Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

eviltwin · 20-02-2016 05:27PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

She did tell people. Her mam was delighted because she wanted grandchildren and loads of her friends already have babies. She would have faced way, way more social pressure if she'd said she never wanted kids!

No, she would have faced it in the small bubble that is her family, her community. I've met families like your cousins but if you think that attitude represents wider society you are mistaken.

One eyed Jack · 20-02-2016 05:28PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Maybe we come from very different social backgrounds. Where I come from, it's common, acceptable and even expected that girls will have at least one child by the age of 20. It's the thing to do. Nobody questions that, yet suggest that you might not have any kids and they look at your as if you've just poisoned their dog.

I don't think we do. I've worked with children and their parents from different backgrounds of all sorts across the socioeconomic spectrum and I've yet to meet one I could say hadn't the potential to be a great parent if given the right support. For me it's never been about what is or isn't "ideal", as every person, just like every child, is going to be different. I've worked with young people who were written off early as "never likely to amount to much", and their children "would never have a chance". Well, clearly they won't amount to much if you aren't willing to give people a chance and give young people like your cousin the support she and her child need, instead of the judgement they don't.

You don't like it when people pass judgement upon you for your lifestyle choices, so knowing how that feels, why would you even think to pass judgement upon anyone else for their lifestyle choices that you disagree with?

(let's not make it all about your cousin either!)

LeeLooLee · 20-02-2016 05:33PM

Tasden wrote: »

Well its either about your cousin and your cousin alone in which case that is not "young mothers" generally. Or its about young mothers generally which is the category I once fell into.

You cannot say nobody questioned her decision. You're questioning it right now! Have a read of any AH thread on entitlement/single mothers/social welfare and you'll see plenty of people questioning her decision despite knowing nothing about her. Try walking around with a pram at 17/18/19 years of age and you'll soon know very well who is questioning your decision. Bringing your child to hospital at 18/19 and knowing exactly why the doctors are asking certain questions that they wouldn't dream of asking an older parent. Attending your child's first day of school and standing out like a sore thumb because you're the youngest there- once again it is always glaringly obvious who is questioning/judging your decision in those moments. And even worse, they are feeling perfectly entitled to do so despite knowing absolutely nothing about your situation.

But you're talking about a completely different thing. I suppose I'm talking about my own social circle from my area where teenage mothers are absolutely the norm. I had 3 female friends on my street growing up and all of them were pregnant by 16. It's a deprived area with very high unemployment and most people leave school with no qualifications. When I'm home and around my family/friends, they think it's really weird that I have no kids and am not planning to have any anytime soon. Not ever having kids is unthinkable to them. It's even been suggested that there's something wrong with me or that I'm selfish. I do want kids, I just ideally want to be confident that I can do the best job possible bringing them up. It's strange to me that choosing not to have kids is 'selfish' - to me, it's anything but selfish.

And young mothers might be stigmatised by wider society when they/their kids are still young, but years down the line, their choices are considered more 'normal' than those of a woman who has never had children. Comparing a 50-year-old who has 2 grown-up children and a 50-year-old who is childless, for example. Can you honestly dispute that?

Tasden · 20-02-2016 05:53PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

But you're talking about a completely different thing. I suppose I'm talking about my own social circle from my area where teenage mothers are absolutely the norm. I had 3 female friends on my street growing up and all of them were pregnant by 16. It's a deprived area with very high unemployment and most people leave school with no qualifications. When I'm home and around my family/friends, they think it's really weird that I have no kids and am not planning to have any anytime soon. Not ever having kids is unthinkable to them. It's even been suggested that there's something wrong with me or that I'm selfish. I do want kids, I just ideally want to be confident that I can do the best job possible bringing them up. It's strange to me that choosing not to have kids is 'selfish' - to me, it's anything but selfish.

And young mothers might be stigmatised by wider society when they/their kids are still young, but years down the line, their choices are considered more 'normal' than those of a woman who has never had children. Comparing a 50-year-old who has 2 grown-up children and a 50-year-old who is childless, for example. Can you honestly dispute that?

