Diesel's days are numbered.

Long Time Lurker

http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/627c6812-7faf-11e4-adff-00144feabdc0.html

It has begun. The great big myth about diesel being more environmentally friendly is finally being exposed. While less of it is burned per kilometre driven (thus creating leas Co2) it emits far more NOx which in essence makes us all very sick. With recent trends towards diesels in Europe it would seem air quality, especially in large cities, has declined rapidly. Now European politicians are beginning to act with widespread bans on diesels likely to be introduced in certain parts of the continent.

Can't say I'm disappointed myself. Diesel MPG figures have been hugely manipulated by the manufacturers for years.Being sold on their cheaper to run and environmental benefits was just a total falacy it would seem. The reality would now appear to be that its actually far less damaging for the environment to burn a little extra petrol to do the same journey. Fingers crossed our government sees the logic, reduces taxation on petrol and doesn't give in to the (many) diesel lobbyists.

I for one will not lament the coming extinction of the diesel in the family car. Like for like sized turbo petrols are still millennia ahead in power delivery, emissions, weight and most of all noise, despite the claimed advancements of the derv over the past few years.

colm_mcm

This was news about 15 years ago

Long Time Lurker

colm_mcm wrote: »

This was news about 15 years ago

Its always been known. Its just that now its being accepted. Remember EU regs were essentially driving ( no pun intended) the popularity of derv. It would seem both they and the manufactures have now conceded that the proposed emission controls are simply not achievable.

BreadnBuddha

Subscription required to read that article.

In other news, so what?

You think it'll change quickly?

You 'hope' the government will reduce tax on petrol? Would you ever get real.

You might read the FT but those aren't looking like realistic or intelligent expectations to me.

I'll stick with my oul diesel yoke. You can have the new 3 cylinder petrol turbo euro box with a battery and the replacement costs, charging hassles and environmental impacts from producing and recharging them for all I care. If it salves your conscience, have at it.

As long as there's a way to put a suitable fuel in the tank I'll be driving a diesel car first.

Long Time Lurker

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Subscription required to read that article.

In other news, so what?

You think it'll change quickly?

You 'hope' the government will reduce tax on petrol? Would you ever get real.

You might read the FT but those aren't looking like realistic or intelligent expectations to me.

I'll stick with my oul diesel yoke. You can have the new 3 cylinder petrol turbo euro box with a battery and the replacement costs, charging hassles and environmental impacts from producing and recharging them for all I care. If it salves your conscience, have at it.

As long as there's a way to put a suitable fuel in the tank I'll be driving a diesel car first.

What about a 2 litre twin turbo petrol. What if the fuel was taxed in such a way that the mpg benefits of diesel were negated. Would you be open to change? Is your love of diesel simply the cost saving? It can't be for any performance advantage over a like for like petrol fueled equivalent! A similar sized petrol out performs a similar size diesel. Are you aware of the potential harm you're doing to yourself and others!

seamusk84

I have always been a petrol man myself. Smooth delivery of power and generally less maintenance.

Also I take that air quality issue seriously. Those diesel fumes can really mess us up. Sure in Paris they are looking for a ban on diesel cars by 2020.....twill happen here too! (Or the motor tax on non commercial diesels will be jacked right up...the old irish solution)

CiniO

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

EU regs were essentially driving ( no pun intended) the popularity of derv.

Which EU regs pushed popularity of diesels?

St. Leibowitz

I think it will change quickly. Paris is considering banning diesel cars by 2020. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26678-paris-says-non-to-diesel-in-antipollution-push.html#.VNfuUi7JJhA

London is considering increasing the congestion charge for diesels by adding an extra £10. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/11280067/London-will-follow-Paris-and-ban-diesel-cars-campaigners-warn.html

Even if this doesn't happen, as the debate increases, the prospect of buying a car which may become unusable, very expensive to run, but most importantly, unsellable will frighten buyers into steering clear of diesel. This is likely become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Long Time Lurker

CiniO wrote: »

Which EU regs pushed popularity of diesels?

Co2 limitations.

http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars/index_en.htm

Which are utter nonsense anyway as makers hide behind stop start systems, manipulation of the vehicles being tested and the overall Co2 count of some brands being hidden by lumping lots of different brands together i.e. Ferrari which hides it's Co2 emissions by being part of the Fiat Group.

