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National Postcodes to be introduced

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    SPDUB wrote: »
    What was your plan to deal with the Irish form of the county names since both Irish and English are allowed to be used on number plates .

    Have you looked at number plates? The two letter (or one) are from the English language version of the name. The Irish language version of the name is written on the top of the number plate.

    @geographer52 Is this a fixed length code?

    I agree with your comments re charging for the use of the code. [Shhhh - don't tell Eircom or they will charge for the phone book! :) ]


  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭MrMorooka


    Eire

    Ireland*


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,104 ✭✭✭plodder


    MrMorooka wrote: »
    Ireland*
    65cstamp.png

    Just sayin' ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭MrMorooka


    plodder wrote: »

    Just sayin' ..

    That's a stamp using the Irish language. In English, which is what we're using on this thread, the name of the state is Ireland, it's very simple.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭BowWow


    ARTICLE 4
    The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English
    language, Ireland.


    Either Éire or Ireland is correct.

    Éire should have the "fada".


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    BowWow wrote: »
    ARTICLE 4
    The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English
    language, Ireland.


    Either Éire or Ireland is correct.

    Éire should have the "fada".

    The rule of thumb for ordinary conversations: Éire nuair a bhíomar ag caint as Gaeilge, Ireland when we were discussing in English.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Can we stick to post codes. rather than stamps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭BowWow


    The rule of thumb for ordinary conversations: Éire nuair a bhíomar ag caint as Gaeilge, Ireland when we were discussing in English.

    Totally agree, but just saying Éire is acceptable.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I have been watching this board for many years and have not felt able to comment, the reason for this was I was party to the bidding process, the group I was bidding with pulled out because we felt that the code structure mandated by DCENR was sub-optimal and hard to justify. In particular I felt that it was a missed opportunity to create the worlds best geo-coding system.

    So how would I know? In the 1980's I ran the UK postcode system and I know what was done wrong in that design and implementation, since that time I have worked with standards bodies allover the world to help people to create and use addresses.

    So what would a good Postcode System look like in Eire?

    The first two Characters would match the car county code.

    Then two numbers would match each significant Townland
    (some Townlands are too small to be included and I know there would be rows and endless discussion, but the current code ignores Irish Geography and History so this would be better despite any inadequacy)

    This would be followed by a second part, mixed alpha numeric that identified one side of a single road between junctions (Americans would call this a block face), a code would exist for every block face even if no properties existed on it.

    A third part not general used would be a two character alpha numeric that identified a property on a block face. This would satisfy DNCER's requirement of identifying properties.

    This code would be universal allowing a satnav to find every street segment in Eire, would allow geo-demographic analysis like the UK and Canadian codes. (As an aside the politicians who suggested that this kind of code generates a "postcode lottery" are confusing cause with effect, it allows government and citizen to see where there is existing inequality)

    We tested this code against the whole road network in Eire and found that it was capable of recording all existing block faces and in the worst case allowed for 100% expansion , given that these would be new roads not properties it is difficult to envisage the circumstance in the next 50 years that would cause re-coding to be needed.

    Finally it seems to me to be completely bizarre that this data and associated addresses are being sold at such a high price, the UK model. When the national benefit from free availability would be much greater, but then politicians the world over like to screw the last penny out of citizens.

    Sounds like an interesting design, with some caveats: first, not every county has a two-character car registration code. Second, does it preserve existing Dublin postcodes? Third, the house and the filling station visible here would have completely different postcodes, right from the very first character - not exactly helpful for organising deliveries. And finally, it's equally subject to two of the criticisms most often levelled at Eircode: it doesn't identify arbitrary (non-postal) locations, and it doesn't identify locations without a database lookup.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sounds like an interesting design, with some caveats: first, not every county has a two-character car registration code. Second, does it preserve existing Dublin postcodes? Third, the house and the filling station visible here would have completely different postcodes, right from the very first character - not exactly helpful for organising deliveries. And finally, it's equally subject to two of the criticisms most often levelled at Eircode: it doesn't identify arbitrary (non-postal) locations, and it doesn't identify locations without a database lookup.

