more weight in a discussion on the Atheism and Agnosticism forum than do mere facts. If nothing else, it would be an ironic addition to a thread on the hazards of belief.

oldrnwisr · 09-03-2016 11:02AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Stating "Turkey is a secular country" is not a statement of fact, also, I didnt realise Snopes was above reproach as a fact checking website, its almost as if there are equally fallible and biased humans working there.... Do you seriously think Turkey is a secular country?

Yes, Turkey is a secular country. Secularism has to do with the relationship or lack thereof between the state and a religion (or religions). Turkey's secular nature is explicitly stated in Article 2.1 of the Turkish consitution of 1982:

"The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social state governed by the rule of law; bearing in mind the concepts of public peace, national solidarity and justice; respecting human rights; loyal to the nationalism of Atatürk, and based on the fundamental tenets set forth in the Preamble."

and reinforced by other clauses such as Article 10 which prohibits discrimination on the grounds of religious belief among other things.

The beliefs of the population say nothing about the nature of the state itself. If it were then Ireland would be a Catholic country instead of what it is, a secular republic populated by a majority of Catholics.

In fact the link you yourself quoted shows that Turkey is not the bastion of extremist Muslim belief that you would like to portray. While 97% of the population professes belief in Islam, only 2 thirds of people say that religion is actually important to them. Only 27% of Turkish muslims observe all five salat and only 44% attend Mosque once a week or more and 23% never attend the mosque. In fact, although professed belief is higher, it seems that Turkish muslims have a functional relationship with their religion similar to catholics in this country. Levels of mass attendance and religious importance broadly correlate with views of Catholics here. In fact, it would be better to describe Turkey as a nation of lapsed muslims. Certainly, in my experience a lot of the Turkish muslims I've worked/studied with had no problems having pints or a Full Irish the next morning.

But sure, let's hear all about the evil Muslims.

EDIT: Beaten to it by OscarBravo.

JPNelsforearm · 09-03-2016 11:29AM

And North Korea calls itself the Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea.... So what.

Article 4. The sovereignty of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea resides in the workers, peasants, working intellectuals and all other working people.

Article 7. Deputies to the organs of State power at all levels have close ties with their constituents and are accountable to them for their work. The electors may recall the deputies they have elected if the latter are not to be trusted.

Article 67. Citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, demonstration and association. The State shall guarantee conditions for the free activity of democratic political parties and social organizations.

Article 68. Citizens have freedom of religious beliefs. This right is granted by approving the construction of religious buildings and the holding of religious ceremonies. Religion must not be used as a pretext for drawing in foreign forces or for harming the State and social order.

Im being hyperbolic, but do you want me to find every country that does not reflect their constitutional principles? Saying Turkey is a secular country as an excuse for Islamic derived violence against women is being dishonest, its not a painting of the true facts on the ground. Lets quote constitutions against one another in a pedant-off...

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5833/secular-turkey

Also, I never said Turkey "is a bastion of muslim extremists", I was merely pointing out the outsized rates of gender violence in addition to its populations religiosity, certain Catholic countries in South America would be the same(though on a lesser scale..) nominally "secular" states, but with an extremely religious population.

Nodin · 09-03-2016 11:46AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

To say that womans death had nothing to do with Islam and the attitude it breeds towards women is like saying Catholicism and the attitude it breeds towards women, had nothing to do with the Kerry babies case, or our own version of honour killings, locking up women in church run institutions(eg Magdelene Laundries)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So every woman murdered here is to do with Catholicism?

recedite · 09-03-2016 11:50AM

Turkey was made "officially" a secular country by the well respected Ataturk a long time ago. However the current govt. is led by Erdogan, a man who was imprisoned for religious intolerance while he was fronting an openly Islamist party. Nowadays he claims to be "conservative", which seems to better suit Turkey's ambitions to become an EU member.