Special Circumstances

Anyone with any sense knows that diesel is unhealthy (this would appear to rule out green politicians). It has applications but every vehicle in built up places is not it. You can't blame people for taking advantage of the incentives I suppose - if I was worried about resale then I'd have to buy derv even if the sound of the thing starting would take a little off my life every time, never mind the particulates and nox.

BreadnBuddha

I don't live in a city, my car isn't particularly fuel efficient and I like driving large engined petrol cars. That said, diesel suits my needs and the EU won't be able to stop everyone from driving diesel cars, not for a very long time. It might not be as easy, but a total halt is many, many years away yet.

Long Time Lurker

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I don't live in a city, my car isn't particularly fuel efficient and I like driving large engined petrol cars. That said, diesel suits my needs and the EU won't be able to stop everyone from driving diesel cars, not for a very long time. It might not be as easy, but a total halt is many, many years away yet.

To be honest I think the complete opposite is true. This is being forced and lobbied by the manufacturers as much as anything as they l finally admit they cannot get down to the low emission standard that the EU are demanding with diesel engines. I'd say the change will be sharp and quick. In faintness even our bunch of halfwits managed to influence such a radical shift in buying trends back in 2008 with the motor tax changes.

DanWall

Diesels are already becoming more unreliable because of environmental controls, e,g, DP filter needs a good run or has an extra injector to burn off deposits. An EGR valve to recirculate and burn exhaust gas, which occasionally blocks up with carbon, Diesels are now fitted with expensive Dual Mass Flywheels if replacement is required.

Atlantic Dawn

Diesel has no business in modern cities, should be banned like smokey coal.

goz83

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Diesel has no business in modern cities, should be banned like smokey coal.

I dont care how much filtering they do. It's quite obvious when you're behind a diesel car in traffic, especially on a mild/sunny day. Takes the freedom out of driving, as the windows are up all the time and god forbid you were driving a convertible, you'd be black by the time you get through any town, or village with traffic.

Petrol head all the way.......and im in a merc

jimgoose

Imagine, the new badass rebel, instead of Clarkson with 5l V8 will be a shaven-headed Chungfellit from Cyaaavan evangelising de Shmoke an' de Booo, laaad!

NIMAN

Imagine liking your car sounding like a tractor.

old_aussie

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

What about a 2 litre twin turbo petrol. What if the fuel was taxed in such a way that the mpg benefits of diesel were negated. Would you be open to change? Is your love of diesel simply the cost saving? It can't be for any performance advantage over a like for like petrol fueled equivalent! A similar sized petrol out performs a similar size diesel. Are you aware of the potential harm you're doing to yourself and others!

What if, Those two words negate your argument

The J Stands for Jay

The worst thing about diesel is the noise. Since 08, Dublin has gotten so noisy with all the tractor engines. It's not right seeing a brand new beemer then it starts up and makes a noise like a Massey 135.

Cee-Jay-Cee

No doubt the Irish gubberment will make some sort of revelationary announcement about changes to the motor tax system to take into account the new information on diesel pollution....in 30 years time

C4Kid

Recently I took up cycling, wish I had done it before the diesel obsession took over. Imagine it, your doing your best to be somewhat green and healthy. Thanks to circumstances out of your control what do you get?

Poisoned every time a diesel passes you (most cars nowadays) and you are stuck injesting fumes for most of your journey on the road. Maybe I too should just buy diesel and say fu*k you to the earth as well.

Cycling is going to become quite unhealthy in my view in this form.

dieselbug

McGaggs wrote: »

The worst thing about diesel is the noise. Since 08, Dublin has gotten so noisy with all the tractor engines. It's not right seeing a brand new beemer then it starts up and makes a noise like a Massey 135.

A Massey Ferguson 135 has a 3 cyl Perkins engine, any new BMW that sounds like this needs to be brought back to where it was bought from and Dublin has always been noisy

Cleveland Hot Pocket

NIMAN wrote: »

Imagine liking your car sounding like a tractor.

Some of us don't need to imagine.

mickdw

dieselbug wrote: »

A Massey Ferguson 135 has a 3 cyl Perkins engine, any new BMW that sounds like this needs to be brought back to where it was bought from and Dublin has always been noisy

I believe a 135 is a 4 cylinder so similar in that regard to the majority of bmw being sold.
4 cylinder diesel has no place in an executive car no matter how refined.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

mickdw wrote: »

I believe a 135 is a 4 cylinder so similar in that regard to the majority of bmw being sold.
4 cylinder diesel has no place in an executive car no matter how refined.