    I think the Dublin post codes could be accommodated by the two digits for the townland, which could incorporate Co. Dublin areas as well.

    If it can identify every 'block face' or side of the road between junctions, then I think that covers every arbitrary place - not exactly but pretty close.

    The database lookup would not be a problem if it was not proprietary and anyway does not go down to every property so it would be smaller.

    The key question is whether it is fixed length or not.


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I think the Dublin post codes could be accommodated by the two digits for the townland, which could incorporate Co. Dublin areas as well.
    Yes, they could. But were they?
    If it can identify every 'block face' or side of the road between junctions, then I think that covers every arbitrary place - not exactly but pretty close.
    Only if we're going to judge this code and Eircodes by completely different standards. What happened to the importance of having a postcode for every electricity pylon?
    The database lookup would not be a problem if it was not proprietary and anyway does not go down to every property so it would be smaller.
    If it doesn't include the exact location of every property, it's missing one of the single most useful aspects of Eircode.

    What's a "not proprietary" database lookup?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭BowWow


    Don't understand why you are even discussing this? Postcodes are here, there wont be another system, the're being used, I'm using them every week in my business successfully, you cant reinvent the wheel......... move on...



    Do you not think its strange that a new poster joins the thread months after their introduction with another suggestion?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yes, they could. But were they? Only if we're going to judge this code and Eircodes by completely different standards. What happened to the importance of having a postcode for every electricity pylon? If it doesn't include the exact location of every property, it's missing one of the single most useful aspects of Eircode.

    What's a "not proprietary" database lookup?

    This was a response to an outline of a possible design that was not pursued, so the details were not given.

    The possible of identifying each and every letterbox was given, but no details of the actual design.

    However, as has been pointed out, the design is now with Eircode (and all its failings) and there will be no other design for the foreseeable future.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    This was a response to an outline of a possible design that was not pursued, so the details were not given.
    I know, that's why I was asking for them. :)
    However, as has been pointed out, the design is now with Eircode (and all its failings) and there will be no other design for the foreseeable future.
    That doesn't seem to have stopped anyone from criticising it... :pac:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That doesn't seem to have stopped anyone from criticising it... :pac:

    Well, criticism was due because it was an awful design. However it is now pointless as it will not improve with age but may gain acceptance (well it has to be accepted because it is the only postcode in town).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    I see loc8 have tweeted a link to that post about the other code design, they tweeted it like it was factual.

    I wonder does loc8 have anything better to do than trash eircode at every opportunity, do they have no business left to run that they have the time for this?

    They tweet nonsense like "urgent public safety issue with eircode" which is complete rubbish, lads yee didn't get the contract and you're annoyed, we get it. But making stuff up and telling lies is no way to conduct yourselves on a public platform.

    No ones buying the whole "it's a safety issue" and that your concern is for the people of Ireland. You have one interest and that's protecting your business.

    If you were truly interested in what's best for the public in emergency situations, you would NOT be promoting your code as a solution, when the locateme112 service is FAR superior and far more effective in an emergency. Why do you advocate use of your postcode for emergency services when it is inferior? Because you're only interested in yourselves and your profits and continuing a smear campaign full of lies and misleading twists on things. It's pretty disgusting at this stage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    Have you looked at number plates? The two letter (or one) are from the English language version of the name. The Irish language version of the name is written on the top of the number plate

    Have you looked at number plates? I've seen cars with BAC instead of D as the main county designator driving around Dublin .

    Apart from how you would deal with the use of 2 different forms in a postcode , would you write a little BAC over D for Dublin or LG over WX for Wexford )


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Have you looked at number plates? I've seen cars with BAC instead of D as the main county designator driving around Dublin .

    Apart from how you would deal with the use of 2 different forms in a postcode , would you write a little BAC over D for Dublin or LG over WX for Wexford )
    Like, 151-BAC-1234??


