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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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Comments

  • #392
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    ukoda wrote: »
    I just said "in theory" I'm not saying eircode will or should do this, I'm just simply pointing it out as a feature of this type of code that isn't available in other codes.

    And as you know, eircode could offer non geographic options too, like routing key "ESB"

    Isn't "a geo-location code could offer non geographical codes" a bit of a contradiction

    Wouldn't that be so useful for the Travelling Community ?

    If they are leaving for the UK / Europe, it could be forwarded to Pavee Point or something, bit like Parcel Motel


  • #393
    xband
    Closed Accounts Posts: 368 ✭✭xband


    It'll be interesting to see if it does get implemented in the various commercial mapping services.

    Given how long it's taken so far, I wouldn't hold my breath though. This isn't a very big market and I can't really see some of those services getting tied into paying for database access or implementing technically complex solutions for a market that's about the population of the English East Midlands.


  • #394
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,755 ✭✭✭plodder


    just noticed an Eircode endorsement on another boards forum.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98301724&postcount=2716

    Some couriers starting to use it obviously.


  • #395
    stoneill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭stoneill


    By some fortune or misfortune, the town of Delta, British Columbia has the postal code V4G1N4.


  • #396
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    BowWow wrote: »
    That didn't take long. Thread is now going down that usual road of how the wheel Eircode could have been designed.........

    Yep, but isn't it interesting how many people seem to dislike the design?
    For all the technical advantages it has, irrespective of how few flaws it has, many people dislike the design.

    Well, I find that interesting, anyway.


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  • #397
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Yep, but isn't it interesting how many people seem to dislike the design?
    For all the technical advantages it has, irrespective of how few flaws it has, many people dislike the design.

    Well, I find that interesting, anyway.

    I think it's more a case of how loud the people who dislike the design are, as opposed to how many of them there are.


  • #398
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    ukoda wrote: »
    I think it's more a case of how loud the people who dislike the design are, as opposed to how many of them there are.


    brutal honesty, the vast majority neither know nor care about how good or bad the design and implementation is, as it doesn't significantly affect their day to day life.

    Some are just disappointed that an opportunity to put an all encompassing system into place has been missed, some are incandescent about the whole process because they wanted to be involved and were excluded for strange reasons, and some are hacked off that the eventual solution seems to have been very much tailored towards the requirements of a nanny state rather than facilitating the state AND business that has a requirement for an aid to planning quicker, faster and cheaper deliveries without spending a fortune on complex IT solutions in order to get that information.

    The underlying issue was that An Post neither wanted or needed any form of post code system, as they'd already built their own bespoke solution that covered the requirement, and I have to admit to some concern about the decision to incorporate a very strange An Post structure at the core of the system, given the lack of interest from An Post in the first place.

    What we've ended up with is a system that can facilitate the tracking of people to an address with very specific and defining accuracy, which for state services is a big plus, as the implementation very specifically excludes any form of manipulation to use an invalid code, but without access to the specific geocode information or a computer, right now, it's not a lot of help to the majority of people in the country.

    If Navteq and the like do eventually manage to negotiate sensible access rights, we might then see Eircodes implemented in GPS systems, and if that happens, it will make finding obscure locations anywhere in the country a non event, if it doesn't happen, then Eircode will become as irrelevant to day to day living as Loc8 will become, if a system is not taken on board by the major players of Sat Nav systems, regardless of what platform it actually runs on, the use of that system will be crippled, and I have major concerns that the Eircode suppliers will be too greedy and as a result, the product will not be adopted.

    It was the case for a long time that the digital mapping of Ireland wasn't used by the GPS suppliers, so vast tranches of the country had NO coverage on GPS, and one of the reasons for that was the price being sought by Ordnance Survey for their mapping data, there was no vision that enabling people to find their way around the island would be good for so many other services.

    Time will tell, right now, I'm not at all confident that the long term use of Eircode is going to achieve what it should have been capable of, partly because of poor design and implementation strategies, and partly because of the lack of vision for the future that some of the suppliers seem to be showing with their requirements for access to the database information.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • #399
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Irish Steve wrote: »
    Some are just disappointed that an opportunity to put an all encompassing system into place has been missed...

    There are no all-encompassing systems. No matter how our postcodes were designed, there would have been flaws from one perspective or another.

