Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

plodder

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Agree 100%, I've been saying it all along too.

Why they don't put a basic image on the website is beyond me: it'd probably be referenced more than their "eircode finder" and facilitate end-users by making them more familiar. The "eircode finder" is for something else entirely and does what it does just fine, but the map-image is such a no-brainer, I can't understand why they don't use it. Even as a simple PR tool it'd be almost free to create/implement and would yield a potentially huge result.

I'll even start it off:
https://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/AnPostDM/Tools/Publicity+Post+Map/

Actually Gamma did the work already and you can see it here

http://www.gamma.ie/sites/default/files/RKDraft.pdf

And to be fair, most of the routing keys are not that bad. There just seems to be a number of massively oversized ones in the West, and a number of peculiarly elongated ones as well, and some very small ones in Dublin.

my3cents

plodder wrote: »

Actually Gamma did the work already and you can see it here

http://www.gamma.ie/sites/default/files/RKDraft.pdf

And to be fair, most of the routing keys are not that bad. There just seems to be a number of massively oversized ones in the West, and a number of peculiarly elongated ones as well, and some very small ones in Dublin.

Then I would suggest that those areas are the areas covered by An Post from different depots.

xband

plodder wrote: »

Actually Gamma did the work already and you can see it here

http://www.gamma.ie/sites/default/files/RKDraft.pdf

And to be fair, most of the routing keys are not that bad. There just seems to be a number of massively oversized ones in the West, and a number of peculiarly elongated ones as well, and some very small ones in Dublin.

To be fair they should have spotted this. It's not a Transition Year geography project. They were extremely well resourced and paid handsomely to design the system!

Also this is a snapshot of An Post's logistics circa maybe 2013?

That will all change in a few years as they evolve and other companies don't really care what An Post's internal structures are. They're completely irrelevant to them.

ukoda

Well the smarter way to do it is, rather than list all routing keys they service, just put a box that says "enter your eircode" and you get a yes / no reply.

Then in the background they can use small areas to mark the areas they service

hans aus dtschl

ukoda wrote: »

Well the smarter way to do it is, rather than list all routing keys they service, just put a box that says "enter your eircode" and you get a yes / no reply.

Then in the background they can use small areas to mark the areas they service

Doesn't work well in print media/facebook blah blah blah but other than that what you're saying makes sense.

xband

ukoda wrote: »

Well the smarter way to do it is, rather than list all routing keys they service, just put a box that says "enter your eircode" and you get a yes / no reply.

Then in the background they can use small areas to mark the areas they service

Which requires you to pay for databases, implement much more expensive code and immediately causes a whole load of data protection issues as the eircode is the full address.

It's not as simple as just adding a box to your website.

You're also assuming customers will be bothered or want to enter their eircode as its private data.

I wouldn't enter mine into random forms online any more than I'd give you my email and mobile number. It's a route towards instant spam!

As pointed out above, it's also useless for print, radio, tv or anything else. Not everything about address communication is done online.

I guess we'll just have to keep drawing maps.

ukoda

xband wrote: »

Which requires you to pay for databases, implement much more expensive code and immediately causes a whole load of data protection issues as the eircode is the full address.

It's not as simple as just adding a box to your website.

You're also assuming customers will be bothered or want to enter their eircode as its private data.

I wouldn't enter mine into random forms online any more than I'd give you my email and mobile number. It's a route towards instant spam!

As pointed out above, it's also useless for print, radio, tv or anything else. Not everything about address communication is done online.

I guess we'll just have to keep drawing maps.

It's exactly as simple as putting a box on your website.

People worried about privacy can choose not to use it. Saying its "instant spam" is unfair. The assumption that every company will take the code and spam people is a smear on the vast majority of reputable companies.

No one puts full long lists of areas they service in print media / radio / tv. It's way too expensive. You simply say "we service the greater Dublin area and surrounds, go online for full details"

oscarBravo

xband wrote: »

Which requires you to pay for databases...