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Have you looked at number plates? I've seen cars with BAC instead of D as the main county designator driving around Dublin .

    Apart from how you would deal with the use of 2 different forms in a postcode , would you write a little BAC over D for Dublin or LG over WX for Wexford )

    They are false number plates if they have BAC on them. The number plate should show the same as the registration document otherwise it is false and hence illegal.

    Can we not discuss number plates or postage stamps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭BowWow


    ukoda wrote: »
    I see loc8 have tweeted a link to that post about the other code design, they tweeted it like it was factual.

    I wonder does loc8 have anything better to do than trash eircode at every opportunity, do they have no business left to run that they have the time for this?

    They tweet nonsense like "urgent public safety issue with eircode" which is complete rubbish, lads yee didn't get the contract and you're annoyed, we get it. But making stuff up and telling lies is no way to conduct yourselves on a public platform.

    No ones buying the whole "it's a safety issue" and that your concern is for the people of Ireland. You have one interest and that's protecting your business.

    If you were truly interested in what's best for the public in emergency situations, you would NOT be promoting your code as a solution, when the locateme112 service is FAR superior and far more effective in an emergency. Why do you advocate use of your postcode for emergency services when it is inferior? Because you're only interested in yourselves and your profits and continuing a smear campaign full of lies and misleading twists on things. It's pretty disgusting at this stage.



    loc8 seem like sad bitter people at this stage, they need to get over it and move on with their lives. I'm suspicious that this other new potential code emanates in the loc8 stable.....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,104 ✭✭✭plodder


    BowWow wrote: »
    Don't understand why you are even discussing this? Postcodes are here, there wont be another system, the're being used, I'm using them every week in my business successfully, you cant reinvent the wheel......... move on...
    We're stuck with Eircode clearly, but that doesn't mean it makes no sense to discuss its faults, or hypothetical alternatives.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    plodder wrote: »
    We're stuck with Eircode clearly, but that doesn't mean it makes no sense to discuss its faults, or hypothetical alternatives.

    Sure. It would be nice to discuss them honestly, though - and that has sometimes been missing from the debate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,104 ✭✭✭plodder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sure. It would be nice to discuss them honestly, though - and that has sometimes been missing from the debate.
    I think the majority of posters are expressing honestly held opinions.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    plodder wrote: »
    I think the majority of posters are expressing honestly held opinions.
    "I think Eircodes are badly designed" is an honestly-held opinion. "Nobody is using Eircodes" is not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,033 ✭✭✭OU812


    I have been watching this board for many years and have not felt able to comment, the reason for this was I was party to the bidding process, the group I was bidding with pulled out because we felt that the code structure mandated by DCENR was sub-optimal and hard to justify. In particular I felt that it was a missed opportunity to create the worlds best geo-coding system.

    So how would I know? In the 1980's I ran the UK postcode system and I know what was done wrong in that design and implementation, since that time I have worked with standards bodies allover the world to help people to create and use addresses.

    So what would a good Postcode System look like in Eire?

    The first two Characters would match the car county code.

    Then two numbers would match each significant Townland
    (some Townlands are too small to be included and I know there would be rows and endless discussion, but the current code ignores Irish Geography and History so this would be better despite any inadequacy)

    This would be followed by a second part, mixed alpha numeric that identified one side of a single road between junctions (Americans would call this a block face), a code would exist for every block face even if no properties existed on it.

    A third part not general used would be a two character alpha numeric that identified a property on a block face. This would satisfy DNCER's requirement of identifying properties.

    This code would be universal allowing a satnav to find every street segment in Eire, would allow geo-demographic analysis like the UK and Canadian codes. (As an aside the politicians who suggested that this kind of code generates a "postcode lottery" are confusing cause with effect, it allows government and citizen to see where there is existing inequality)

    We tested this code against the whole road network in Eire and found that it was capable of recording all existing block faces and in the worst case allowed for 100% expansion , given that these would be new roads not properties it is difficult to envisage the circumstance in the next 50 years that would cause re-coding to be needed.

