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Diesel's days are numbered.

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Comments

  • #152
    seamusk84
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭seamusk84


    Stereomaniac wrote: »
    But are people not entitled to own whatever sort of car that they want, like what sort of a problem could I possibly have whether someone has a petrol or a diesel car? It's fairly unimaginable.

    Not when new studies are showing how harmful Diesel engine emissions are to human health. Private diesel cars should and will be heavily taxed in the future now that the truth is coming out. This is why Paris won't allow private diesel cars in the city by 2020 and I look forward to the rest of Europe following.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/15/nearly-9500-people-die-each-year-in-london-because-of-air-pollution-study


  • #153
    Long Time Lurker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭Long Time Lurker


    Grueller wrote: »
    Interesting but flawed. Price of goods at the till will be effected too much. Heavy haulage and even light commercials all run on diesel.

    The medium term future for mid and large commercial vehicles will probably be diesel-electric with much smaller capacity engines and no direct ICE drive to the wheels. There's plenty of working and prototype versions of these vehicles in existence and London has buses powered in such a way already. These are far more fuel efficient than direct drive traditional diesels.

    Personal transport for short to medium journeys is going to change radically though over the next few years. The simple fact of the matter is that taxation is skewing the cost viability of diesel ownership with some very flawed science to back it up. Will our Government reduce taxes on cleaner fuels? Nope and I'm not that naive to think they'll balance things up that way. They'll just lump up diesel taxes and let us figure it out ourselves.

    The sooner real world statistics get used and real world taxation is imposed then the better say I. Diesel is a fallacy and it's doing us serious harm. Time to stop the farce.


  • #154
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,540 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Long Time Lurker wrote: »
    The simple fact of the matter is that taxation is skewing the cost viability of diesel ownership with some very flawed science to back it up. Will our Government reduce taxes on cleaner fuels? Nope and I'm not that naive to think they'll balance things up that way. They'll just lump up diesel taxes and let us figure it out ourselves.

    The sooner real world statistics get used and real world taxation is imposed then the better say I. Diesel is a fallacy and it's doing us serious harm. Time to stop the farce.
    Yup.
    Marketing, lobbying, protectionism and pseudo science.

    Nothing to do with the environment and the so called green parties and green movements have damaged themselves big time by jumping on the diesel bandwagon. IMHO at least, nobody with an ounce of scientific credibility would have believed diesel was a clean fuel, or could definitely be made clean.

    How can you believe anything from a quarter that endorsed diesel as a clean healthy way to reduce that horrible substance we all breathe out, rather than saying "ok it's good for reducing gaseous plant food emissions, but man there is some nasty nasty side effects. And they sound terrible too!"

    You can be damn sure that 10c environmental green party levy on every litre of petrol is never coming off.
    Will 10c be put on diesel? Maybe. Will the balance be tipped the other way with another 10c on top of that? Not likely. Motor tax rates will slowly rise to somewhere near where they were before, with some tweaks to consider initial purchase price along with the plant food emissions maybe.


  • #155
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,745 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Long Time Lurker wrote: »
    The medium term future for mid and large commercial vehicles will probably be diesel-electric with much smaller capacity engines and no direct ICE drive to the wheels. There's plenty of working and prototype versions of these vehicles in existence and London has buses powered in such a way already. These are far more fuel efficient than direct drive traditional diesels.

    EXCEPT.. they're not! Seems there's issues with the battery that require replacement and the net effect is that the diesel engine is working more than it needs to.

    Note also the point about being slow to pull off, rolling backwards on slopes and stalling. According to this thread over in C&T, Dublin Bus has performance and quality issues with its newer fleet as well as compromises are made in the name of efficiency/saving the trees!

    I'm with the good Doctor above on this one.. while there are certainly cases where petrol is a better choice, for many of us a diesel is the only economical option - I myself do a 200km trip every day with another 3/400km on top of that most weekends. Fuel bill comes to about €550 each month. If someone can find me a petrol that'll return those sort of numbers and which is equivalent to my 3L A6 then cool :)

    But as long as we have a Government that has allowed a housing crisis to develop so that people like myself are priced out of Dublin but still have to work there (just like in the Good Times) then diesels are still the only option and traffic chaos will still be with us.

