National Postcodes to be introduced

Sam Russell · 18-11-2015 10:41am

SPDUB wrote: »

What was your plan to deal with the Irish form of the county names since both Irish and English are allowed to be used on number plates .

Have you looked at number plates? The two letter (or one) are from the English language version of the name. The Irish language version of the name is written on the top of the number plate.

@geographer52 Is this a fixed length code?

I agree with your comments re charging for the use of the code. [Shhhh - don't tell Eircom or they will charge for the phone book!

]

MrMorooka · 18-11-2015 1:41pm

geographer52 wrote: »

Eire

Ireland*

plodder · 18-11-2015 2:04pm

MrMorooka wrote: »

Ireland*

Just sayin' ..

MrMorooka · 18-11-2015 3:34pm

plodder wrote: »

Just sayin' ..

That's a stamp using the Irish language. In English, which is what we're using on this thread, the name of the state is Ireland, it's very simple.

BowWow · 18-11-2015 5:33pm

ARTICLE 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English
language, Ireland.

Either Éire or Ireland is correct.

Éire should have the "fada".

marmurr1916 · 18-11-2015 6:25pm

BowWow wrote: »

ARTICLE 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English
language, Ireland.

Either Éire or Ireland is correct.

Éire should have the "fada".

The rule of thumb for ordinary conversations: Éire nuair a bhíomar ag caint as Gaeilge, Ireland when we were discussing in English.

Sam Russell · 18-11-2015 6:32pm

Can we stick to post codes. rather than stamps.

BowWow · 18-11-2015 6:32pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The rule of thumb for ordinary conversations: Éire nuair a bhíomar ag caint as Gaeilge, Ireland when we were discussing in English.

Totally agree, but just saying Éire is acceptable.

oscarBravo · 18-11-2015 6:44pm

geographer52 wrote: »

I have been watching this board for many years and have not felt able to comment, the reason for this was I was party to the bidding process, the group I was bidding with pulled out because we felt that the code structure mandated by DCENR was sub-optimal and hard to justify. In particular I felt that it was a missed opportunity to create the worlds best geo-coding system.

So how would I know? In the 1980's I ran the UK postcode system and I know what was done wrong in that design and implementation, since that time I have worked with standards bodies allover the world to help people to create and use addresses.

So what would a good Postcode System look like in Eire?

The first two Characters would match the car county code.

Then two numbers would match each significant Townland
(some Townlands are too small to be included and I know there would be rows and endless discussion, but the current code ignores Irish Geography and History so this would be better despite any inadequacy)

This would be followed by a second part, mixed alpha numeric that identified one side of a single road between junctions (Americans would call this a block face), a code would exist for every block face even if no properties existed on it.

A third part not general used would be a two character alpha numeric that identified a property on a block face. This would satisfy DNCER's requirement of identifying properties.

This code would be universal allowing a satnav to find every street segment in Eire, would allow geo-demographic analysis like the UK and Canadian codes. (As an aside the politicians who suggested that this kind of code generates a "postcode lottery" are confusing cause with effect, it allows government and citizen to see where there is existing inequality)

We tested this code against the whole road network in Eire and found that it was capable of recording all existing block faces and in the worst case allowed for 100% expansion , given that these would be new roads not properties it is difficult to envisage the circumstance in the next 50 years that would cause re-coding to be needed.

Finally it seems to me to be completely bizarre that this data and associated addresses are being sold at such a high price, the UK model. When the national benefit from free availability would be much greater, but then politicians the world over like to screw the last penny out of citizens.

Sounds like an interesting design, with some caveats: first, not every county has a two-character car registration code. Second, does it preserve existing Dublin postcodes? Third, the house and the filling station visible here would have completely different postcodes, right from the very first character - not exactly helpful for organising deliveries. And finally, it's equally subject to two of the criticisms most often levelled at Eircode: it doesn't identify arbitrary (non-postal) locations, and it doesn't identify locations without a database lookup.

Sam Russell · 18-11-2015 7:02pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sounds like an interesting design, with some caveats: first, not every county has a two-character car registration code. Second, does it preserve existing Dublin postcodes? Third, the house and the filling station visible here would have completely different postcodes, right from the very first character - not exactly helpful for organising deliveries. And finally, it's equally subject to two of the criticisms most often levelled at Eircode: it doesn't identify arbitrary (non-postal) locations, and it doesn't identify locations without a database lookup.