The difference in engine note between a 4-pot (tractor) and 6-pot (much more refined) is tremendous.
I love my tractory diesels so I do. But they have no place in a e60/f10

dieselbug

mickdw wrote: »

I believe a 135 is a 4 cylinder so similar in that regard to the majority of bmw being sold.
4 cylinder diesel has no place in an executive car no matter how refined.

No, definitely 3cyl Perkins, trust me I saw enough of them stripped in my youth.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/7/4/743-massey-ferguson-135-engine.html

Markcheese

dieselbug wrote: »

No, definitely 3cyl Perkins, trust me I saw enough of them stripped in my youth.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/7/4/743-massey-ferguson-135-engine.html

Keep scrolling down , the site lists the 3 AND 4 cylinder engines that were available in a135
And I've just spotted that the 4 cylinders were petrol engines -

jimgoose

Markcheese wrote: »

Keep scrolling down , the site lists the 3 AND 4 cylinder engines that were available in a135

A four-cylinder petrol engine. Only the American models, I'd say.

dieselbug

Markcheese wrote: »

Keep scrolling down , the site lists the 3 AND 4 cylinder engines that were available in a135
And I've just spotted that the 4 cylinders were petrol engines -

Yes 3 and 4 cyl gasoline engines, probably for the American market.

Early 35's (predecessor to the 135) had a Standard engine which was a 4cyl diesel engine, had a reputation for being hard to start from cold.

Later 35's moved to the 3cyl, known as the 35 3cyl and the 35x, also 3cyl then came the 135.

JJJJNR

history repeating itself, anyone who thinks Diesel fuel economy is hyped up compared to petrol needs their head examined, my own car with 200k miles still does 55mpg plus, so there are huge financial benefits to running and keeping a diesel car for most people, in the long term, it also makes sense from a return on investment to run a diesel for as long as possible.

Turbo petrol cars suffer from the same issues as diesels now. You still need to ensure your oil is proper spec, you still need to warm up your engine so not to damage your turbo or turbos, where is the benefit apart from the subjective which being honest I like hearing the engine on tick over, weird that.

We are being fleeced at every point. This will just be another chance to screw joe public for more money, and get people borrowing from the banks.

Every EU country's car fleet has been given tax breaks to go diesel and now that there is conformity, we have to bank roll Europe again through the replacement of cars that don't need replacing,

Falcon L

The UK have already imposed an extra tax on diesel fuel. Petrol is cheaper at the pumps now.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Falcon L wrote: »

The UK have already imposed an extra tax on diesel fuel. Petrol is cheaper at the pumps now.

As it has been for quite some time in the UK.

CiniO

JJJJNR wrote: »

Every EU country's car fleet has been given tax breaks to go diesel and now that there is conformity, we have to bank roll Europe again through the replacement of cars that don't need replacing,

Are you sure?
I thought it was Ireland only where tax incentive to buy diesel is so big that dealers don't even stock petrol cars.
It's greatly different in other countries.
I might be wrong, but I think in majority of EU countries, diesel cars are more expensive to buy and more expensive to tax.

dgt

Full rattly diesel or forget it, refined and diesel don't really go hand in hand. I hate the smell of the modern diesel cars, its rancid

Markcheese

JJJJNR wrote: »

history repeating itself, anyone who thinks Diesel fuel economy is hyped up compared to petrol needs their head examined, my own car with 200k miles still does 55mpg plus, so there are huge financial benefits to running and keeping a diesel car for most people, in the long term, it also makes sense from a return on investment to run a diesel for as long as possible.

Turbo petrol cars suffer from the same issues as diesels now. You still need to ensure your oil is proper spec, you still need to warm up your engine so not to damage your turbo or turbos, where is the benefit apart from the subjective which being honest I like hearing the engine on tick over, weird that.

We are being fleeced at every point. This will just be another chance to screw joe public for more money, and get people borrowing from the banks.

Every EU country's car fleet has been given tax breaks to go diesel and now that there is conformity, we have to bank roll Europe again through the replacement of cars that don't need replacing,

I'd have thought that anyone who has a diesel already will be grand, it'll be the newer diesels that struggle to hit new emission standards that are coming that'll be an issue - maybe someone will come up with a newer-better filter in a few years that'll solve the problem -
Taxes may be standardized on petrol and diesel fair enough- new small Diesel engines may get a lot more expensive so putting customers off buying diesel unless they're clocking up serious miles-
I wonder what'll happen with vans and urban delivery vehicles though ?

galwaytt

....I read somewhere, last year, that M-B commented in a trade journal that they don't think they'll be manufacturing any diesel cars in 10 years time.

dieselbug

The biggest threat to the future of diesel cars may be the actual cost of meeting the new emission limits.