Not really. Several resellers have implemented "pay as you go" models which allow you to pay a small amount (a few cents) for each lookup, rather than licensing the whole database.

...implement much more expensive code...

Meh. It's a cost-benefit analysis. If the code to decide whether or not a customer is in your service area costs more than the benefit you'll gain from letting the customer find that out rather than tie up an employee talking to people, it's worth doing. If not, it's not. The key point is that it makes that cost-benefit analysis possible - without eircodes, it can't even be done.

...and immediately causes a whole load of data protection issues as the eircode is the full address.

Only if you store the eircode along with other information that would allow the customer to be identified. Holding it in memory long enough to do a lookup has precisely zero DP implications.

It's not as simple as just adding a box to your website.

Very few things are.

You're also assuming customers will be bothered or want to enter their eircode as its private data.

I wouldn't enter mine into random forms online any more than I'd give you my email and mobile number. It's a route towards instant spam!

Spamming someone who enters their eircode into an online form is straight-up no-question illegal, and anyone who does it should and would be prosecuted for doing so.

The idea that anyone who asks you for your eircode is prepared to engage in such criminal behaviour is, I dunno, sorta paranoid, frankly.

marmurr1916

my3cents wrote: »

My routing code is different from my nearest neighbor 200m away, their mail comes from a depot 5 miles away mine comes from one 30 miles away.

Eircodes didn't cause this, did they?

my3cents

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Eircodes didn't cause this, did they?

No thats the way its always been. Postal boundary is along the river and up into the hills. Our postal address is one of those ones that looks like an anomaly as we have to use the address that relates to the postal route and not where we are located.

I've looked up a good few addresses on our postmans route and they all have the same routing code.

xband

You're failing to see that a lot of marketing isn't digital or internet connected.

You're expecting customers to engage with a website and enter data rather than passively notice "oh they're in NW1"

Getting customers to do anything is difficult and illegal or not, people don't trust companies with personal data, especially random online adverts. So, I don't really see very many people entering codes to check anything.

Also, there's no way most small businesses will be bothered embedding stuff in sites if it costs money.

There is also a data protection audit and you've got to write T&Cs for use and all that.

As someone who works with small businesses I can see a lot of people going "too complicated... Couldn't be bothered" and just using a map instead or a list of areas in English.

ukoda

xband wrote: »

You're failing to see that a lot of marketing isn't digital or internet connected.

You're expecting customers to engage with a website and enter data rather than passively notice "oh they're in NW1"

Getting customers to do anything is difficult and illegal or not, people don't trust companies with personal data, especially random online adverts. So, I don't really see very many people entering codes to check anything.

Also, there's no way most small businesses will be bothered embedding stuff in sites if it costs money.

There is also a data protection audit and you've got to write T&Cs for use and all that.

As someone who works with small businesses I can see a lot of people going "too complicated... Couldn't be bothered" and just using a map instead or a list of areas in English.

That's probably what they said about the Internet too. They are probably the same businesses that have horrendous websites built in the 90's with flashing banners and 'times new roman' font.

Like I said, this kinda of thing isn't necessary for other types of media, it's brilliant for digital though.

You are full of problems, I hope those small businesses aren't interacting with you in a consultancy capacity or you'd have them do nothing new!


I've worked with a fair few small businesses and lots of large ones. I've come to the conclusion there's two types of business people, ones that listen to an idea and get behind it and drive it on, leaving you having to warn them about the cons and risks but they find solutions, then there's the ones that listen to an idea and immediately see all the issues, with those you have to hold their hand and lead them along with constant reassurance

I guess my point is, some will see eircode as an opportunity, others will see it as a problem.

xband

No, they didn't say that about the Internet because it's a completely ludicrous comparison. The Internet being a vast new medium full of possibilities, eircode being a database look up key for the post office.