I think the Dublin post codes could be accommodated by the two digits for the townland, which could incorporate Co. Dublin areas as well.

If it can identify every 'block face' or side of the road between junctions, then I think that covers every arbitrary place - not exactly but pretty close.

The database lookup would not be a problem if it was not proprietary and anyway does not go down to every property so it would be smaller.

The key question is whether it is fixed length or not.

oscarBravo · 18-11-2015 7:18pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the Dublin post codes could be accommodated by the two digits for the townland, which could incorporate Co. Dublin areas as well.

Yes, they could. But were they?

If it can identify every 'block face' or side of the road between junctions, then I think that covers every arbitrary place - not exactly but pretty close.

Only if we're going to judge this code and Eircodes by completely different standards. What happened to the importance of having a postcode for every electricity pylon?

The database lookup would not be a problem if it was not proprietary and anyway does not go down to every property so it would be smaller.

If it doesn't include the exact location of every property, it's missing one of the single most useful aspects of Eircode.

What's a "not proprietary" database lookup?

BowWow · 18-11-2015 7:18pm

Don't understand why you are even discussing this? Postcodes are here, there wont be another system, the're being used, I'm using them every week in my business successfully, you cant reinvent the wheel......... move on...

Do you not think its strange that a new poster joins the thread months after their introduction with another suggestion?

Sam Russell · 18-11-2015 8:44pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes, they could. But were they? Only if we're going to judge this code and Eircodes by completely different standards. What happened to the importance of having a postcode for every electricity pylon? If it doesn't include the exact location of every property, it's missing one of the single most useful aspects of Eircode.

What's a "not proprietary" database lookup?

This was a response to an outline of a possible design that was not pursued, so the details were not given.

The possible of identifying each and every letterbox was given, but no details of the actual design.

However, as has been pointed out, the design is now with Eircode (and all its failings) and there will be no other design for the foreseeable future.

oscarBravo · 18-11-2015 9:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

This was a response to an outline of a possible design that was not pursued, so the details were not given.

I know, that's why I was asking for them.

However, as has been pointed out, the design is now with Eircode (and all its failings) and there will be no other design for the foreseeable future.

That doesn't seem to have stopped anyone from criticising it... :pac:

Sam Russell · 18-11-2015 10:00pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

That doesn't seem to have stopped anyone from criticising it... :pac:

Well, criticism was due because it was an awful design. However it is now pointless as it will not improve with age but may gain acceptance (well it has to be accepted because it is the only postcode in town).

ukoda · 18-11-2015 10:18pm

I see loc8 have tweeted a link to that post about the other code design, they tweeted it like it was factual.

I wonder does loc8 have anything better to do than trash eircode at every opportunity, do they have no business left to run that they have the time for this?

They tweet nonsense like "urgent public safety issue with eircode" which is complete rubbish, lads yee didn't get the contract and you're annoyed, we get it. But making stuff up and telling lies is no way to conduct yourselves on a public platform.

No ones buying the whole "it's a safety issue" and that your concern is for the people of Ireland. You have one interest and that's protecting your business.

If you were truly interested in what's best for the public in emergency situations, you would NOT be promoting your code as a solution, when the locateme112 service is FAR superior and far more effective in an emergency. Why do you advocate use of your postcode for emergency services when it is inferior? Because you're only interested in yourselves and your profits and continuing a smear campaign full of lies and misleading twists on things. It's pretty disgusting at this stage.

SPDUB · 18-11-2015 10:20pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Have you looked at number plates? The two letter (or one) are from the English language version of the name. The Irish language version of the name is written on the top of the number plate

Have you looked at number plates? I've seen cars with BAC instead of D as the main county designator driving around Dublin .

Apart from how you would deal with the use of 2 different forms in a postcode , would you write a little BAC over D for Dublin or LG over WX for Wexford )

TheChizler · 18-11-2015 10:27pm

SPDUB wrote: »

Have you looked at number plates? I've seen cars with BAC instead of D as the main county designator driving around Dublin .

Apart from how you would deal with the use of 2 different forms in a postcode , would you write a little BAC over D for Dublin or LG over WX for Wexford )

Like, 151-BAC-1234??

