Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

ukoda · 10-02-2016 10:38PM

BoatMad wrote: »

yes I know that, but its not used in the same way as courier companies. its not an integral part of their delivery strategy

I know that, but with an upgrade to the tech it could very easily help the postman find a non unique address using eircode

BoatMad · 10-02-2016 10:39PM

ukoda wrote: »

I know that, but with an upgrade to the tech it could very easily help the postman find a non unique address using eircode

Ive no doubt AN post will do this. I know they are coming under massive pressure to back Eircode.

TheChizler · 10-02-2016 11:09PM

clewbays wrote: »

I doubt An Post have a database of persons names in urban areas?

Good point!

Even though anyone Ive seen lately are addressed to 'The Householder'.

Sam Russell · 10-02-2016 11:21PM

BoatMad wrote: »

I get a lot of stuff from the UK, wouldn't dream of letting the conventional mail business near any of it ( 10 days from the UK , seriously crap).

I got something sent from the UK by post - it was meant to be couriered by DHL. It spent 5 days at Heathrow, courtesy of the UK Royal Mail. It was also very expensive to send. Nothing to do with An Post.

plodder · 10-02-2016 11:28PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I got something sent from the UK by post - it was meant to be couriered by DHL. It spent 5 days at Heathrow, courtesy of the UK Royal Mail. It was also very expensive to send. Nothing to do with An Post.

I notice we've just had about three pages incl.:-
- description of the UK postcode
- justification of the Eircode design

none of which has anything to do with Eircode implementation. Any chance you might stop the micro-modding of the thread, or else apply your rule consistently to all posters?

clewbays · 10-02-2016 11:55PM

plodder wrote: »

I notice we've just had about three pages incl.:-
- description of the UK postcode
- justification of the Eircode design

none of which has anything to do with Eircode implementation.

How is the posting below about design rather than implementation? The posting specifically raises a query as to whether the owners of the electoral register have taken implementation steps to make use of Eircodes and a related post asked if they have taken steps to gather the missing Eircodes so as to have a fully functional Eircode file.

clewbays wrote: »

That must mean that the electoral register was one of the pre-coded public sector databases. I wonder have the owners of the database used the Eircode to look for multiple registrations etc.

gizmo555 · 11-02-2016 12:09AM

clewbays wrote: »

That must mean that the electoral register was one of the pre-coded public sector databases. I wonder have the owners of the database used the Eircode to look for multiple registrations etc.

I don't think so. My name's on the electoral register, but the FG leaflet was addressed to "The Household". In every past election at my current address, they wrote to me by name.

Mountainsandh · 11-02-2016 12:10AM

BoatMad wrote: »

it makes complete sense,if that is where you go to deliver the mail for 100 addresses, like say an apartment block.

the last thing you want is close but not identical locations for the code. so that a logistics has to then try and interpret what street these codes refer to, this is a very common issue with the UK PAF file, where you cant tell what side of the street the address is on.

BoatMad wrote: »

Couriers can read " apartment 14 floor 2" with the best of them. i find , the purpose of the postal code, is to get them accurately to the door of the complex. Few couriers can these days get directly to the apartment door anyway

BoatMad wrote: »

Several like DHL and nightline are integrating into their systems, goggle maps will have it in 2016 as will Garmin, sure but its " too complex", maybe if you learnt programming yesterday ....

The decoding system is very very simple, buy you have to license the database. its ( eircode) actually a very simple code, that basically means nothing to humans, thats good. Does a VIN number on a car mean anything to you . Means a lot to Revenues computers however.

The political system of forcing people to have unique address , would simply never fly in ireland. I mean how many people use the L numbered road in their addresses. we love our townlands. There was never any political will , to force address change.

Eircode solves precisely your problem, if you have the eircode you will never need to seperate Tom Murphy ballinaclash, from his uncle Tom murphy ballinaclash,
this year you will be able to type their eircodes into your google maps and never have to worry about non unique addresses again !!! and drive to their door

BoatMad wrote: »

if you add an Eircode to the address , they will deliver it just as well,

Eircode is and can be used by An Post to do sorting , its not used at the local level , because of the manpower a post company throws at the problem.