Also the cost of maintaining them.

What will be the cost of the complete exhaust treatment system for a car under euro 6 regulations.

I think manufacturers are near the limit where it is uneconomical to build diesel cars that will be compliant.

http://www.rac.co.uk/community/blog/rac-blog/january-2012/euro-6-and-diesel-vehicles.

galwaytt

dieselbug wrote: »

The biggest threat to the future of diesel cars may be the actual cost of meeting the new emission limits.

Also the cost of maintaining them.

What will be the cost of the complete exhaust treatment system for a car under euro 6 regulations.

I think manufacturers are near the limit where it is uneconomical to build diesel cars that will be compliant.

http://www.rac.co.uk/community/blog/rac-blog/january-2012/euro-6-and-diesel-vehicles.

That's it really, it's the money.

In the truck world, a Euro 6 version of a Euro 5 tractor unit from Scania is €11k more expensive. Doesn't do a single mpg better. Also, they are fitted with extra large capacity fuel tanks (= more weight), as they say the fuel quality in Southern Europe is not up to par. So, they put on bigger tanks so it can go from North-South and back to North again on one fill up.

BorneTobyWilde

Can't remember last time I saw a loud rattly smokey diesel. Modern diesel are very refined.
If the engine is eco friendly then why not run it on eco friendly fuel. The fuel used is the problem not the engine. They should be changing the fuel so that it's more suitable , it is 2015 ! About time the fuel makeup was changed .

Cleveland Hot Pocket

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Can't remember last time I saw a loud rattly smokey diesel. Modern diesel are very refined.
If the engine is eco friendly then why not run it on eco friendly fuel. The fuel used is the problem not the engine. They should be changing the fuel so that it's more suitable , it is 2015 ! About time the fuel makeup was changed .

Plenty of them still on the road.
Passed by one such thing of beauty this morning, a 94 Teeeyoootai Carina, 2.0D , straight diesel, beautiful noise off her, was delighted to see a grand car being kept on the roads.

I'd say that in a couple of years time there will be a price premium on used "nearly new" diesels, as the new models will be a lot more expensive given the cost of meeting these stupid euro regulations.

BorneTobyWilde

And how come diesel cars are in such a low tax bracket if they are bad for the environment ? Are we saying it's all falsified readings that the manufacturer put's out there to sell it's product?

BorneTobyWilde

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Plenty of them still on the road.
Passed by one such thing of beauty this morning, a 94 Teeeyoootai Carina, 2.0D , straight diesel, beautiful noise off her, was delighted to see a grand car being kept on the roads.

I'd say that in a couple of years time there will be a price premium on used "nearly new" diesels, as the new models will be a lot more expensive given the cost of meeting these stupid euro regulations.

That Carina would run on 100% biodiesel. Would make it much cleaner than any new modern pertrol or diesel. I can't get my head around fact that Ireland has no biodiesel. We blend a drop in with diesel. We only contaminate the biodiesel doing that.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

And how come diesel cars are in such a low tax bracket if they are bad for the environment ? Are we saying it's all falsified readings that the manufacturer put's out there to sell it's product?

They are low CO2 emitters, which our tax since 2008 has been based on.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

That Carina would run on 100% biodiesel. Would make it much cleaner than any new modern pertrol or diesel. I can't get my head around fact that Ireland has no biodiesel. We blend a drop in with diesel. We only contaminate the biodiesel doing that.

It'd run on most anything flammable, I had a 95 one there meself for a while.
Recycled veg oil, bio diesel, waste motor oil, whatever else.
A lot greener than buying a new car imo.

CiniO

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

And how come diesel cars are in such a low tax bracket if they are bad for the environment ? Are we saying it's all falsified readings that the manufacturer put's out there to sell it's product?

They emit less CO2 than petrol cars (in general) that's why they are in lower tax brackets.
Supposebly lower CO2 emissions should prevent global warming in longer term.

But fact that diesels emit much more poisonous gases right here and right now, where we live, is ignored by tax regime.

JJJJNR

CiniO wrote: »

Are you sure?
I thought it was Ireland only where tax incentive to buy diesel is so big that dealers don't even stock petrol cars.
It's greatly different in other countries.
I might be wrong, but I think in majority of EU countries, diesel cars are more expensive to buy and more expensive to tax.