Sam Russell · 18-11-2015 10:31pm

SPDUB wrote: »

Have you looked at number plates? I've seen cars with BAC instead of D as the main county designator driving around Dublin .

Apart from how you would deal with the use of 2 different forms in a postcode , would you write a little BAC over D for Dublin or LG over WX for Wexford )

They are false number plates if they have BAC on them. The number plate should show the same as the registration document otherwise it is false and hence illegal.

Can we not discuss number plates or postage stamps.

BowWow · 18-11-2015 11:28pm

ukoda wrote: »

I see loc8 have tweeted a link to that post about the other code design, they tweeted it like it was factual.

I wonder does loc8 have anything better to do than trash eircode at every opportunity, do they have no business left to run that they have the time for this?

They tweet nonsense like "urgent public safety issue with eircode" which is complete rubbish, lads yee didn't get the contract and you're annoyed, we get it. But making stuff up and telling lies is no way to conduct yourselves on a public platform.

No ones buying the whole "it's a safety issue" and that your concern is for the people of Ireland. You have one interest and that's protecting your business.

If you were truly interested in what's best for the public in emergency situations, you would NOT be promoting your code as a solution, when the locateme112 service is FAR superior and far more effective in an emergency. Why do you advocate use of your postcode for emergency services when it is inferior? Because you're only interested in yourselves and your profits and continuing a smear campaign full of lies and misleading twists on things. It's pretty disgusting at this stage.

loc8 seem like sad bitter people at this stage, they need to get over it and move on with their lives. I'm suspicious that this other new potential code emanates in the loc8 stable.....

plodder · 19-11-2015 10:11am

BowWow wrote: »

Don't understand why you are even discussing this? Postcodes are here, there wont be another system, the're being used, I'm using them every week in my business successfully, you cant reinvent the wheel......... move on...

We're stuck with Eircode clearly, but that doesn't mean it makes no sense to discuss its faults, or hypothetical alternatives.

oscarBravo · 19-11-2015 10:18am

plodder wrote: »

We're stuck with Eircode clearly, but that doesn't mean it makes no sense to discuss its faults, or hypothetical alternatives.

Sure. It would be nice to discuss them honestly, though - and that has sometimes been missing from the debate.

plodder · 19-11-2015 10:29am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure. It would be nice to discuss them honestly, though - and that has sometimes been missing from the debate.

I think the majority of posters are expressing honestly held opinions.

oscarBravo · 19-11-2015 11:15am

plodder wrote: »

I think the majority of posters are expressing honestly held opinions.

"I think Eircodes are badly designed" is an honestly-held opinion. "Nobody is using Eircodes" is not.

OU812 · 19-11-2015 12:32pm

geographer52 wrote: »

I have been watching this board for many years and have not felt able to comment, the reason for this was I was party to the bidding process, the group I was bidding with pulled out because we felt that the code structure mandated by DCENR was sub-optimal and hard to justify. In particular I felt that it was a missed opportunity to create the worlds best geo-coding system.

So how would I know? In the 1980's I ran the UK postcode system and I know what was done wrong in that design and implementation, since that time I have worked with standards bodies allover the world to help people to create and use addresses.

So what would a good Postcode System look like in Eire?

The first two Characters would match the car county code.

Then two numbers would match each significant Townland
(some Townlands are too small to be included and I know there would be rows and endless discussion, but the current code ignores Irish Geography and History so this would be better despite any inadequacy)

This would be followed by a second part, mixed alpha numeric that identified one side of a single road between junctions (Americans would call this a block face), a code would exist for every block face even if no properties existed on it.

A third part not general used would be a two character alpha numeric that identified a property on a block face. This would satisfy DNCER's requirement of identifying properties.

This code would be universal allowing a satnav to find every street segment in Eire, would allow geo-demographic analysis like the UK and Canadian codes. (As an aside the politicians who suggested that this kind of code generates a "postcode lottery" are confusing cause with effect, it allows government and citizen to see where there is existing inequality)

We tested this code against the whole road network in Eire and found that it was capable of recording all existing block faces and in the worst case allowed for 100% expansion , given that these would be new roads not properties it is difficult to envisage the circumstance in the next 50 years that would cause re-coding to be needed.