    One of the biggest hurdles Eircode faces is the belief, counter to all logic, that it's possible to design something to perfectly satisfy all conflicting requirements.


  • #400
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    oscarBravo wrote: »

    One of the biggest hurdles Eircode faces is the belief, counter to all logic, that it's possible to design something to perfectly satisfy all conflicting requirements.

    I don't think that's accurate. You're saying that really high up on the list of issues Eircode faces is that people believe that it's possible to satisfy all conflicting requirements? That's a strange thing to say. I'd say that's pretty low on the list of hurdles they face. Way below things like end user adoption, adoption by mapping system providers, adoption by the national postal company, etc.

    I work in providing various automated systems to customers myself, it's absolutely normal to have issues with rollout. It's never yet been acceptable for me to say "one of the biggest problems we'll have is that because people think it can be perfect, it won't make everyone happy".
    If anyone at Eircode is thinking like that (I'm not suggesting they are), they've already lost.

    They'll be able to address a lot of the issues they face. Some of the bigger issues that they face are
    End user adoption - end users aren't compelled to use it when dealing with government at the moment, if they were then adoption would be faster than currently. It's their primary issue. It's literally the metric by which their success will be measured, long term.
    Rural access - many rural people who the system will benefit most don't have great access to internet, so the lookup website is not as useful to them as it is to someone in a city (where ironically the system is of least benefit). They could alleviate this by having other ways for people to find postcodes. Print a basic map, put eircodes in the phone book, etc, there are ways of addressing this.
    Map providers not using Eircode - they're working on this I think - it's a critical issue
    GPS/SatNav providers not using Eircode - they're working on this I think - same as above
    Couriers/Post not using Eircode - this will improve to a degree if the above are improved
    Emergency services uptake - I'm not sure if this is critical in determining the success of Eircode
    .....
    ....
    somewhere way down here is "people think it can satisfy all requirements"


  • #401
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I don't think that's accurate. You're saying that really high up on the list of issues Eircode faces is that people believe that it's possible to satisfy all conflicting requirements? That's a strange thing to say. I'd say that's pretty low on the list of hurdles they face. Way below things like end user adoption, adoption by mapping system providers, adoption by the national postal company, etc.

    I work in providing various automated systems to customers myself, it's absolutely normal to have issues with rollout. It's never yet been acceptable for me to say "one of the biggest problems we'll have is that because people think it can be perfect, it won't make everyone happy".
    If anyone at Eircode is thinking like that (I'm not suggesting they are), they've already lost.

    They'll be able to address a lot of the issues they face. Some of the bigger issues that they face are
    End user adoption - end users aren't compelled to use it when dealing with government at the moment, if they were then adoption would be faster than currently. It's their primary issue. It's literally the metric by which their success will be measured, long term.
    Rural access - many rural people who the system will benefit most don't have great access to internet, so the lookup website is not as useful to them as it is to someone in a city (where ironically the system is of least benefit). They could alleviate this by having other ways for people to find postcodes. Print a basic map, put eircodes in the phone book, etc, there are ways of addressing this.
    Map providers not using Eircode - they're working on this I think - it's a critical issue
    GPS/SatNav providers not using Eircode - they're working on this I think - same as above
    Couriers/Post not using Eircode - this will improve to a degree if the above are improved
    Emergency services uptake - I'm not sure if this is critical in determining the success of Eircode
    .....
    ....
    somewhere way down here is "people think it can satisfy all requirements"

    Fair enough - it was probably overstating the case to say that it's one of the biggest hurdles.

    I'll reframe: one of the biggest problems in any discussion about Eircode is the perception in some quarters that it could have been designed in a way that would have exempted it from criticism. As such, it's constantly being compared to either a putative perfect system (where it will inevitably fall short), or to a system that would have better addressed the requirements of whomever is doing the criticism (where it will inevitably fall short).

    As for your second hurdle, they came up with a way around that: they posted out Eircodes. Granted, many people managed to lose their code, but if I give you something and you lose it, it's a little unfair to complain to me that you don't have access to it.


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  • #402
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Fair enough - it was probably overstating the case to say that it's one of the biggest hurdles.

    As for your second hurdle, they came up with a way around that: they posted out Eircodes. Granted, many people managed to lose their code, but if I give you something and you lose it, it's a little unfair to complain to me that you don't have access to it.