    But to be fair this is a Motors forum and the opinions are going to be skewed in favour of big petrol motors - or "real cars" if you prefer.
    It's the same attitude that comes out with the taxation issue.. "everyone should pay higher fuel costs.. so I can run my big petrol barge/sportscar at the weekend!"
    This whole notion of "fairness" that it's cloaked in (whether it's cars, IW, or any "user pays" argument) is just a smokescreen for good old "I don't want someone else 'getting away with' something I'm not!" Irish begrudgery!


  • #156
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,214 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    ...It's the same attitude that comes out with the taxation issue.. "everyone should pay higher fuel costs.. so I can run my big petrol barge/sportscar at the weekend!"
    This whole notion of "fairness" that it's cloaked in (whether it's cars, IW, or any "user pays" argument) is just a smokescreen for good old "I don't want someone else 'getting away with' something I'm not!" Irish begrudgery!

    Pay as you use, pay as you pollute. You want to burn fuel, you pay. You don't, you don't. Perfectly simple, perfectly fair. But as long as the real objective, i.e. making money and pandering to the needs of buddies in the motor industry, is cloaked in a mere veneer of "saving the Environment", we will be where we are. :D


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  • #157
    Gazzmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Gazzmonkey


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    But to be fair this is a Motors forum and the opinions are going to be skewed in favour of big petrol motors - or "real cars" if you prefer.
    It's the same attitude that comes out with the taxation issue.. "everyone should pay higher fuel costs.. so I can run my big petrol barge/sportscar at the weekend!"
    This whole notion of "fairness" that it's cloaked in (whether it's cars, IW, or any "user pays" argument) is just a smokescreen for good old "I don't want someone else 'getting away with' something I'm not!" Irish begrudgery!

    You hit the nail on the head there Kaiser


  • #158
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    EXCEPT.. they're not! Seems there's issues with the battery that require replacement and the net effect is that the diesel engine is working more than it needs to.

    Note also the point about being slow to pull off, rolling backwards on slopes and stalling. According to this thread over in C&T, Dublin Bus has performance and quality issues with its newer fleet as well as compromises are made in the name of efficiency/saving the trees!

    I'm with the good Doctor above on this one.. while there are certainly cases where petrol is a better choice, for many of us a diesel is the only economical option - I myself do a 200km trip every day with another 3/400km on top of that most weekends. Fuel bill comes to about €550 each month. If someone can find me a petrol that'll return those sort of numbers and which is equivalent to my 3L A6 then cool :)

    But as long as we have a Government that has allowed a housing crisis to develop so that people like myself are priced out of Dublin but still have to work there (just like in the Good Times) then diesels are still the only option and traffic chaos will still be with us.

    But to be fair this is a Motors forum and the opinions are going to be skewed in favour of big petrol motors - or "real cars" if you prefer.
    It's the same attitude that comes out with the taxation issue.. "everyone should pay higher fuel costs.. so I can run my big petrol barge/sportscar at the weekend!"
    This whole notion of "fairness" that it's cloaked in (whether it's cars, IW, or any "user pays" argument) is just a smokescreen for good old "I don't want someone else 'getting away with' something I'm not!" Irish begrudgery!

    You'll get no thanks talking sense like that here!
    The general tone of the thread is "Everything should pander to me and my 3+ liter weekend petrol barge and fcuk the commuter".

    OK, here's my challenge again:
    If anyone even bothered their backside reading my posts laying out my cost for my commute, I am still waiting on someone telling me how I can do it for the same money in the darling pet of this forum, the BMW 535i.
    No?
    Cause you don't give a sh*te, as long as you can spend €20 driving your weekend car 2 miles to the shop, cafe, pub, cars & coffee and back. That is NOT the primary application of a car. It is to get people to work and to the shop. I know it's boring and old fashioned and you hate all those boring, grey commuters who wouldn't know if their car is FWD or RWD, but you know, THAT is the fcuking POINT of cars!

    I keep hearing "Oh you should drive a 2 liter turbo petrol", pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

    I'd say hybrids or electrics will become a viable alternative soon and then we ALL will have to switch, because by then it will turn out that those 1 liter, 260 bhp whizzbang petrols don't really do 60+ mpg and that the emissions figures are a lot of horsesh*t and by now the petrol boys have their fingers in their ears going "LALALALALALAAA!!!!!! PETROL IS GREAT! I CAN'T HEAAAR YOU!!"