Finally it seems to me to be completely bizarre that this data and associated addresses are being sold at such a high price, the UK model. When the national benefit from free availability would be much greater, but then politicians the world over like to screw the last penny out of citizens.

Could the existing system be adapted to use this? The current random code would become hidden, the current routing key could be expanded & include other "non postal" areas & a first part could be added which would become the "Block Face"

plodder · 19-11-2015 12:33pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

"I think Eircodes are badly designed" is an honestly-held opinion. "Nobody is using Eircodes" is not.

That's obviously incorrect when read literally. I think the more subtle the dishonesty, the more egregious it is though, but I'm not going down that rat hole today.

This is the internet anyway, and far worse things are being said elsewhere - like today's Irish Examiner, and in the Dail. Whatever happened about that claim that 89% of the public know their Eircode? That was obviously false.

marmurr1916 · 19-11-2015 2:00pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, criticism was due because it was an awful design. However it is now pointless as it will not improve with age but may gain acceptance (well it has to be accepted because it is the only postcode in town).

The only major criticism I've seen of it is that it's non-hierarchical, hardly relevant in an age of computer databases and mobile internet.

Apart from that, the fact is that it's a postcode, intended to identify postal addresses, not a geocode.

Sam Russell · 19-11-2015 2:43pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The only major criticism I've seen of it is that it's non-hierarchical, hardly relevant in an age of computer databases and mobile internet.

Apart from that, the fact is that it's a postcode, intended to identify postal addresses, not a geocode.

There are several criticisms.

1. It is based on routing codes that have no relevance on the ground. Some are non-contiguous, and many cross county boundaries.

2. The routing codes are over large in some areas and quite small in others.

3. The routing codes are based on a subset of An Post's postal towns. They have about 2,000 of them but have reduced them to about 100.

4. The retention of Dublin post codes was part of the spec but should have been incorporated differently as it has led to too large an area for each single routing code.

5. The random element is just daft.

6. It appears to be designed to maximise its use for monetizing the database.

Although the code is designed as a postcode, it could have been the basis for many other uses, such as navigation, statistical analysis, etc. However, we dumped the PayPars and eVoting, and we are in the process of joining the two Luas lines, so we will find a way of living with Eircode - but it could have been so much more. Remember, the Harcourt St line was closed by Todd Andrews for political/personal reasons, and has cost the state a huge amount to replace it 50 years later.

Eircode did not need to be based on An Post's method of handling post because they are fully computerised and fully automated, so any code would do.

MBSnr · 19-11-2015 3:49pm

Dated today.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/emergency-services-brand-eircode-worse-than-useless-365758.html

oscarBravo · 19-11-2015 4:54pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are several criticisms.

1. It is based on routing codes that have no relevance on the ground. Some are non-contiguous, and many cross county boundaries.

2. The routing codes are over large in some areas and quite small in others.

3. The routing codes are based on a subset of An Post's postal towns. They have about 2,000 of them but have reduced them to about 100.

4. The retention of Dublin post codes was part of the spec but should have been incorporated differently as it has led to too large an area for each single routing code.

5. The random element is just daft.

These criticisms amount, in sum, to "I would have designed it differently".

I have precisely one requirement of a postcode: that it tell me the precise location of the premises to which it refers. Eircode meets that requirement, and as such is working very nicely for me.

6. It appears to be designed to maximise its use for monetizing the database.

This criticism amounts to "I want to be able to access it without paying for it". Which you can, unless you need to access more than 15 per day, at which point it's hard to argue that your requirements don't justify paying for the information.

Although the code is designed as a postcode, it could have been the basis for many other uses, such as navigation, statistical analysis, etc.

It still can. You have convinced yourself that such uses could only have been made of a code if all the relevant information was stored in the code itself. It's actually a lot more efficient to store that information in a database.

MBSnr wrote: »

Dated today.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/emergency-services-brand-eircode-worse-than-useless-365758.html

However, one senior fire officer said: “As it is, Eircode is worse than useless.”

"Worse than useless" implies that it's actively harmful in some way; that the job of the emergency services has been made more difficult by Eircodes. Given that he doesn't explain how this is the case, I think it's fair to say that he's suffering from the same reflexive criticism problem that we've seen all too much of in this thread.