    As I have said many times, if you know someone's address in the non-unique area, there is no way to find their Eircode unless you can find it on an OS map or you ask them yourself. This will limit its adoption in the very area it is needed most. Knowing your own phone number, or your own Eircode is one thing. For those that wish to communicate with you - well they need to know it as well. I can find out landline numbers if it is in the phonebook or it is available on directory inquires but otherwise I am out of luck. With Eircode, it is as I stated above I am out of luck.


  • #403
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    As I have said many times, if you know someone's address in the non-unique area, there is no way to find their Eircode unless you can find it on an OS map or you ask them yourself. This will limit its adoption in the very area it is needed most. Knowing your own phone number, or your own Eircode is one thing. For those that wish to communicate with you - well they need to know it as well. I can find out landline numbers if it is in the phonebook or it is available on directory inquires but otherwise I am out of luck. With Eircode, it is as I stated above.


    I'm struggling to think of a postcode design that lets you find an address on a map when you've no idea which house it is?

    Geo only code - can't do it
    Heirarchical code - can't do it

    The way to solve this is for people to share their eircode (or ANY postcode)

    There's also no where to find a persons mobile number without asking them but we do ok with this.


  • #404
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ukoda wrote: »
    I'm struggling to think of a postcode design that lets you find an address on a map when you've no idea which house it is?

    Geo only code - can't do it
    Heirarchical code - can't do it

    The way to solve this is for people to share their eircode (or ANY postcode)

    There's also no where to find a persons mobile number without asking them but we do ok with this.

    The only way to do it is to give unique addresses to all areas, and to have a statuary authority responsible for the maintenance of those addresses. A fixed format for addresses should be implemented from this.

    However, the opportunity for this has been missed. Only Revenue could enforce this now through the LPT.


  • #405
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The only way to do it is to give unique addresses to all areas, and to have a statuary authority responsible for the maintenance of those addresses. A fixed format for addresses should be implemented from this.

    However, the opportunity for this has been missed. Only Revenue could enforce this now through the LPT.

    I would agree, but it's an entirely separate issue and doesn't relate to eircode or any post code.

    Creating unique addresss outside of a postcode implementation still wouldn't solve the problem you raise "I don't know their exact address or their house location on a map"

    If they gave every house a unique address, then you'd still have to actually ask that person for their new unique address. Which is ironic because giving every household a unique address is exactly what they have done with eircode. But as you've protested before, you don't feel comfortable asking people for it, as I remember you saying "you don't know them that well and might not have their phone number, or might only see them at funerals or Christmas"

    You're "problem" is extremely spurious, I don't see how ANYTHING could solve it for you, except you know, actually asking the person "what's your address and postcode" which you seem to have an aversion to and expect a government department to solve it for you


  • #406
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ukoda wrote: »
    You're "problem" is extremely spurious, I don't see how ANYTHING could solve it for you, except you know, actually asking the person "what's your address and postcode" which you seem to have an aversion to and expect a government department to solve it for you

    I remember a fellow coming up to me asking if I knew where 'XZDE Ltd' (made up name) was - its address was XZDE Ltd, Townland, Posttown, Co Whatsit. He wanted to serve a summons or a writ or some such. In effect, this company had no location because it had no precise address and so could avoid being served. Now that is not the situation that affects me, but is a parallel one. Eircode would solve this if the Eircode could be matched to this non-address.

    A human readable address is needed as well.


  • #407
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    ukoda wrote: »
    I'm struggling to think of a postcode design that lets you find an address on a map when you've no idea which house it is?

    Geo only code - can't do it
    Heirarchical code - can't do it

    The way to solve this is for people to share their eircode (or ANY postcode)

    There's also no where to find a persons mobile number without asking them but we do ok with this.


    A friend of mine lives abroad at present. He bought a house a few streets away from me in October, in a small town in the north-east of England, and paid £20.00 to the local council to get a wheelie bin delivered.

    The bin still hasn't been delivered.

    I've chased it up a few times on his behalf and today visited the council offices to try to get it sorted.

    I was told that the address of the house he bought doesn't exist and that was the reason he couldn't get his bin delivered.