There's also *no way* I would enter my mobile, landline number or eircode into a random site just to check if they delivered to my area.
I don't think I'm alone in that and it's far from "paranoia"

We have all had experiences of being bombarded with emails and calls and with issues around identity theft.

ukoda

xband wrote: »

No, they didn't say that about the Internet because it's a completely ludicrous comparison. The Internet being a vast new medium full of possibilities, eircode being a database look up key for the post office.

There's also *no way* I would enter my mobile, landline number or eircode into a random site just to check if they delivered to my area.
I don't think I'm alone in that and it's far from "paranoia"

We have all had experiences of being bombarded with emails and calls and with issues around identity theft.

Ah yes, now I definitely know which one you are

xband

ukoda wrote: »

Ah yes, now I definitely know which one you are

Excuse me?
What exactly is that supposed to mean?!?

TheChizler

xband wrote: »

No, they didn't say that about the Internet because it's a completely ludicrous comparison. The Internet being a vast new medium full of possibilities, eircode being a database look up key for the post office.

There's also *no way* I would enter my mobile, landline number or eircode into a random site just to check if they delivered to my area.
I don't think I'm alone in that and it's far from "paranoia"

We have all had experiences of being bombarded with emails and calls and with issues around identity theft.

If they have the ability to look up your address from a postcode they had the ability to obtain your address anyway. If the fear is they can make directed marketing because of the content of the website you input your code into to find out if they deliver, they'd get your address anyway when they do deliver. So I don't think this particular implementation of Eircode is cause for concern over spam.

xband

The worry I have is that as Eircode becomes a key part of identity verification, it will become sensitive information.

All I'm suggesting is that customers are very, very unlikely to go to a website and enter their personal information all to find out what rough areas a particular company serves.

It's also very unlikely that businesses, especially small ones, would pay on going charges for database access or for web design.

You can just define an area in google maps easily enough and post your location.

Almost 99% of the time on a website all I need is a navigation URL that fires up my phone's default mapping app at the correct GPS location. Loads of business already do this.

ukoda

xband wrote: »

Almost 99% of the time on a website all I need is a navigation URL that fires up my phone's default mapping app at the correct GPS location. Loads of business already do this.

You realise that's trackable right?! You've just given that website your GPS location. Which is more than likely your home. Why aren't you concerned that they use this to "instant spam" you?

xband

I'm talking about where a business provides THEIR gps location not where you provide yours.

Unless you've some extremely odd security settings, your browser most certainly does not report your GPS location to any site without very clear permission being asked by the OS or browser both with iOS and Android.

If you want to explain your service areas it you could just draw a map or use one of the many mapping services that will help you do that to explain it to your customers.

You don't need to have some hidden database where you invite them to enter their eircode and see if you do / don't serve them as has been suggested on the thread.

ukoda

xband wrote: »

I'm talking about where a business provides THEIR gps location not where you provide yours.

Unless you've some extremely odd security settings, your browser most certainly does not report your GPS location to any site without very clear permission being asked by the OS or browser both with iOS and Android.

If you want to explain your service areas it you could just draw a map or use one of the many mapping services that will help you do that to explain it to your customers.

You don't need to have some hidden database where you invite them to enter their eircode and see if you do / don't serve them as has been suggested on the thread.

Let me be clear, if the website is dubious, as is your concern, there is mostly certainly a way for them to grab your location without your permission using geoip API, it's certainly not legal, but neither is them holding your eircode and using it without your permission.

xband

ukoda wrote: »

Let me be clear, if the website is dubious, as is your concern, there is mostly certainly a way for them to grab your location without your permission using geoip API, it's certainly not legal, but neither is them holding your eircode and using it without your permission.

You can't glean very much information from geo ip other than a vague notion of what area of a country you are in at most. Usually all you can get from it is the country the IP is assigned to.

The majority of ISPs also use dynamic IP addresses so it's fairly difficult to be sure that one IP is always associated with a particular geographic location or end user.

ukoda

xband wrote: »

You can't glean very much information from geo ip other than a vague notion of what area of a country you are in at most. Usually all you can get from it is the country the IP is assigned to.