How about these ?

plodder · 11-02-2016 12:16AM

BoatMad wrote: »

as someone who has been involved in mapping and logistics software for 20 years, I feel I know a little bit about UK post codes.

The positional accuracy varies but can be out by several hundred metres in certain cases, and in general is not accurate to to anything like you say.

The PAF uses a 100m grid, UK post codes cant in reality be resolved to anything better then that with any certainly, many post codes in the UK will share the share two points on the PAF grid.

Now there are extensions like the ForGIS, that DO locate the postal code to 1m , but its not fully complete and doesn't cover the channel islands for example.

Eircode on the other hand , directly links to GeoDirectory , which contains positional data accurate to survey standards for mail address locations.

Modern computer orientated codes shouldn't be designed to be human readable, its far easier to build then to be efficient machine based lookup systems, which the PAF is not by the way. does the barcode on your corn flakes mean anything to you - no it doesnt , a computer however is happy looking it up from millions of items in a price lookup table

The GPO does have an Eircode. ( D01 F5P2)

Courier companies will of course use Eircode as their logistics software suppliers add support, its quite easy to simply use the GeoDirectory lookup to then build local sorting tables or route maps, especially as we will see , like in the UK , specialised databases appearing that are aimed at routing and sorting.

I simply dont understand , ill-informed anti-Eircode rants , usually by people with little or no understanding of how modern computer systems and mapping use underlying geo-data.

as for

stuff and nonsense, a well organised geo database engine can extract positional information from the Geodirectory and easily build custom sorting or route maps, Courir logistics software does it today by geo positional data, eircode can resolved to that , hence easy integration . Humans dont sort squat these days , do human understanding of the codes is useless.

dont believe the nonsense spouted on radios by courier companies, they are in competition and one likes what the other hates ( or more likely their logistics software sucks and cant be easily modified)

Eircode is simply a hash into GeoDirectory , that fine , Geodirecory has all the information necessary to build anything a courier needs.

haters just hate it seems

- Description of UK postcode.
- Justification of Eircode
- Swipe at people on other side of 'debate'

Not seeing anything much to do with Eircode implementation.

marmurr1916 · 11-02-2016 12:45AM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I would be reluctant to give my precise address ie Eircode to Lidl, or other chains online or in brick and mortar stores.
I have no problem keying in a postcode, or telling the cashier, in France, on the other hand, for the simple reason that this little number is only part of my address. (I won't be bothered with unsolicited post for example)

Edit : relative to an older post, couldn't see more recent ones for some reason.

Obviously nobody's suggesting that Lidl is acting illegally...

If any company's website offers a branch finding via Eircode entry function, it couldn't be used to send unsolicited post without breaching data protection law.

A website would have to inform you that entering your Eircode meant that you were agreeing to have marketing mail posted to you and would have to give you the option of refusing to allow marketing mail to be posted to you.

I entered my UK postcode into a website today to find the nearest branch of a chain store.

I would have had no problem entering an Eircode into the Irish version of their website because I'm confident they wouldn't breach data protection law by using the Eircode to send me unsolicited marketing mail.

Any company that does this is liable to face fines and sanctions.

Implementing Eircode use on a website for unlawful purposes is clearly not going to be something that reputable companies do.

Mountainsandh · 11-02-2016 01:14AM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Obviously nobody's suggesting that Lidl is acting illegally...

If any company's website offers a branch finding via Eircode entry function, it couldn't be used to send unsolicited post without breaching data protection law.

A website would have to inform you that entering your Eircode meant that you were agreeing to have marketing mail posted to you and would have to give you the option of refusing to allow marketing mail to be posted to you.

I entered my UK postcode into a website today to find the nearest branch of a chain store.

I would have had no problem entering an Eircode into the Irish version of their website because I'm confident they wouldn't breach data protection law by using the Eircode to send me unsolicited marketing mail.

Any company that does this is liable to face fines and sanctions.

Implementing Eircode use on a website for unlawful purposes is clearly not going to be something that reputable companies do.

Fair enough, and being pretty internet savvy, I would tend to trust a major chain provided they state clearly the purpose of Eircode input.