    Finally it seems to me to be completely bizarre that this data and associated addresses are being sold at such a high price, the UK model. When the national benefit from free availability would be much greater, but then politicians the world over like to screw the last penny out of citizens.


    Could the existing system be adapted to use this? The current random code would become hidden, the current routing key could be expanded & include other "non postal" areas & a first part could be added which would become the "Block Face"


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,104 ✭✭✭plodder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    "I think Eircodes are badly designed" is an honestly-held opinion. "Nobody is using Eircodes" is not.
    That's obviously incorrect when read literally. I think the more subtle the dishonesty, the more egregious it is though, but I'm not going down that rat hole today.

    This is the internet anyway, and far worse things are being said elsewhere - like today's Irish Examiner, and in the Dail. Whatever happened about that claim that 89% of the public know their Eircode? That was obviously false.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Well, criticism was due because it was an awful design. However it is now pointless as it will not improve with age but may gain acceptance (well it has to be accepted because it is the only postcode in town).

    The only major criticism I've seen of it is that it's non-hierarchical, hardly relevant in an age of computer databases and mobile internet.

    Apart from that, the fact is that it's a postcode, intended to identify postal addresses, not a geocode.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The only major criticism I've seen of it is that it's non-hierarchical, hardly relevant in an age of computer databases and mobile internet.

    Apart from that, the fact is that it's a postcode, intended to identify postal addresses, not a geocode.

    There are several criticisms.

    1. It is based on routing codes that have no relevance on the ground. Some are non-contiguous, and many cross county boundaries.

    2. The routing codes are over large in some areas and quite small in others.

    3. The routing codes are based on a subset of An Post's postal towns. They have about 2,000 of them but have reduced them to about 100.

    4. The retention of Dublin post codes was part of the spec but should have been incorporated differently as it has led to too large an area for each single routing code.

    5. The random element is just daft.

    6. It appears to be designed to maximise its use for monetizing the database.

    Although the code is designed as a postcode, it could have been the basis for many other uses, such as navigation, statistical analysis, etc. However, we dumped the PayPars and eVoting, and we are in the process of joining the two Luas lines, so we will find a way of living with Eircode - but it could have been so much more. Remember, the Harcourt St line was closed by Todd Andrews for political/personal reasons, and has cost the state a huge amount to replace it 50 years later.

    Eircode did not need to be based on An Post's method of handling post because they are fully computerised and fully automated, so any code would do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭MBSnr




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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    There are several criticisms.

    1. It is based on routing codes that have no relevance on the ground. Some are non-contiguous, and many cross county boundaries.

    2. The routing codes are over large in some areas and quite small in others.

    3. The routing codes are based on a subset of An Post's postal towns. They have about 2,000 of them but have reduced them to about 100.

    4. The retention of Dublin post codes was part of the spec but should have been incorporated differently as it has led to too large an area for each single routing code.

    5. The random element is just daft.
    These criticisms amount, in sum, to "I would have designed it differently".

    I have precisely one requirement of a postcode: that it tell me the precise location of the premises to which it refers. Eircode meets that requirement, and as such is working very nicely for me.
    6. It appears to be designed to maximise its use for monetizing the database.
    This criticism amounts to "I want to be able to access it without paying for it". Which you can, unless you need to access more than 15 per day, at which point it's hard to argue that your requirements don't justify paying for the information.
    Although the code is designed as a postcode, it could have been the basis for many other uses, such as navigation, statistical analysis, etc.
    It still can. You have convinced yourself that such uses could only have been made of a code if all the relevant information was stored in the code itself. It's actually a lot more efficient to store that information in a database.
    MBSnr wrote: »
    However, one senior fire officer said: “As it is, Eircode is worse than useless.”

    "Worse than useless" implies that it's actively harmful in some way; that the job of the emergency services has been made more difficult by Eircodes. Given that he doesn't explain how this is the case, I think it's fair to say that he's suffering from the same reflexive criticism problem that we've seen all too much of in this thread.


This discussion has been closed.
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