Depending on what you use and the current exploits you can get the devices exact location. (Particularly JavaScript at the moment)

Anyway, this is off topic, the point being, 99.9% of companies who would ask for your eircode would use it responsibly.

123.ie ask for it before they quote you for insurance, I had no issue giving it to them.

xband

The example given way back up the thread was about a business that just wanted to simply list the areas it served in a static format.

If you're say doing house painting, you're not going to want or need to be verifying and checking postcodes on a website to see if you serve that area.

That's all that was being said! The idea of postcode database look ups every time you want to figure anything out about an address is a huge limitation of eircode and it will mean it's not going to be as useful as typical postcode systems .

ukoda

xband wrote: »

The idea of postcode database look ups every time you want to figure anything out about an address is a huge limitation of eircode and it will mean it's not going to be as useful as typical postcode systems .

Not look ups every time, just when they are useful. I.e. If there's ambiguity about what area your company covers, a solution like "enter your eircode to find out" is a very useful solution.

It's up to you if you feel like you trust the company enough to give them your eircode, if you don't, then call them, and hope they don't do a backtrack on your phone to hack your location

ukoda

Interesting idea! Don't think that's a real eircode

gctest50

.

plodder

xband wrote: »

The example given way back up the thread was about a business that just wanted to simply list the areas it served in a static format.

If you're say doing house painting, you're not going to want or need to be verifying and checking postcodes on a website to see if you serve that area.

That's all that was being said! The idea of postcode database look ups every time you want to figure anything out about an address is a huge limitation of eircode and it will mean it's not going to be as useful as typical postcode systems .

Businesses that are already licensing Eircode might offer a lookup service, but the idea that a typical small business would use a service that they have to pay for just to inform the public what areas they cover, is unlikely in the extreme.

Are there any small businesses doing this currently?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

but the idea that a typical small business would use a service that they have to pay for just to inform the public what areas they cover, is unlikely in the extreme.

Are there any small businesses doing this currently?

Yes, it's called "advertising"

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

the idea that a typical small business would use a service that they have to pay for just to inform the public what areas they cover, is unlikely in the extreme.

Are there any small businesses doing this currently?

Small businesses have been doing this for decades.

Have you never seen ads in your local paper, heard them on your local radio station, seen them in your local Golden Pages etc?

"Murphy Painters & Decorators. Covering Tipperary Town, Cahir, Cashel, Bansha, Dundrum and all of south-west Co. Tipp. Free estimates, quality work guaranteed by time-served painters & decorators. Call now on 1800 555 555."

Sometimes I wonder if some of the posters here live in the real world.

ukoda

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Small businesses have been doing this for decades.

Have you never seen ads in your local paper, heard them on your local radio station, seen them in your local Golden Pages etc?

"Murphy Painters & Decorators. Covering Tipperary Town, Cahir, Cashel, Bansha, Dundrum and all of south-west Co. Tipp. Free estimates, quality work guaranteed by time-served painters & decorators. Call now on 1800 555 555."

Sometimes I wonder if some of the posters here live in the real world.

Not to mention the fact that in this scenario they have a website they pay for to tell customers what they do and where they do it, they also pay for a phone line so customers can be told where they operate, they pay for a person to answer that phone.

If you're a company like that locksmith and the areas you cover are kinda vague, and you are routinely answering the phone to say yes or no to customers, then if you are a savvy business person you'd do some analysis on how many of those queries you could drive to "self serve" on the web and look at potentially how much extra business it could generate.

You could then potentially ask customers could you keep their eircode (with a tick box or something) but it would only be used to access demand for the service in their area. Then you have a way of identifying areas that show a high amount of enquires that might be just slightly outside your service area, now you know there's demand in that area and could expand. Or if you didn't want to ask, just keep the townland area or street field from each look up to keep it to general areas

So much opportunity for those who are willing to see it!