MBSnr · 19-11-2015 5:19pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

"Worse than useless" implies that it's actively harmful in some way; that the job of the emergency services has been made more difficult by Eircodes. Given that he doesn't explain how this is the case, I think it's fair to say that he's suffering from the same reflexive criticism problem that we've seen all too much of in this thread.

True. I do think though that the lack of Eircode on Google maps over 4 months since launch is a concern. Especially since a recent update, Google maps can now do drive turn by turn navigation 'offline'. I wonder where the delay is .... Google or the Eircode provider...?

Sam Russell · 19-11-2015 5:29pm

Eircode is a system of PPS numbers for addresses, and any random set of characters would have done as well. Anyone could have designed such a system.

The comment that 'it is worse than useless' could relate to the emergency services having to explain to callers and others that the Eircode is not used by them because they have yet to incorporate it into their specialised terminals and that no satnav equipment uses it yet. That explaination takes time that could be better spent dealing with the emergency.

swampgas · 19-11-2015 5:35pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Eircode is a system of PPS numbers for addresses, and any random set of characters would have done as well. Anyone could have designed such a system.

The comment that 'it is worse than useless' could relate to the emergency services having to explain to callers and others that the Eircode is not used by them because they have yet to incorporate it into their specialised terminals and that no satnav equipment uses it yet. That explaination takes time that could be better spent dealing with the emergency.

If I were managing the emergency services my priority would be finding ways to take advantage of eircodes where they are available. Simple ad hoc procedures can be introduced immediately, full integration with specialised systems can come later. How hard can it be for someone in a control center to punch an eircode into a web browser and verify an address and location with a caller? It doesn't have to work perfectly to start with, but if it helps some of the time, why not embrace it wholeheartedly?

Describing them as "worse than useless" is so bloody typical of the traditional Irish negative approach to anything new. Heaven forbid that we might actually adapt and find new ways to do things better.
(end rant)

oscarBravo · 19-11-2015 5:38pm

MBSnr wrote: »

True. I do think though that the lack of Eircode on Google maps over 4 months since launch is a concern. Especially since a recent update, Google maps can now do drive turn by turn navigation 'offline'. I wonder where the delay is .... Google or the Eircode provider...?

Licensing negotiations, I suspect.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Eircode is a system of PPS numbers for addresses, and any random set of characters would have done as well.

See, that's the sort of criticism that I would consider outside the realm of "honestly-held opinion" and drifting into "just not true".

I mean, sure: it's sort of true, if you just ignore all the design criteria. But, as I've already said, it's trivial to design a postcode if the only criteria you have to meet are the arbitrary ones you've made up to suit yourself.

The comment that 'it is worse than useless' could relate to the emergency services having to explain to callers and others that the Eircode is not used by them because they have yet to incorporate it into their specialised terminals and that no satnav equipment uses it yet. That explaination takes time that could be better spent dealing with the emergency.

It could. I'm inclined to suspect that if he had a specific criticism, he would have mentioned it, and that it's more likely that he used "worse than useless" in that charmingly colloquial Irish sense that actually just means "useless" - which, more accurately, means "I personally don't have a use for it".

TheChizler · 19-11-2015 5:41pm

MBSnr wrote: »

Dated today.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/emergency-services-brand-eircode-worse-than-useless-365758.html

TLDR: Eircode currently isn't incorporated into any systems. They are currently in the process of incorporating Eircode into all of these systems. Unnamed source: "As it is, Eircode is worse than useless".

So the complaint seems to be at the lack of magic developers working on emergency services IT systems.

Sam Russell · 19-11-2015 6:27pm

TheChizler wrote: »

TLDR: Eircode currently isn't incorporated into any systems. They are currently in the process of incorporating Eircode into all of these systems. Unnamed source: "As it is, Eircode is worse than useless".

So the complaint seems to be at the lack of magic developers working on emergency services IT systems.

This thread is 6 years old. A few months back, Eircode was unveiled with 'Ta Dah' and as if by magic it is fully formed at birth.

Then the licencing agreement negotiations for users started, although you would think such negotiations would have started not long after the design phase started.

Now many months later, satnav companies still have not incorporated it into their products and no time scale as to when (and if) it will be incorporated. We have most state agencies (including An Post) still not using it and again no time scale as to when it will be incorporated.

You can see why frustration might rear itself. Personally, I think it is usable as it is, but a better design would be much better and much more use.