That's my background too though. 6 people in my year were pregnant at the same time as myself- 6th year, all 16/17. The other 5 dropped out as far as I know. It is common for younger girls to become pregnant where I am from. It is not "accepted" though. And despite it being common, they are judged by people in our community. And very harshly.

Yeah I would dispute that, honestly.

Goat Paddock · 21-02-2016 06:50PM

With the uncertainty in the economy concerning jobs having kids is a scary prospect unless your very settled in your career /job

Addle · 25-03-2016 12:43PM

FYI
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/i-fought-a-four-year-battle-with-the-nhs-to-be-sterilised-at-30/

One eyed Jack · 25-03-2016 12:56PM

Addle wrote: »

FYI
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/i-fought-a-four-year-battle-with-the-nhs-to-be-sterilised-at-30/

She's very articulate, but I laughed at this bit -

Wide-eyed, they ask "but WHY?" – and there is no answer on this planet that satisfies.

I’ve been tempted to dryly say “I hate kids” - but why should I have to lie? I don’t hate kids; I just don’t want them. You know when you stroke someone’s gorgeous, massive dog but don’t want to own yourself? Same feeling.

Then they try the guilt trip.

“Don’t you think that’s a bit selfish?” – as if I’m denying potential humans their only chance at life. Well, I suppose I am. But women’s ovaries contain thousands upon thousands of eggs. Do I have to birth them all? Does your husband realise he left an entire civilisation in a tissue last night?

Finally, the kicker: “Who’ll care for you when you’re old?” I usually joke about high-class retirement homes, but secretly wonder if they realise how few people’s kids stick around to help them in old age. Or if they’ve noticed that they just accused me of selfishness, and then advocated creating a human for free healthcare.

Ouch!! :pac:

RealJohn · 26-03-2016 08:30PM

I'm guessing this has already been pointed out but I presume the reason it's considered 'taboo' not to want to have children is because the desire to reproduce is generally considered the second strongest impulse any living thing has (after self preservation) so I imagine it would seem like something of a disfunction not to want it. I mean, it's frowned upon to want to kill yourself too because it violates a fundamental law of nature so I imagine the same is true or not wanting to reproduce.

Jack B. Badd · 27-03-2016 10:50PM

Addle wrote: »

FYI
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/i-fought-a-four-year-battle-with-the-nhs-to-be-sterilised-at-30/

Even within the UK, I think this is totally dependent on your doctor's personal opinions. There doesn't seem to be a standard process. For example, I had my tubes tied at 28, & fair enough I paid for it myself rather than getting it done through the NHS, but all I needed was to have a 15 minute phone call with my GP to get her to supply a letter of support. But it still kind of annoys me that I needed that letter due to my age. Like they thought I hadn't thought it through at 28 but magically at 30 I would have suddenly considered it fully therefore I wouldn't have needed the letter. As far as I'm concerned, I became an adult at 18 & legally there's no sliding scale when it comes to my reproductive autonomy - I'm not "more of an adult" at 30-odd than I was 10 years ago.

As for the taboo aspect, I think people are getting better in general at not expressing their judgemental attitudes to my face (or I have just trained those around me more by being very blunt for the past decade). But it's basically the fact that being childfree by choice is not the norm, the same as being vegetarian, unmarried, not a drinker or the parent of a single child. That we're not in the majority seems to give some twits the notion that they can comment freely on us. But on the upside, we have the joy of Childfree Bingo to combat them with :-D
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4027/4251210572_0bb9dc4b79.jpg

KikiDee · 30-03-2016 10:02AM

Is it still a taboo? I mean I understand it being sensitive at times depending on the people you're with and their situation but is 'taboo' to strong of a word to use? Yes there's 'pressure' there from people, 'Oh you'd want to get a hurry on', 'the clock is ticking' and all that jazz but generally speaking, I think that's just something people say isn't it??

Lux23 · 30-03-2016 02:00PM

I am completely confused about this right now. I am 34 on my next birthday so I do really need to make a decision about having children soon. But I am not sure if I really do. I think the pressure of the "biological clock" is confusing me into thinking that being a parent is something that I really want rather than what society expects of me?