    I thought this was strange since I know the address and gave them the correct address, the address is in the Royal Mail address/postcode finder online and he's received council tax bills (from the same council who couldn't deliver the bin!) and utility bills to the address, along with having documents from solicitors showing that he bought the house at this address.

    The guy at the council office asked me for the postcode of the house. I gave it to him and he looked it up on their GPS mapping system. He showed me the street the postcode led him to and I pointed out the house, which is at the corner with another street.

    The street my friend's house is on has a weird numbering system.

    His house is at number 69, but number 67 is on the same side but at the very far end of the street, with odd numbers starting with 1 in between the two houses.

    The street has also been divided with a paved area, complete with brick-built flower beds, meaning it's impossible to drive the full length of the street - you can walk or cycle but you can't drive. If you want to drive from no. 67 to no. 69 you have to leave the street at the no. 67 end, go around the corner, drive up the lane at the back of the street, turn the corner again and enter the street at the no. 69 end.

    I have no idea who was responsible for the numbering of houses on the street (it's a street of terraced houses built in 1912 or thereabouts) but they obviously didn't pay much attention to numbering the houses in a logical sequence.

    This has led to confusion on previous occasions with couriers, people delivering furniture, plumbers etc, going to the wrong end of the street (as they mainly input the postcode into their satnavs or phones, ending up on the right street but at the wrong end), but nobody's ever claimed before that the house didn't exist, despite having the correct address, including the correct street number, in their database.

    I pointed out the location of the house on the map the council guy had displayed on his computer screen, then I looked at it more closely and it was numbered as 68 on the map, the wrong house number. The map was very detailed, showing the outline of each house and wall boundaries etc, plus the location of lamp-posts, manhole covers etc. But the outline of the house that was located at the corner where my friend's house is was numbered 68, not 69 as it should have been.

    He entered a note into the database describing the correct location of the house (no. 69 at the corner of X Street and Y Street) but couldn't change the map to change 68 to 69.

    If the UK had a postcode which identified individual addresses, would there have been such confusion?

    Would it have mattered if the wrong house number had been added to the map?

    If I put someone's Eircode into the Eircode database it shows me the precise location of the house on a map, unlike if I put someone's UK postcode into a database where I get the street (or part of it if it's a very long street) or a rough location in a rural area.

    Therefore if there's a mistake in the house number on a map, but I've put in the correct Eircode, I can still see the precise location of the house and get to it so I can deliver a bin that was ordered and paid for over three months ago!

    But using the UK system, if I put in the correct postcode I can only see the street and if the map doesn't show the house numbers correctly (and I'm reliant on maps because I'm delivering a bin to an area I'm not familiar with), I can't deliver the bin, unless I walk up and down the street, ringing doorbells and asking people for their house numbers (assuming there's anyone at home).

    For me this was a very vivid example of the limitations of a postcode system that doesn't identify individual addresses. The council had the full correct address and postcode but still couldn't deliver the bin because the postcode naturally isn't linked on the map they use to an individual house.


  • #408
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I remember a fellow coming up to me asking if I knew where 'XZDE Ltd' (made up name) was - its address was XZDE Ltd, Townland, Posttown, Co Whatsit. He wanted to serve a summons or a writ or some such. In effect, this company had no location because it had no precise address and so could avoid being served. Now that is not the situation that affects me, but is a parallel one. Eircode would solve this if the Eircode could be matched to this non-address.

    A human readable address is needed as well.

    It will now have an Eircode and its exact location can be seen on a map.

    I posted an example of how lack of Eircodes in rural areas inhibits the delivery of legal documents in one of the closed threads.

    A court had issued a summons to a driver who lived in a rural townland in Co. Donegal.

    He claimed he'd never received the summons and that it must have been delivered to the wrong address because there were lots of families with the same surname as him in the townland he lived in.

    If Eircodes were used on the driver licencing and car registration databases, his summons would have been delivered to the correct house. He could have claimed non-delivery but the court would have been unlikely to believe him given that Eircode identifies individual houses and other addresses whether there are house numbers or not.

    You keep talking about the need for some means of being able to distinguish individual addresses - the Eircode is a unique address identifier which does this. There's no need for house numbers if you know the Eircode.

    If I lived in rural Ireland, in a townland with no house numbers or names, I'd put a sign with my Eircode at the entrance to my house and I'd give the Eircode to anyone who needed to find me.