    The thread title should read "ICE's days are numbered", because they are, eventually emissions regulations will be so tight, petrol won't be able to do it. let's face it, you burn something, you will end up with undesirable end results. So to say diesel is dirty and then go on to say that petrol is as clean as a unicorn's fart with a straight face, at this stage you are just trolling.


  • #159
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭creedp


    Grueller wrote: »
    Interesting but flawed. Price of goods at the till will be effected too much. Heavy haulage and even light commercials all run on diesel.

    In the end the final consumer pays for all so whether is be a substantial increase in the cost of personal motoring or a lessor increase in the cost of motoring coupled with some price inflation it really doesn't matter. Can never really understand why its such a no no for many to increase costs for commercial transport and agriculture while at the same time vehemently supporting the polluter pays principle.

    If people want to buy goods/services on an environmentally sustainable basis the full cost of transport should be factored into the purchase price .. otherwise complaining that people driving ICE powered cars for the purposes of work commute etc should be more heavily taxed in order to protect the environment for the rest is being selective and narrow minded.


  • #160
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,214 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    You'll get no thanks talking sense like that here!
    The general tone of the thread is "Everything should pander to me and my 3+ liter weekend petrol barge and fcuk the commuter"...

    Umm, I commute in my 3+ liter petrol barge! Lookit, if they did away with this ridiculous motor tax and put it on the fuel, you'd probably find keeping a 535i for the weekend becomes feasable! :D


  • #161
    Tippjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭Tippjohn


    All i know is that my new diesel with blue additive and soot burner is more efficient and less polluting. I am getting 25% less fuel consumption so that cannot be bad?
    The road tax on cars here is a rip off, putting the cost up is just another rip off. Who uses a car for fun it is always for a reason.


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  • #162
    Long Time Lurker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭Long Time Lurker


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    You'll get no thanks talking sense like that here!
    The general tone of the thread is "Everything should pander to me and my 3+ liter weekend petrol barge and fcuk the commuter".

    OK, here's my challenge again:
    If anyone even bothered their backside reading my posts laying out my cost for my commute, I am still waiting on someone telling me how I can do it for the same money in the darling pet of this forum, the BMW 535i.
    No?
    Cause you don't give a sh*te, as long as you can spend €20 driving your weekend car 2 miles to the shop, cafe, pub, cars & coffee and back. That is NOT the primary application of a car. It is to get people to work and to the shop. I know it's boring and old fashioned and you hate all those boring, grey commuters who wouldn't know if their car is FWD or RWD, but you know, THAT is the fcuking POINT of cars!

    I keep hearing "Oh you should drive a 2 liter turbo petrol", pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

    I'd say hybrids or electrics will become a viable alternative soon and then we ALL will have to switch, because by then it will turn out that those 1 liter, 260 bhp whizzbang petrols don't really do 60+ mpg and that the emissions figures are a lot of horsesh*t and by now the petrol boys have their fingers in their ears going "LALALALALALAAA!!!!!! PETROL IS GREAT! I CAN'T HEAAAR YOU!!"

    The thread title should read "ICE's days are numbered", because they are, eventually emissions regulations will be so tight, petrol won't be able to do it. let's face it, you burn something, you will end up with undesirable end results. So to say diesel is dirty and then go on to say that petrol is as clean as a unicorn's fart with a straight face, at this stage you are just trolling.

    To be fair that's the greatest load of nonsense spoken in here, despite some of the personal offence been taken by the diesel defenders, and its clear you missed the objectivity of this thread. ICE as we all know is done longer term. Being objective though (that excludes your own personal preference and current expenditure) I think its fair to say that diesels days (in personal transport) are numbered far quicker.

    Keep the mines better than yours argument for somewhere else. If you cant be objective ( or maybe you do actually think diesel has a bright future) then really there's no point.


  • #163
    paleoperson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    jimgoose wrote: »
    Umm, I commute in my 3+ liter petrol barge! Lookit, if they did away with this ridiculous motor tax and put it on the fuel, you'd probably find keeping a 535i for the weekend becomes feasable! :D

    Do you ever read a post and a cold chill runs down your spine at the previously thought impossible nonsense of it?