Although the party is described as an Islamist party in some media, party officials reject those claims. According to former minister Hüseyin Çelik, "In the Western press, when the AK Party administration – the ruling party of the Turkish Republic – is being named, unfortunately most of the time 'Islamic,' 'Islamist,' 'mildly Islamist,' 'Islamic-oriented,' 'Islamic-based' or 'with an Islamic agenda,' and similar language is being used. These characterizations do not reflect the truth, and they sadden us." Çelik added, "The AK Party is a conservative democratic party. The AK Party's conservatism is limited to moral and social issues." Also in a separate speech made in 2005, Prime Minister Erdoğan stated, "We are not an Islamic party, and we also refuse labels such as Muslim-democrat." Erdoğan went on to say that the AK Party's agenda is limited to "conservative democracy"

source

"Authoritarian" might be a better description, given his recent takeover of any press/media that oppose him.

recedite · 09-03-2016 12:06PM

Nodin wrote: »

So every woman murdered here is to do with Catholicism?

Always the questions.

Assuming that Snopes article you linked to is supposed to represent your actual opinion, then....
It was a disappointing effort by Snopes. Normally they make a genuine effort to debunk some erroneous story, but in this case they do not even attempt to address any of the facts, because they are all true. They concentrate on two red herrings;

1. The crime happened in 2008, and is therefore supposed to be irrelevant or out of date now.

2. It happened in an "officially" secular country. Therefore the implication is that if she had wandered into a village in neighbouring Greece, which is also officially secular, the same thing was equally likely to happen.

So a multitude of Greek villagers might have raped and killed her, and then local public opinion might have said afterwards "what did she expect, a woman travelling alone, and not wearing the correct attire".
I don't think so.

Besides, as I clearly stated earlier, the belief of the woman was the "hazard of belief" being referred to when I posted the story. Her belief was that everyone else's beliefs were equivalent to her own. But sometimes the differences really are more than skin deep.

oldrnwisr · 09-03-2016 12:10PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

And North Korea calls itself the Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea.... So what.

Article 4. The sovereignty of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea resides in the workers, peasants, working intellectuals and all other working people.

Article 7. Deputies to the organs of State power at all levels have close ties with their constituents and are accountable to them for their work. The electors may recall the deputies they have elected if the latter are not to be trusted.

Article 67. Citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, demonstration and association. The State shall guarantee conditions for the free activity of democratic political parties and social organizations.

Article 68. Citizens have freedom of religious beliefs. This right is granted by approving the construction of religious buildings and the holding of religious ceremonies. Religion must not be used as a pretext for drawing in foreign forces or for harming the State and social order.

Im being hyperbolic, but do you want me to find every country that does not reflect their constitutional principles? Saying Turkey is a secular country as an excuse for Islamic derived violence against women is being dishonest, its not a painting of the true facts on the ground. Lets quote constitutions against one another in a pedant-off...

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5833/secular-turkey

You seem to have entirely missed the point. Secularism describes the relationship between the state and religion NOT the population and religion. You can have a state which is secular and still be filled with lots of religious ****wits, look at the USA for example.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Also, I never said Turkey "is a bastion of muslim extremists", I was merely pointing out the outsized rates of gender violence in addition to its populations religiosity, certain Catholic countries in South America would be the same(though on a lesser scale..) nominally "secular" states, but with an extremely religious population.

OK, two points here.

Firstly, Turkey isn't alone in having outsized rates of gender violence. South Africa, for example, a country with a Christian population of 79.8% and a muslim population of just 1.5% has arguably the highest rape rate in the world. Studies have found, for example, that the rate of rape offenders among male youth is that 17.2% . Also, the point was not the broad rates of gender violence in Turkey but one unfortunate woman on a misguided quest being gang raped and murdered. But I'm sure that if her death is attributable to the brutal attitudes of Islam to women then I'm sure that the violent gang rape in 2013 of SIX Spanish women in Acapulco says just as much about Catholicism and women surely. The reality is that that woman's brutal end in Turkey could have happened anywhere, Limerick, Dublin, any city with any kind of seedy neighbourhood in any country in the world. But because it happened in a Muslim country then it's OK to use her death as a stick to beat all Muslims with. Makes sense.