Mountainsandh · 20-11-2015 12:37am

oscarBravo wrote: »

These criticisms amount, in sum, to "I would have designed it differently".

I have precisely one requirement of

...the same reflexive criticism problem that we've seen all too much of in this thread.

Of which you have just joyfully partaken.

oscarBravo · 20-11-2015 11:29am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Of which you have just joyfully partaken.

You seem to be confusing "criticism" and "discussion".

plodder · 20-11-2015 12:14pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Eircode is a system of PPS numbers for addresses, and any random set of characters would have done as well.

See, that's the sort of criticism that I would consider outside the realm of "honestly-held opinion" and drifting into "just not true".

How so? There are significant similarities between Eircodes and PPS numbers. Both are unique identifiers. PPS numbers are unstructured/opaque. Eircodes are mostly unstructured also. Of all postcodes in the world, I suspect that Eircode is the one most like a PPS number/Social security number.

ukoda · 20-11-2015 6:00pm

MBSnr wrote: »

Dated today.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/emergency-services-brand-eircode-worse-than-useless-365758.html

What a piece of junk journalism.

A sensationalist headline, a story that contradicts that headline, and then a revelation at the end that the headline of "worse than useless" was just a quote from one anonymous person.

oscarBravo · 20-11-2015 10:49pm

plodder wrote: »

How so?

Because I was arguing with the assertion that "any random set of characters would have done as well."

So a postcode of F3CKY0U would have done as well as as D02 X285?

There were design criteria for the code. Yes, I get that other people would have used other design criteria, but the code isn't completely random, and the assertion that any random set of characters would have done as well is factually untrue.

Mountainsandh · 21-11-2015 1:58am

oscarBravo wrote: »

You seem to be confusing "criticism" and "discussion".

So what you are in effect saying, is that it is acceptable in a discussion to give a personal perspective (as you did), but only when it is positive (ie not criticism).

In fact, as the last few pages of the thread illustrate, the "discussion" is pretty poor, with posters who simply cannot accept that Eircode is under scrutiny.

But Eircode was not designed for company/commercial use only, I was under the impression that the general public (also tax payers) were involved in "the great move" to a postal code system.
I think it is only right that the general public should also be entitled to scrutinize such a project, especially considering the amount of money spent on its design !

But this is tiresome and off-topic for the thread I think at this stage, so I will leave you to shower unmitigated praise on Eircode, and make the apology of lengthy delays in its implementation.

And I will valiantly continue to attempt to use this random string of numbers that, 5 months on, remain perplexing to everyone I know, bar my spouse and postman, in the hope that possibly some time in the future, it might actually be of use.

La Fenetre · 21-11-2015 2:04am

Are people using them much ? They don't really seem to have taken off, and all the fuss has died down. I don't see even many government organisations using them on their addresses.

Mountainsandh · 21-11-2015 12:15pm

La Fenetre wrote: »

Are people using them much ? They don't really seem to have taken off, and all the fuss has died down. I don't see even many government organisations using them on their addresses.

SHHHHHH... Yes. They're used loads. Or soon will be. Like, some time. Soon. Anyway, they're used loads already.
And sure, that's just your own experience, doesn't count.

GJG · 21-11-2015 1:27pm

La Fenetre wrote: »

Are people using them much ? They don't really seem to have taken off, and all the fuss has died down. I don't see even many government organisations using them on their addresses.

If you take actual facts, you can see what is happening. I wrote this in August:

GJG wrote: »

Eircode is less than a month old, and Loc8 has been going for about seven years, so Loc8 have a clear advantage there, let’s see how well they have used it. The Loc8 code NP6 is roughly analogous to Dublin 1, though it contains a good chunk of Dublin 2, as well as elements of Dublin 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 15. The Loc8 code NP5 takes in the rest of Dublin 2, along with more chunks of Dublin 4,6, 6W, 8, and 14. But let’s be generous to Loc8 and only compare NP6 and NP5 with Eircodes D01 and D02.
Search for the exact string “Dublin D01”

Search for the exact string “Dublin D02”

Search for the exact string “Dublin NP6”

Search for the exact string “Dublin NP5”

The two Eircode results, between them, as of my searches, give 858 and 2,870 results. I know there will be some false positives in there, along with a load of missed references where people put in a comma or placed the Eircode in a slightly different position, but I'm applying the same criteria for Eircode and Loc8, so that doesn’t make much difference to the relative results.