  • #164
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,721 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Tippjohn wrote: »
    All i know is that my new diesel with blue additive and soot burner is more efficient and less polluting. I am getting 25% less fuel consumption so that cannot be bad?
    The road tax on cars here is a rip off, putting the cost up is just another rip off. Who uses a car for fun it is always for a reason.

    Well I drive my 3.6l flat six for fun, and yes motor tax is a rip off.
    But I remain to be convinced that your car is actually as non-polluting as you think......adding a chemical (AdBlue) to emissions AFTER they've been created by combustion is not clean : it's just fudging the test, that's all...

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #165
    Tippjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭Tippjohn


    They have only been created becasue they were capable of existing in the first place. Might be an idea to look at the chemical process before commenting. As for burning things, that is in fact nature or do we all freeze to daeth and not eat? There are Volcanos and constant wars creating pollution. Shall we ban wars and volcanos?


  • #166
    Long Time Lurker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭Long Time Lurker


    Tippjohn wrote: »
    They have only been created becasue they were capable of existing in the first place. Might be an idea to look at the chemical process before commenting. As for burning things, that is in fact nature or do we all freeze to daeth and not eat? There are Volcanos and constant wars creating pollution. Shall we ban wars and volcanos?

    Come on. That's just not constructive. People are taking this thread to he abrasive, one that's militant in some way. This is simply not the point. I never started this thread with an us and them motive. I was simply commenting on what I thought was the blindingly obvious. Can any of us really think diesel has anything other than a short term future in personal modes of transport? Surely not!


  • #167
    Tippjohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭Tippjohn


    It has been around since the start of the internal combustion engine. France decided to pull the "glow" plug on diesels due to NOX. The Motor manufacturers countered.
    It may be blindingly obvious to you from your stance, I am only stating realism.
    As for being constructive, I am afraid that is up to those least able to construct anything, the politicians that we vote for.
    Perhaps we could agree that humans are the worse pollution and that they thrive due to politicaly created imballance.
    I am not going away, I will drive as long as I am able, it is the only way I can have a life.
    BTW happy to have a horse/carriage whatever as long as everyone does the same, I think the world would be better that way.


  • #168
    Long Time Lurker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭Long Time Lurker


    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2016/02/18/eu-urged-to-axe-support-for-diesel/


  • #169
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,540 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Long Time Lurker wrote: »
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2016/02/18/eu-urged-to-axe-support-for-diesel/


    I think it will be years before the Greens admit their science was closer to fiction than fact on the whole "CO2 is Satan, diesel is good petrol is evil" thing. It's a bit of an inconvenient truth that would make people question all sorts of so called environmental policies and "facts".

    Pseudo-scientists handed European governments and car manufacturers a golden opportunity to beat us with the stick of CO2, and much like our own Green party didn't have the nerve to cry halt when they saw how wrong the whole thing was.


  • #170
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Long Time Lurker wrote: »
    Come on. That's just not constructive. People are taking this thread to he abrasive, one that's militant in some way. This is simply not the point. I never started this thread with an us and them motive. I was simply commenting on what I thought was the blindingly obvious. Can any of us really think diesel has anything other than a short term future in personal modes of transport? Surely not!

    Anyone who thinks that diesel will be banned and gone from cars (what about buses, trucks, trains, boats, generators, industrial plant?), but petrol V8's will thrive for another hundred years to come is delusional. Petrol will go smaller and smaller until the Ford Galaxy has a 27 turbo, 600cc petrol engine the size of an iPhone. And then suddenly people will realize that those kind of engines aren't any better:
    http://articles.sae.org/13624/
    http://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/GDI%20Briefing_final_T&E.pdf

    There will be diesel, there will be petrol, but in the long run, both are dead. But the real problem is a lack of alternative. Humanity was just too happy to sit on it's hands as long as ICE worked.


  • #171
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,596 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    Europe says diesel, Ireland says OK.


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  • #172
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,540 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks that diesel will be banned and gone from cars (what about buses, trucks, trains, boats, generators, industrial plant?), but petrol V8's will thrive for another hundred years to come is delusional. Petrol will go smaller and smaller until the Ford Galaxy has a 27 turbo, 600cc petrol engine the size of an iPhone. And then suddenly people will realize that those kind of engines aren't any better:
    http://articles.sae.org/13624/
    http://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/GDI%20Briefing_final_T&E.pdf

    There will be diesel, there will be petrol, but in the long run, both are dead. But the real problem is a lack of alternative. Humanity was just too happy to sit on it's hands as long as ICE worked.