However, it introduces two hurdles : a straightforward branch locating action has now become a small print reading, box ticking or unticking exercise, which is bothersome, and would probably put off someone like my mil (Irish Lidl customer of the year, or at least she should be), from accessing the site at all. Even as it is, she prefers the paper leaflets, as the site is too complicated (sic).

In spite of legal small print assurances, a cohort of internet users will be reluctant to give their full, individual address, especially in what should be insignificant, anonymous, little everyday actions.

Eircode's strong point may also be its Achille's heel from a customer's perspective.

All of the above in contrast with say, a French postcode, which is significant enough to be used for statistics and commercial location related needs, but anonymous enough for customers to use liberally.

But this is all off topic, although somewhat related to wider implementation online for commercial purposes.

sesswhat · 11-02-2016 11:08AM

If you're worried about giving away your location, just use the eircode of your local PO, for example, on these occasions. I would often use a random postcode across the border to find stock in NI branches of outlets like Argos or PC World.

(Probably best to use your real one if you need an ambulance though!)

L1011 · 11-02-2016 02:05PM

gizmo555 wrote: »

I don't think so. My name's on the electoral register, but the FG leaflet was addressed to "The Household". In every past election at my current address, they wrote to me by name.

State cost saving - the litir um togchain system is state funded so it's now sent one per household not one per voter

The draft register is about 80% eircoded now but only in numbered areas mostly... So not much use. I imagine new registrations will require it

my3cents · 11-02-2016 02:11PM

Is there also an element of "data protection" by addressing items with an Eircode to "The Houshold"? Address +Eircode is the same as the address which anyone can look up but add in the householders name and you have data that is more personal.

TheChizler · 11-02-2016 02:46PM

my3cents wrote: »

Is there also an element of "data protection" by addressing items with an Eircode to "The Houshold"? Address +Eircode is the same as the address which anyone can look up but add in the householders name and you have data that is more personal.

That information is included in the electoral register anyway so I'd say it's unlikely.

BoatMad · 11-02-2016 02:55PM

plodder wrote: »

- Description of UK postcode.
- Justification of Eircode
- Swipe at people on other side of 'debate'

Not seeing anything much to do with Eircode implementation.

There is no " other " side of the debate, Theres a sort of " down with that " without any clear reasons being advanced as to why Eircode is so unsuitable. Then we have the "crank" type claims , no GPO eircode, etc, well UPS " mightn't use it ", so its a complete failure.

The fact is you can advance certain technical criticisms of Eircode, but in the absence of an alternative system, its hard to make comparisons.

The UK system is very poor from a computer perspective as it was designed for humans , and the PAF was added later. Postcodes in a computerised society should be machine centric. ( which eircode is )

Ive covered a lot of info on eircode implementation , including issues around building courier custom sort lists and routes etc

plodder · 11-02-2016 04:04PM

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no " other " side of the debate, Theres a sort of " down with that " without any clear reasons being advanced as to why Eircode is so unsuitable. Then we have the "crank" type claims , no GPO eircode, etc, well UPS " mightn't use it ", so its a complete failure.

The fact is you can advance certain technical criticisms of Eircode, but in the absence of an alternative system, its hard to make comparisons.

The UK system is very poor from a computer perspective as it was designed for humans , and the PAF was added later. Postcodes in a computerised society should be machine centric. ( which eircode is )

Ive covered a lot of info on eircode implementation , including issues around building courier custom sort lists and routes etc

I'll answer this on the discussion thread as this thread is supposed to be about implementation.

TheChizler · 11-02-2016 05:47PM

Logged into Paye Anytime and they had filled in my Eircode for me. Very thoughtful of Revenue!

Sleeper12 · 11-02-2016 06:28PM

BoatMad wrote:

There is no " other " side of the debate, Theres a sort of " down with that " without any clear reasons being advanced as to why Eircode is so unsuitable. Then we have the "crank" type claims , no GPO eircode, etc, well UPS " mightn't use it ", so its a complete failure.