How do you know if you want children? I hear of women feeling a longing when they see a baby, but I don't experience anything like that.

Dial Hard · 30-03-2016 02:25PM

Lux23 wrote:

How do you know if you want children? I hear of women feeling a longing when they see a baby, but I don't experience anything like that.

I think it's more a case of knowing for definite that you don't want them. Anyone I know (myself included) who doesn't want them has known it, unequivocally, their entire life.

Lux23 · 30-03-2016 03:37PM

I wish I could be sure.

Faith · 30-03-2016 04:47PM

I feel like you, Lux. I'm 95% sure that I never want children, and my husband and I are on the same page, but there's a sliver of doubt. I don't want children, but I keep expecting to want them. But I'm simultaneously terrified that if I had one, I'd immediately regret it.

Jack B. Badd · 30-03-2016 05:08PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

I think it's more a case of knowing for definite that you don't want them. Anyone I know (myself included) who doesn't want them has known it, unequivocally, their entire life.

I'm not sure that's the case. I know a number of people who are on the fence, they're not dead set against kids, they're just kind of "meh". And a couple are old enough that it isn't going to happen now & they don't seem to regret it.

Lux - there are a number of "on the fence" forums online. It may be helpful to talk to others who also aren't sure.

meeeeh · 30-03-2016 07:23PM

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

I'm not sure that's the case. I know a number of people who are on the fence, they're not dead set against kids, they're just kind of "meh". And a couple are old enough that it isn't going to happen now & they don't seem to regret it.

Lux - there are a number of "on the fence" forums online. It may be helpful to talk to others who also aren't sure.

Yeah I think I was one of those people. I have two kids now and don't regret it for one bit. I got pregnant when I was thirty and in stable relationship. I would have absolutely no problem having an abortion if it didn't feel right but I wanted to keep the baby. At the same time I would be OK if I couldn't have kids. I am glad though I do.

Frankly I think there is significant part of population who would be fine having kids and equally fine not having kids. I think there are also people who would be miserable not able to have kids and miserable having kids.

Addle · 30-03-2016 08:54PM

I haven't known my entire life, and if I win the lotto tonight, my decision would change.
I don't want children because I can't afford to give them the life I believe they need and they deserve.

Malari · 30-03-2016 09:02PM

I've known all my adult life. Since I first had sex and was terrified of getting pregnant. No external thing would ever change my mind. And I know at this stage I'm not going to wake up one day and think I want kids. I've never doubted.

Dial Hard · 30-03-2016 09:41PM

Jack B. Badd wrote:

I'm not sure that's the case. I know a number of people who are on the fence, they're not dead set against kids, they're just kind of "meh". And a couple are old enough that it isn't going to happen now & they don't seem to regret it.

But that's exactly my point - the people who know they don't want them have never been on the fence or "meh". They *are* dead set against kids.

Gatica · 28-04-2016 04:44PM

Interesting thread.

Addle wrote: »

FYI
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/i-fought-a-four-year-battle-with-the-nhs-to-be-sterilised-at-30/

I liked this quote:

Telegraph wrote:

Finally, the kicker: “Who’ll care for you when you’re old?” I usually joke about high-class retirement homes, but secretly wonder if they realise how few people’s kids stick around to help them in old age. Or if they’ve noticed that they just accused me of selfishness, and then advocated creating a human for free healthcare.

She's got a point.

I personally would think that it's generally considered taboo not to have children by a certain age, and not to want children, especially for women. We'd been getting a few hints off friends with kids last couple of years about time flying and best to get started now, etc... Family trying to pry "discreetly". I've seen it with other couples too, being told they're gonna pray for them (assuming they're not able to have kids cos they'd none). A woman holding a puppy a certain way and someone commenting that she's getting maternal now (she'd recently got married), "wait and see, I'm telling you", as if it's anyone's business.