For Loc8, the NP6 code, covering the whole of Dublin 1 and a chunk of city-centre Dublin 2, there are seven results. (Of those seven, four are the exact same Loc8 code.) The search for NP5, covering the rest of Dublin 2, plus a large swathe of Dublin 4,6, 6W, 8, and 14, the most densely-internetted place in the country, there is one result, which appears to be a coincidence, just junk text on an irrelevant page.

I’m sure there are false positives and repeats in the Eircode figure too, so let’s give them the benefit of the doubt, so the figure is a total of 3,728 for Eircode to eight for Loc8, a ratio of 466:1.

The Eircode searches now return tens of thousands of hits (the Loc8 search results are basically unchanged). That would indicate a pretty rapid rate of adoption, and it is a verifiable measure, rather than stories about somebody's friend's granny who didn't get a letter on time.

La Fenetre · 21-11-2015 3:03pm

Must be a sore point, I still don't see them being used much, and like most people I don't really care if they are used or not. I've lost the little card with ours on it, and I've no urge to find it, and I don't hear much about them anymore. They remind me of Joe Jacobs iodine tablets. We still have those, I kept them to remind me of how Ireland is run.

ukoda · 21-11-2015 3:06pm

Mountainsandh wrote: »

So what you are in effect saying, is that it is acceptable in a discussion to give a personal perspective (as you did), but only when it is positive (ie not criticism).

In fact, as the last few pages of the thread illustrate, the "discussion" is pretty poor, with posters who simply cannot accept that Eircode is under scrutiny.

But Eircode was not designed for company/commercial use only, I was under the impression that the general public (also tax payers) were involved in "the great move" to a postal code system.
I think it is only right that the general public should also be entitled to scrutinize such a project, especially considering the amount of money spent on its design !

But this is tiresome and off-topic for the thread I think at this stage, so I will leave you to shower unmitigated praise on Eircode, and make the apology of lengthy delays in its implementation.

And I will valiantly continue to attempt to use this random string of numbers that, 5 months on, remain perplexing to everyone I know, bar my spouse and postman, in the hope that possibly some time in the future, it might actually be of use.

You're entitled to scrutinise it. But be prepared to be corrected when you post factually inaccurate information.

"Eircode changed my address" is factually incorrect and very misleading.

"Eircode use my existing An Post defined postal address and I don't like this as it will lead to more people using my postal address" is the correct and factual way to put forward your concerns.

You can have your opinion and no one can change that but yourself. But if you are just plane wrong in what you say, then posters here will challenge you.

Calina · 21-11-2015 5:16pm

ukoda wrote: »

You're entitled to scrutinise it. But be prepared to be corrected when you post factually inaccurate information.

"Eircode changed my address" is factually incorrect and very misleading.

"Eircode use my existing An Post defined postal address and I don't like this as it will lead to more people using my postal address" is the correct and factual way to put forward your concerns.

You can have your opinion and no one can change that but yourself. But if you are just plane wrong in what you say, then posters here will challenge you.

Ukoda,

You're being disengenuous. The vast majority of people in this country were not aware that An Post did not use the geographic/physical addresses but had separate postal addresses. Since Eircode is based on the postal address and not the physical addresses, it is actually true for a lot of people that the imposition of eircode has resulted in the imposition of a new previously unknown address which does not really reflect their actual location.

The only way you can possibly argue against Mountainsandh is to consistently fail to recognise the issue that the country has two addressing paradigms - I'm reluctant to call either a system because addresses whether geographic or postal are hardly standardised or systematic in any way - one of which doesn't reflect reality and wasn't really all that well used by the public.

In the meantime, the Irish postal code system appears to have been entered in the electoral register. Only one person has used mine to send me stuff since it was officially launched and I've used it once myself.

I'm not sure that you can measure adoption of the postal code by doing an internet search on it. An internet search is not a proxy for delivery use. It would be more interesting to know what proportion of post and deliveries now have an eircode included on the delivery address. If people are not putting it on envelopes but are putting it on their website, that is not a reflection of its use as a delivery/addressing support.