At the day of its launch the GPO did NOT have an eircode. Pat Kenny had researchers putting in different addresses. The GPO was given an eircode at a later date. I'm pretty sure that you can still download the podcast if you want to.
The launch was like most things this government did, a complete disaster. The companies now talking about using eircode have been courted by the government. What have they been promised to use a system that they originally said wouldn't work for them. Has googles tax affairs been brought in to play to encourage them to use the system?
Six months ago non of these companies didn't want anything to do with eircode. The implementation of eircode has been a disaster. I'm sure bribery & bullying will get these companies on board but if eircode was as good as some think we wouldn't have had to bully & bribe.

marmurr1916 · 11-02-2016 06:41PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

At the day of its launch the GPO did NOT have an eircode. Pat Kenny had researchers putting in different addresses. The GPO was given an eircode at a later date. I'm pretty sure that you can still download the podcast if you want to.
The launch was like most things this government did, a complete disaster. The companies now talking about using eircode have been courted by the government. What have they been promised to use a system that they originally said wouldn't work for them. Has googles tax affairs been brought in to play to encourage them to use the system?
Six months ago non of these companies didn't want anything to do with eircode. The implementation of eircode has been a disaster. I'm sure bribery & bullying will get these companies on board but if eircode was as good as some think we wouldn't have had to bully & bribe.

Can you please name the individuals in government and/or acting for the state and in companies that have been involved in bribery to encourage the implementation of Eircodes? I always prefer to see named individuals when these claims are made rather that just generic terms like 'the government' 'big business' etc.

ukoda · 11-02-2016 06:45PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

At the day of its launch the GPO did NOT have an eircode. Pat Kenny had researchers putting in different addresses. The GPO was given an eircode at a later date. I'm pretty sure that you can still download the podcast if you want to.
The launch was like most things this government did, a complete disaster. The companies now talking about using eircode have been courted by the government. What have they been promised to use a system that they originally said wouldn't work for them. Has googles tax affairs been brought in to play to encourage them to use the system?
Six months ago non of these companies didn't want anything to do with eircode. The implementation of eircode has been a disaster. I'm sure bribery & bullying will get these companies on board but if eircode was as good as some think we wouldn't have had to bully & bribe.

A lot of wild claims there. I can tell you the company I work for has decided to implement eircode (fully integrated) it was our decision and there was no one from any government dept involved in that decision I can assure you. We decided based on a business case, a similar business case was used a few years ago when we decided to purchase a copy of the Geodirectory, we weren't bullied into buying that either. It just made good business sense, as does eircode, granted there is an assumption in the business case that eircode will become widely adopted eventually, so we are playing a long game with it.

marmurr1916 · 11-02-2016 06:46PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Fair enough, and being pretty internet savvy, I would tend to trust a major chain provided they state clearly the purpose of Eircode input.

However, it introduces two hurdles : a straightforward branch locating action has now become a small print reading, box ticking or unticking exercise, which is bothersome, and would probably put off someone like my mil (Irish Lidl customer of the year, or at least she should be), from accessing the site at all. Even as it is, she prefers the paper leaflets, as the site is too complicated (sic).

In spite of legal small print assurances, a cohort of internet users will be reluctant to give their full, individual address, especially in what should be insignificant, anonymous, little everyday actions.

Eircode's strong point may also be its Achille's heel from a customer's perspective.

All of the above in contrast with say, a French postcode, which is significant enough to be used for statistics and commercial location related needs, but anonymous enough for customers to use liberally.

But this is all off topic, although somewhat related to wider implementation online for commercial purposes.

It isn't off topic at all - it's a discussion about how Eircodes may be implemented and potential reactions to that type of implementation.

From my perspective you're being a touch paranoid - any company, big or small, that misuses data is in breach of data protection law. Would any decent company prefer possible prosecution, fines, negative publicity and píssed off customers over using Eircode data properly, including Eircodes which are entered purely for the purpose of locating the nearest branch etc?

And, as another poster said, you can always enter someone else's Eircode - maybe that neighbour with the annoying barking dog?

marmurr1916 · 11-02-2016 06:49PM

my3cents wrote: »

Is there also an element of "data protection" by addressing items with an Eircode to "The Houshold"? Address +Eircode is the same as the address which anyone can look up but add in the householders name and you have data that is more personal.

I reckon that's been answered - it's a cost issue. Only one election letter can be sent free per household now, not one per registered voter in each household.