Secondly, as I already pointed out in my last post, while Turkey has a high level of professed belief (97%), the actual level of religiosity is quite low. Less than half of all Muslims in Turkey pray all five salat and less than half attend mosque every week. In fact, it seems as though about a fifth of Muslims in Turkey are functionally atheist. Contrast this, for example, with Cameroon, where 99% of the population are Muslim, 96% say that religion is important to them and 95% pray all five salat every day. That is a country with a highly religious populace. Turkey isn't.

recedite · 09-03-2016 12:28PM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

The reality is that that woman's brutal end in Turkey could have happened anywhere, Limerick, Dublin...

I don't think so. Almost unbelievable the lengths people will go to defending their PC position.

Nodin · 09-03-2016 12:30PM

recedite wrote: »

Always the questions.

Assuming that Snopes article you linked to is supposed to represent your actual opinion, then....
It was a disappointing effort by Snopes. Normally they make a genuine effort to debunk some erroneous story, but in this case they do not even attempt to address any of the facts, because they are all true. They concentrate on two red herrings;

1. The crime happened in 2008, and is therefore supposed to be irrelevant or out of date now.

2. It happened in an "officially" secular country. Therefore the implication is that if she had wandered into a village in neighbouring Greece, which is also officially secular, the same thing was equally likely to happen.

So a multitude of Greek villagers might have raped and killed her, and then local public opinion might have said afterwards "what did she expect, a woman travelling alone, and not wearing the correct attire".
I don't think so.
.

This really is desperately poor and shoddy "logic" .

She was not killed by a "multitude" of villagers in any country.

What "local public opinion"? Have you lost touch with reality entirely?

recedite wrote: »

Besides, as I clearly stated earlier, the belief of the woman was the "hazard of belief" being referred to when I posted the story. Her belief was that everyone else's beliefs were equivalent to her own. But sometimes the differences really are more than skin deep.

Whats this nonsense now? A source please.

oscarBravo · 09-03-2016 12:43PM

recedite wrote: »

I don't think so.

...because nobody has ever been raped or murdered in Limerick or Dublin.

That's two people who have no need for pesky facts, when they've got perfectly good beliefs.

oldrnwisr · 09-03-2016 12:57PM

recedite wrote: »

I don't think so. Almost unbelievable the lengths people will go to defending their PC position.

Why don't you think so?

There's certainly precedent for it.

Houston, Texas - Jennifer Ertman & Elizabeth Pena (1993)

Western Cape, South Africa - Anene Booysen (2013)

Johannesburg, South Africa - 2 unnamed women (2015)

Indiana, USA - Amanda Blackburn (2015)

Mykolaiv, Ukraine - Oksana Makar (2012)

Miami, Florida - Ana Maria Angel (2002)

Manchester, UK - Suzanne Capper (1992)

Bermuda - Becky Middleton (1996)

Now, as Steve Rogers would say, I can do this all day, but I think you get my point. Women being gang-raped and murdered can and does happen all over the world. But suddenly because it happens in a seemingly Muslim country then it must be because of the Islamic views of women. It's a simplistic interpretation of a reality which is far more complicated. There are lots of factors which feed into a nation's crime rate, education, poverty, the justice/penal system etc. Trying to narrow it down to a single factor like religion, in a country with fairly low religiosity (for a Muslim country) is a remarkable display of faulty cause and effect.

recedite · 09-03-2016 01:15PM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Why don't you think so?

There's certainly precedent for it.....

In most of your examples the perpetrators were criminal gangs. In places like Mexico drugs barons can operate with impunity because they control the local police. South Africa has a terrible crime rate. We already know that.
Turkey does not have a particularly high crime rate in terms of theft and car-jackings, so it is not equivalent to SA in overall crime rate.

What we see in the story of this Italian woman's death is a whole community which is complicit to some extent, in condoning or failing to prevent this particular crime from happening. That factor is absent from all of your examples.
Did you actually watch this video?

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Remember when this didnt happen.
http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000004108808/the-killing-of-farkhunda.html

Are you going to tell me that too, could just as easily have happened in Dublin or Limerick, if somebody had been (wrongly as it turned out) accused of burning a bible?

The Hazards of Belief

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