Just before our wedding had a family member ask about when are we gonna start having kids, cos obviously that was the next step after marriage

hmm... I dunno, I don't need to have kids to be happy. Tbh, it's not that I wasn't going to, I just kind of wanted them to back off with personal questions. I know they're family, but it's really no one else's business what my husband and I plan for our own family life. The conversation kind of turned about how rewarding it is to have kids, etc... Personally, I just hate that many people have this notion that you must be getting married cos you're dying to procreate, cos sure why else bother to marry! I didn't like that conversation about our upcoming wedding would immediately stir conversations about therefore when am I gonna start popping them out.. honestly! I pretty much cut it short at that and thankfully was backed up by my aunt who added that she knew what I meant, she wouldn't be less happy if she didn't have kids. She'd two, but they didn't define her. She's her own person. I quite admire that.

As a small kid I like babies and played with all the baby dolls. However, from my teens on I kind of decided I didn't care much for kids. Except for the fact that I love my OH and I could see us having a wonderful family together, I'd have probably been non-the-less happy without having them. I haven't really had that maternal instinct, or a longing for children, I'm quite happy as is. My OH's got wonderful nephews and nieces and loves them very much and I know would make a great parent. I'll probably be the stricter one, as I'm not really a push-over with kids.

Kids do require a lot of attention, and it bugs me that parents quite often allow them to dominate conversations and make decisions on some plans (fine to do within your own family, but kind of imposing when other adults are involved). I imagine I must've been a pain as a kid

I really admire anyone who's able to work with kids as it really must require the patience of a saint.

I also don't like when parents presume everyone wants to coo over their baby and pass it around. I try to make myself scarce during such occasions or if stuck, oblige for a respectably long enough period of time before passing them on. Babies don't smell amazing and birth, though it might be natural, is not a beautiful thing, it's quite gross and horrendous for the mother. I know they're usually delighted with the sight of their baby afterwards, but still. The baby also doesn't look all that cute recently born. It only seems amazing to the parents themselves.

RacoonQueen · 11-05-2016 10:15PM

Just read this on Huffington Post. I like the bit about how she says people asked her what she was going to do when (not if) she changed her mind...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anjali-sareen/post_11812_b_9828514.html

R.D. aka MR.D · 12-05-2016 02:06AM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Just read this on Huffington Post. I like the bit about how she says people asked her what she was going to do when (not if) she changed her mind...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anjali-sareen/post_11812_b_9828514.html

Interesting article. I actually went to the doc to ask to get my tubes tied last week and the answer was basically 'no'. The nurse i talked to was super supportive and was saying it's so backwards a woman couldn't choose and she was really accepting of the fact that i didn't want kids and gave me tons of advice for my husband to get a vasectomy and he'll have no problems and so on. She must have been in her 50s.

The doctor on the other hand was way more dismissive about the whole thing and she definitely had the attitude of 'how strange'. I felt very judged. She was early 30s.

So, i don't know. Anyway, there apparently is zero chance of having control over your own body here! It's fine that my husband can get the snip but i would much rather have the option of being in control of that myself. Why should he have to go through the surgery?

Jack B. Badd · 12-05-2016 07:59AM

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Interesting article. I actually went to the doc to ask to get my tubes tied last week and the answer was basically 'no'. The nurse i talked to was super supportive and was saying it's so backwards a woman couldn't choose and she was really accepting of the fact that i didn't want kids and gave me tons of advice for my husband to get a vasectomy and he'll have no problems and so on. She must have been in her 50s.

The doctor on the other hand was way more dismissive about the whole thing and she definitely had the attitude of 'how strange'. I felt very judged. She was early 30s.

So, i don't know. Anyway, there apparently is zero chance of having control over your own body here! It's fine that my husband can get the snip but i would much rather have the option of being in control of that myself. Why should he have to go through the surgery?

Not sure if you are going to be paying for it out of your own pocket, but if you are, you might be worth getting in touch with Marie Stopes to see what your options are. I had my tubes tied with them while living in the UK & they were excellent. I had to get a letter of support from my GP due to my age but I don't think that's an issue if you're 30+.

Gatica · 12-05-2016 08:30AM

Kinda infuriating reading it, with people pushing their ideologies onto her.