I mean at the pump, its basic economies of scale though, or it should be, sell more diesel cars and diesel cars become cheaper to buy, now that diesels have been PR spun to be dirty, the incentive will be to get the masses back over to petrol, when we should have been using petrol in the first instance, esp that this little Island here in the middle of the Atlantic with 4 million people has very little impact on global health.. not saying we should have coal or peat stoves as a main combustion method for vehicles.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

JJJJNR wrote: »

I mean at the pump, its basic economies of scale though, or it should be, sell more diesel cars and diesel cars become cheaper to buy, now that diesels have been PR spun to be dirty, the incentive will be to get the masses back over to petrol, when we should have been using petrol in the first instance, esp that this little Island here in the middle of the Atlantic with 4 million people has very little impact on global health.. not saying we should have coal or peat stoves as a main combustion method for vehicles.

I mean, when they sell a v8 pickup every few minutes in the US, does it really matter what Paddy drives to mass?

hi5

Markcheese wrote: »

I wonder what'll happen with vans and urban delivery vehicles though ?

If your registered for VAT you can claim back the 23% VAT on diesel, you can not do that with an equivalent petrol model.

Ford have just started selling the full size Transit van in the US, 2 petrol's and a diesel model. There is no adjustment for tax so diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol, the diesel van is also more expensive to buy than the petrol, so from an economic point of view alone many are having a hard time justifying the diesel, and then you still have the reliability and environment issues after that.

http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/ford-transit-general-discussion/6921-power-stroke-diesel-any-problems-yet.html

aaronjp

The government are making you think that buying a new car is helping the environment. But it is slowly killing you in traffic. I will stick with the older cars that will pass NCT with low emissions. If the government reduced the price of petrol and reduced road tax there would be more cars on the road that are taxed. In the long run they would make more off taxes on fuel.

Kensington

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/627c6812-7faf-11e4-adff-00144feabdc0.html

It has begun. The great big myth about diesel being more environmentally friendly is finally being exposed. While less of it is burned per kilometre driven (thus creating leas Co2) it emits far more NOx which in essence makes us all very sick. With recent trends towards diesels in Europe it would seem air quality, especially in large cities, has declined rapidly. Now European politicians are beginning to act with widespread bans on diesels likely to be introduced in certain parts of the continent.

Can't say I'm disappointed myself. Diesel MPG figures have been hugely manipulated by the manufacturers for years.Being sold on their cheaper to run and environmental benefits was just a total falacy it would seem. The reality would now appear to be that its actually far less damaging for the environment to burn a little extra petrol to do the same journey. Fingers crossed our government sees the logic, reduces taxation on petrol and doesn't give in to the (many) diesel lobbyists.

I for one will not lament the coming extinction of the diesel in the family car. Like for like sized turbo petrols are still millennia ahead in power delivery, emissions, weight and most of all noise, despite the claimed advancements of the derv over the past few years.

Wouldn't be so sure!
While there is no denying diesel has some serious pollution issues, I'm not sure the new petrol technology is quite the saviour its being claimed to be.

The new "direct injection" petrol engines are hitting all the same problems diesel are for starters.

They are noisy (due to much higher operating pressures, smaller displacement engines working harder and inclusion of turbochargers).

The trend to put in a smaller displacement engine with a big turbocharger to maintain the "grunt" pushes all of the power delivery into the turbocharger operating band (same "lag" and "lumpy power" delivery so many criticise diesels for).

There's even some early reports (TUV Nord) suggesting the petrol direct injection system exhibit similar (and in some cases worse!) emissions to diesel (lower CO2 but significant increases in particulate matter due to the nature of direct fuel injection). We may not see the end of particulate filters and prone-to-sticking EGR valves just because diesel is on the decline!

dr.fuzzenstein

As long as there's buses, trucks, boats, heavy plant, generators, trains, tractors, other farm machinery and so on, I'm not too worried. What will they do with the above? Fit 1 liter Eco Boost engines? Nonsense.
And to the usual posters that bleat "My 2 liter turbo petrol!", do you think the governments won't take an interest in those?
You're next for sky high taxes on fuel and motor tax, bans (how about anything over 1.6 liters in cities), etc.. You really think a golden age for petrol will begin? You are very innocent and blue eyed.
Petrol has no reason to exist, diesel has a million.