Even if every single person in the country knew their postcode by heart and used it all the time does not mean that the design and implementation of it are beyond criticism. Most criticisms of its design and implementation cannot be responded with "well I am using it". For example, if all oscarbravo needs is a unique identifier on the house, it doesn't matter a damn to him how it was designed but elements of the design matter a damn to other people and other users and their criticisms should not be dismissed as irrelevant because it works perfectly for one person. Frankly we could have used emoji and if it was unique, it would have worked for oscarbravo based on his posts in this thread.

ukoda · 21-11-2015 5:20pm

Calina wrote: »

Ukoda,

You're being disengenuous. The vast majority of people in this country were not aware that An Post did not use the geographic/physical addresses but had separate postal addresses. Since Eircode is based on the postal address and not the physical addresses, it is actually true for a lot of people that the imposition of eircode has resulted in the imposition of a new previously unknown address which does not really reflect their actual location.

The only way you can possibly argue against Mountainsandh is to consistently fail to recognise the issue that the country has two addressing paradigms - I'm reluctant to call either a system because addresses whether geographic or postal are hardly standardised or systematic in any way - one of which doesn't reflect reality and wasn't really all that well used by the public.

In the meantime, the Irish postal code system appears to have been entered in the electoral register. Only one person has used mine to send me stuff since it was officially launched and I've used it once myself.

I'm not sure that you can measure adoption of the postal code by doing an internet search on it. An internet search is not a proxy for delivery use. It would be more interesting to know what proportion of post and deliveries now have an eircode included on the delivery address. If people are not putting it on envelopes but are putting it on their website, that is not a reflection of its use as a delivery/addressing support.

Even if every single person in the country knew their postcode by heart and used it all the time does not mean that the design and implementation of it are beyond criticism. Most criticisms of its design and implementation cannot be responded with "well I am using it". For example, if all oscarbravo needs is a unique identifier on the house, it doesn't matter a damn to him how it was designed but elements of the design matter a damn to other people and other users and their criticisms should not be dismissed as irrelevant because it works perfectly for one person. Frankly we could have used emoji and if it was unique, it would have worked for oscarbravo based on his posts in this thread.

No im not. Just because someone is ignorant of the real reason doesn't make it valid for them to claim another reason is responsible.

An Post have been "imposing" their address on people for years and will continue to do so with or without eircode

I recognise the issue with 2 addresses. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, I'd rather we all just had our geographical address. But I understand its origins and I don't make false claims about it.

oscarBravo · 21-11-2015 7:06pm

Calina wrote: »

I'm not sure that you can measure adoption of the postal code by doing an internet search on it.

It's fair to say that it's one metric for adoption; it's also fair to say that it's not by any means a definitive metric. I think it's also fair to say that rejecting a postcode system as "useless" because it hasn't achieved 100% adoption within a couple of months of its introduction is nothing more than typical Irish begrudgery.

Even if every single person in the country knew their postcode by heart and used it all the time does not mean that the design and implementation of it are beyond criticism.

True. Now, if you could only find someone, somewhere who has claimed that it's beyond criticism, you might have a point.

Most criticisms of its design and implementation cannot be responded with "well I am using it". For example, if all oscarbravo needs is a unique identifier on the house, it doesn't matter a damn to him how it was designed but elements of the design matter a damn to other people and other users and their criticisms should not be dismissed as irrelevant because it works perfectly for one person.

No, they shouldn't be dismissed for that reason. I'm arguing against the criticisms because they are high-level, theoretical complaints.

Basically, some people are saying "the code should have been designed in this way, or this other way" (and let's leave aside for a second that most of the ways in which people would have designed it differently are mutually incompatible) - but (with one notable exception) they're not saying "it would have been of benefit to my business/hobby/whatever if it was designed in this way, but as it is I can't use them". They are also saying things that are just downright factually untrue, and if you're going to give out to me for calling people on posting untruths, I don't know what to say to you.

I have never claimed Eircodes are perfect, or beyond criticism. I have pointed out that anyone who claims that they are "useless" or that "nobody is using them" is just partaking in that uniquely Irish pastime of bitching and moaning for their own amusement.

If someone wants to claim that there's something they can't do with Eircodes, but could have if they were designed differently, we can discuss that. If someone wants to claim they are useless and that nobody is using them, that person isn't interested in a discussion.

National Postcodes to be introduced

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