    Grand doc, it's quite plausible that europe will end up with some other bizarre illogical set of rules that will fvck up petrols too.

    Or we might come in line with the states and Japan and pretty normal petrols will still be viable right up until the time they kick down your door put a gun to your head and demand the keys for your diesel, and make you promise to buy a Leaf mark5.

    The fact is... the diesel is good thing will end up in the history books somewhere next to "they are highly educated European language speaking family rearing progressive types who just want a safe country they can integrate into and be grateful for it. OPEN THE GATES!".


  • #173
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    I can't wait to see what kind of MPG a 16 liter V8 petrol Scania will return. :rolleyes:


  • #174
    Lellostag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭Lellostag


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I can't wait to see what kind of MPG a 16 liter V8 petrol Scania will return. :rolleyes:

    Reminds me of my army service days way back, we had an old Russian tank for a practice day which was equipped with a huge petrol engine, mileage was apparently about 1 litre per kilometre! ;)


  • #175
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,540 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    I can't wait to see what kind of MPG a 16 liter V8 petrol Scania will return. :rolleyes:

    Grand, if your position is that the only options are "petrol for hauling, mining, moving ships" or "small capacity diesels are saving the world and have no downsides and without them we are doomed".... there's just no reasoning with that.

    Those of us with a grasp of science and common sense will continue to regard the institutional diesel worship as an economic policy to suit our European masters rather than a credible environmental policy. No matter how they dress it up.


  • #176
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    So, what's your thinking on trucks and buses, etc... You seem to be neatly sidestepping that question.


  • #177
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    big diesels are lovely things

    but you could go gas :

    .


  • #178
    pburns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭pburns


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    I think it will be years before the Greens admit their science was closer to fiction than fact on the whole "CO2 is Satan, diesel is good petrol is evil" thing. It's a bit of an inconvenient truth that would make people question all sorts of so called environmental policies and "facts".

    Pseudo-scientists handed European governments and car manufacturers a golden opportunity to beat us with the stick of CO2, and much like our own Green party didn't have the nerve to cry halt when they saw how wrong the whole thing was.

    The problems with the Greens is they are very quick to tell us what's wrong but the solutions they propose usually make things worse and are practical in the short-term only because some corporation is getting a subsidy.

    The scrappage scheme for example - how is it environmentally friendly to prematurely destroy perfectly serviceable cars with years of life left in them? The only ones who benefited were the motor manufacturers. Similarly we've got these giant windfarms planned that are massively inefficient, don't work when the wind doesn't blow, can't be turned on if the wind blows too hard, have no way of storing energy and need fossil-fuel generation as 'back-up'.

    Loadsa subsidies tho - fill up yer boots!:D


  • #179
    Lellostag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭Lellostag


    pburns wrote: »
    The problems with the Greens is they are very quick to tell us what's wrong but the solutions they propose usually make things worse and are practical in the short-term only because some corporation is getting a subsidy.

    The scrappage scheme for example - how is it environmentally friendly to prematurely destroy perfectly serviceable cars with years of life left in them? The only ones who benefited were the motor manufacturers. Similarly we've got these giant windfarms planned that are massively inefficient, don't work when the wind doesn't blow, can't be turned on if the wind blows too hard, have no way of storing energy and need fossil-fuel generation as 'back-up'.

    Loadsa subsidies tho - fill up yer boots!:D

    I would by and large tend to agree with you, the only "solutions" the Greens ever came up with was to introduce taxes to combat whatever that was seen as an encironmental issue...


  • #180
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,575 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Lellostag wrote: »
    I would by and large tend to agree with you, the only "solutions" the Greens ever came up with was to introduce taxes to combat whatever that was seen as an encironmental issue...

    Absolutely. Their entire policy is tax and ban and as an alternative have us all drive milk floats.


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  • #181
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,540 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    So, what's your thinking on trucks and buses, etc... You seem to be neatly sidestepping that question.

    Cost/benefit/efficiency of diesel for these works out. Emissions (bad ones, not CO2) out for work done are surely better... you only need to go to 3.0d to pass california emissions tests rather than all these toxic microdiesels.

    Nobody is claiming diesel has no applications and must be done away with, that would be as non sensical as the greenies attitude to petrol.


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