    Even if I didn't do this, the map on the Eircode database will show them my precise location and the mobile version of this map allows navigation from one's present location to the location linked to the Eircode.


  • #409
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    A lot of listings on myhome.ie now include the properties eircode


  • #410
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    MOD: I've merged the two remaining Eircode threads as there is duplicate postings.

    This is for implementation discussions, not design discussions. The Eircode design is final and will not be modified for some time.


  • #411
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    ...

    If I lived in rural Ireland, in a townland with no house numbers or names, I'd put a sign with my Eircode at the entrance to my house and I'd give the Eircode to anyone who needed to find me.

    ...

    I have the name of the house up on a big hand carved plaque at the end of the drive even though Eircode don't actually have the house name in their database. Now this weeks task is going to be to get the router out and that fancy set of alphanumeric jigs I rarely use to make up one for the Eircode. Might do a few for the neighbors while I'm at it.


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  • #412
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    MOD: I've merged the two remaining Eircode threads as there is duplicate postings.

    This is for implementation discussions, not design discussions. The Eircode design is final and will not be modified for some time.

    Come on you can't moderate this forum and then go and make prejudiced statements like that.


  • #413
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    my3cents wrote: »
    Come on you can't moderate this forum and then go and make prejudiced statements like that.

    If you think it will be modified, tell me when and how.

    There is a general election coming up and if it becomes an issue, then it might become part of a platform for government in a coalition to be implemented over the next 5 years, and even then it might not become activated during the lifetime of that government.

    Otherwise, Capita will be allowed to run its term.

    That is what I meant 'for some time'. No prejudice.

    By the way - Backseat moderation will not be tolerated.


  • #414
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If you think it will be modified, tell me when and how.

    There is a general election coming up and if it becomes an issue, then it might become part of a platform for government in a coalition to be implemented over the next 5 years, and even then it might not become activated during the lifetime of that government.

    Otherwise, Capita will be allowed to run its term.

    That is what I meant 'for some time'. No prejudice.

    By the way - Backseat moderation will not be tolerated.

    Sorry but read to me like you were one of the crowd that were still grasping at the hope that Eircode might be changed sometime.


  • #415
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    my3cents wrote: »
    Sorry but read to me like you were one of the crowd that were still grasping at the hope that Eircode might be changed sometime.

    As I said, backseat modding is not tolerated - so do not do it.

    If you have a problem with my modding, PM me or report it to the category mod.

    However, I am not allowing discussion on the design of Eircode, only the progress of its implementation.

    A thread was open to discuss alternative designs but that was closed as it became rubbish discussion on Eircode and its faults with the usual cheerleaders for each side with more heat than light.


  • #416
    larchill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 371 ✭✭larchill


    I see SuperValu are including eircode in their bonus points application. This is the 1st 'non State' instance of this that I've seen.


  • #417
    xband
    Closed Accounts Posts: 368 ✭✭xband


    larchill wrote: »
    I see SuperValu are including eircode in their bonus points application. This is the 1st 'non State' instance of this that I've seen.

    Parcel Motel were very early on too.


  • #418
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    oscarBravo wrote: »

    As for your second hurdle, they came up with a way around that: they posted out Eircodes. Granted, many people managed to lose their code, but if I give you something and you lose it, it's a little unfair to complain to me that you don't have access to it.

    I don't think you read my post as I intended it: you read it as a criticism of Eircode, I wrote it as a list of items to be addressed, no criticism or finger-pointing implied.

    For the record, I'm comfortable with the code design itself (other than a minor missed opportunity that the large-area codes are random outside Dublin, and the D4 lobby getting to choose their code) but the implementation isn't firing on all cylinders just yet. I know a lot of people with non-unique rural addresses and am interested in providing constructive suggestions, rather than fault-finding.

    As such, posting out the Eircodes is one thing they did right, but they can hopefully do more too.


  • #419
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,848 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I don't think you read my post as I intended it: you read it as a criticism of Eircode, I wrote it as a list of items to be addressed, no criticism or finger-pointing implied.

    Nope, I took it at face value. The "you" in "you lost your Eircode" wasn't you, but whomever is complaining that they don't know their Eircode despite being informed of it.


  • #420
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/687329883056422912


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  • #421
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    https://twitter.com/doyleeamonn/status/687211417011916800


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