L1011 wrote: »

State cost saving - the litir um togchain system is state funded so it's now sent one per household not one per voter

The draft register is about 80% eircoded now but only in numbered areas mostly... So not much use. I imagine new registrations will require it

Sleeper12 · 11-02-2016 06:52PM

marmurr1916 wrote:

Can you please name the individuals in government and/or acting for the state and in companies that have been involved in bribery to encourage the implementation of Eircodes? I always prefer to see named individuals when these claims are made rather that just generic terms like 'the government' 'big business' etc.

Will you get away with yourself. I'm not sure if you actually follow the news but the minister has been meeting with these companies for 6 months now. There have been photo shoots after meetings. Why was there a need for these meetings if the implementation of the eircode system was a success. Fact: all of these companies said that they wouldn't use eircode. Fact:Minster meets all of these companies. Fact: just as the election is called minister announced all these companies are coming on board.
I'm not saying eircode won't be used eventually by everyone but why did the minister have to get involved. If eircode was such a good system why didn't all these companies sign up at the start without the Minster getting involved?

a65b2cd · 11-02-2016 09:17PM

Got an ESB bill with my Eircode in the address and in the correct address format for An Post. That's a major new user given their complete coverage of household and institutional sectors.

my3cents · 11-02-2016 09:23PM

a65b2cd wrote: »

Got an ESB bill with my Eircode in the address and in the correct address format for An Post. That's a major new user given their complete coverage of household and institutional sectors.

Thanks for reminding me

I meant to pay my ESB bill online yesterday and forgot. Just checked my bill now and no sign of an Eircode yet.

a65b2cd · 11-02-2016 09:57PM

my3cents wrote: »

Thanks for reminding me I meant to pay my ESB bill online yesterday and forgot. Just checked my bill now and no sign of an Eircode yet.

Have you a unique address - if you have you could phone in a customer reading and see if the reissued bill has it. I think it was said at the PAC that it would only commence with bills issued this week.

my3cents · 11-02-2016 10:15PM

a65b2cd wrote: »

Have you a unique address - if you have you could phone in a customer reading and see if the reissued bill has it. I think it was said at the PAC that it would only commence with bills issued this week.

My official address is shared with at least ten other people spread along half a mile of road. The bill was issues 4th of Feb so last week. I've given up phoning in bills and just work them out myself and pay the full amount the estimates area always way under.

marmurr1916 · 11-02-2016 11:31PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Will you get away with yourself. I'm not sure if you actually follow the news but the minister has been meeting with these companies for 6 months now. There have been photo shoots after meetings. Why was there a need for these meetings if the implementation of the eircode system was a success. Fact: all of these companies said that they wouldn't use eircode. Fact:Minster meets all of these companies. Fact: just as the election is called minister announced all these companies are coming on board.
I'm not saying eircode won't be used eventually by everyone but why did the minister have to get involved. If eircode was such a good system why didn't all these companies sign up at the start without the Minster getting involved?

So basically you're just on a fact-free paranoid rant? Grand so. :P

Mountainsandh · 12-02-2016 01:24AM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

It isn't off topic at all - it's a discussion about how Eircodes may be implemented and potential reactions to that type of implementation.

From my perspective you're being a touch paranoid - any company, big or small, that misuses data is in breach of data protection law. Would any decent company prefer possible prosecution, fines, negative publicity and píssed off customers over using Eircode data properly, including Eircodes which are entered purely for the purpose of locating the nearest branch etc?

And, as another poster said, you can always enter someone else's Eircode - maybe that neighbour with the annoying barking dog?

You don't seem to have read my post I'm afraid, please do so again.

The suggestions to use a local post office, or a neighbour's Eircode are once again cumbersome. I would in that situation have to open another tab, look up someone or some place's Eircode, then go back to my lidl page, tick/untick some small print, paste or type Eircode ; instead of simply typing in a set of 5 or so digits and clicking enter. These things matter in the internet world, "ain't nobody got time for that" comes to mind.
And that's my viewpoint, I'm in my 40s, love using the internet, not paranoid ; from a slightly older or generally less internet oriented person's perspective, having to look up an Eircode to access your old weekly specials, or supply your full address, both sound like complete turn offs. I can hear it in my colleagues', friends and family members' voices : "ahhh now. Too much hassle".
None of whom know their own Eircode to input in the first place.

.

Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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