It is a patriarchal society, and many people do still think their greatest achievement in life are their kids. Hear it all the time in people's interviews on TV. Unfortunately, I'd say it'll be a very long time before people become accepting of others' choices around marriage, partnership and choices about procreating. The worst reason for saying she'd change her mind that she listed was “what if you meet a man that wants children?” - feckin seriously?! Does she not have a say? Apparently no. Also playing the selfishness card on a person's personal choice seems so bizarre, for example you'd never dream of telling someone with 4 kids, you must be selfish as you couldn't possibly afford to give 4 kids everything as you could with 2... you'd rightly get a "mind your own f-- business".

IMO both choices are made from a certain amount of selfishness, not having kids so you can be free to do as you please, having them so you have someone to carry on your genes/line. In any case, either choice should be one's own.

RacoonQueen · 12-05-2016 08:40AM

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

So, i don't know. Anyway, there apparently is zero chance of having control over your own body here!

This is the part of your post that makes me so sad. It's very archaic...though in the article the woman had the same problem initially. It's bizarre that we cannot make this decision ourselves, but regarding the vasectomy instead, I guess the way they look at it is that the vasectomy is reversible so in the off chance you do change your mind you can reverse the vasectomy. Also, perhaps it's more believeable to them that a man wouldn't want kids...cos of course men never want to be fathers, they only have kids to please the woman whose only aim in life is to be a mother :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I don't understand why it's so hard to believe that a woman would not want to have children, at all, and that she would know this from quite a young age. It seems from reading this thread that most/all the women saying they absolutely do not want children all felt this way from a young age. I've been saying it since I was in my teens, I'm even more adamant not that my siblings have children.

IrishAlice · 12-05-2016 08:50AM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Just read this on Huffington Post. I like the bit about how she says people asked her what she was going to do when (not if) she changed her mind...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anjali-sareen/post_11812_b_9828514.html

A really interesting read.

I've had people say many of the same things to me whenever I say I don't want children. The comment about not being complete without children really stung.

Especially because it was said to me by a friend who knew for a long time that I felt that way and said that to me shortly after having her first child. It was like because her whole life and outlook had changed she could no longer appreciate mine.

Sapphire · 12-05-2016 10:56AM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I don't understand why it's so hard to believe that a woman would not want to have children, at all, and that she would know this from quite a young age. It seems from reading this thread that most/all the women saying they absolutely do not want children all felt this way from a young age. I've been saying it since I was in my teens, I'm even more adamant not that my siblings have children.

Are we surprised though? I mean, its only just another way that our country are condescendingly patting us on the head and telling us what they think is best for our reproductive organs-occupied or not.

The more I think about the pro-choice/pro-life legislation the more I see that it's not just about abortion. It affects our healthcare from the moment we want to choose a contraceptive all the way through to menopause, whether or not you have ever been in a situation where a termination was ever a fleeting thought. Whether or not you are pro-choice or pro-life or have no opinion either way.

Some of you who have always known you would never have or want a baby and have wanted tubal ligation for decades are fobbed off because the legislation tells clinicians that we really don't know our own minds and that we are better served with someone else deciding for us. That's the same thinking that up until recently in this country forced women to undergo painful symphysiotomy procedures, that forced women to undergo pregnancy after pregnancy with no respite because contraception was illegal or decided that a married man could legally rape his wife.

Thankfully views and opinions are slowly changing, but as long as this country tells its citizens that women cannot make choices over her own body - no matter what they are - there will always be this condescending head patting going on in some form.

Gatica · 12-05-2016 11:05AM

^^ Totally agree...:mad:

eviltwin · 12-05-2016 11:20AM

Well said Sapphire. The system is so unfair towards women. If you know you don't want children you can't easily avail of sterilisation but if you are unlucky enough to find yourself pregnant you can't terminate it either.

RacoonQueen · 12-05-2016 11:35AM

eviltwin wrote: »

Well said Sapphire. The system is so unfair towards women. If you know you don't want children you can't easily avail of sterilisation but if you are unlucky enough to find yourself pregnant you can't terminate it either.

But sure all women want to be mothers, that's why they're here. If they want to be sterilised or want an abortion there is something wrong with them and they should see a psychologist....:rolleyes:

Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

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