Diesel's days are numbered.

selectamatic · 29-09-2015 11:25AM

It is indeed very true that diesel is overrated but the fact remains that it makes economical sense to have a diesel car if you're doing high milage each year, as a result I will continue to use a diesel run around and my conscious will forever be clear as I know whatever I drive in the grand scheme of things will make fook all of an environmental impact. I love petrol cars especially revy small n/a engines but what I dislike is this notion that some people think they are flying the flag for motor enthusiasts just because they daily drive a BMW 325 or alpha v6 well fair play to ye but in all honesty if I did the same it would be economical suicide so please stop lecturing the everyday man about the "harmful" diesels just because your car is a perceived cut above the ordinary, at the end of the day it's still running on dead fish and dinosaur albeit a slightly more refined version but it ain't exactly roses that come out the exhaust pipes either.

VeVeX · 29-09-2015 11:42AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Course, wo wir sind, ist vorn!
But I would argue that we are slightly more environmentally conscious than countries like China and India, who would have built 23 coal powered and 17 nuclear powered stations by the time we decide on what color paper to use for the lunch menu in the cantine at Brussels.
Well, if diesel is dead, i can't wait for those petrol powered airplanes, trucks, tractors, harvesters, buses, trains, ships, diggers, industrial plant, generators and let's not forget:
Houses being heated by diesel and kerosene.
If you're heating your house with that sh*t, there is no cat, no filter and the injection system is crude to say the least. This will push heating costs up just a tiny bit (at least a three fold increase), but you hate diesel, right? If you want to get rid of it, you can't heat your house with heating oil or kerosene.
Diesel cars make up a small percentage of overall use, so to completely eradicate diesel, we would have to get rid of all of the above.
I have written this exact post several times now and strangely enough it gets very, very strenuously ignored every single time by the "diesel is dead" brigade, so I expect the usual deafening silence, followed by someone saying "anyways, dem diesels are terrible, aren't they?"
I will keep this post in a text file and just copy and paste it into this thread from time to time.

Would you be happy if the diesel is dead brigade added a caveat that diesel is dead except in industrial, agricultural and home heating applications ?

dr.fuzzenstein · 29-09-2015 12:28PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Just in case you were thinking it, I'm not a "Diesel is dead" merchant - I'm more of a "Diesel is somewhat overrated and often mis-sold as the Great Automotive White Hope to people who have no business of it" merchant .

I agree with that and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. It has been oversold as the great answer to all our environmental prayers* and many people who have no business buying a diesel were persuaded black and blue to buy one.
There will always be diesel cars, or maybe there will be a brief period where people will buy 2 ton petrol cars with 2 cylinder, 500cc, 6 turbo engines with 180 hp that rev to 27k rpm and get 127 mpg on a test, until for some wondrous reason we all find out this was also a load of horsesh*t, the new engines also spew poison (which is what HAPPENS when you burn fuel) and when you drive with the hammer down, also burn as much fuel as a 1986 1.6 Datsun.
Because, well, you know, you get x amout of energy from fuel and no manner of technical fcukaboutery and whizzbang gizmos on your new spiffing engine created by boffins in white lab coats can ever circumvent that physical law.
Then there will be the next big outcry, think of the children, how can those manufacturers lie to us like that, Something Must Be Done, tearing of hair, wailing, gnashing of teeth, basically the same sham and fake, carefully studied "outrage" we're seeing now.
Then it will be some hybrids, some hydrogen vehicles, some electric and then we will learn about all the unpleasant sh*t that goes into making the batteries, and the whole jumping up and down and stamping of feet starts over again.
Ever get the feeling this planet is populated to a large extend by completely hysterical morons?

*
that would be my next brigade, the "Think of the Children!" brigade

EazyD, why is it a farce**? Have all diesel cars broken? Has it turned out diesel cars are unfit for purpose or has something else changed I am not aware off?
Mine seems to work just fine, I detect no hint of farce on my daily commute. Not even a shade of farce or even fiasko over the last 225k km. I can't recollect ever sitting in it and going "no, this isn't working"

**
maybe instead of farce, it could be "works slightly different than we imagined" A farce would be if we were told to use Duckbilled Platypuses for our daily commute and then found out the dam things are useless.

jimgoose · 29-09-2015 01:00PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

...2 ton petrol cars with 2 cylinder, 500cc, 6 turbo engines with 180 hp that rev to 27k rpm and get 127 mpg on a test, until for some wondrous reason we all find out this was also a load of horsesh*t, the new engines also spew poison (which is what HAPPENS when you burn fuel)...

The NOx situation is exacerbated by high temperature and pressure, which is why modern turbodiesels produce a relatively large amount of it. With the race to turbo the living shít and rev the ballix out of smaller and smaller petrol engines, petrol will of course catch up pretty quickly. The most NOx friendly of the lot is a 500-inch OHV Cadillac V8 running 8.5:1 compression in it's 190BHP incarnation. That or a 1971 3.3l Vauxhall Victor.

EazyD · 29-09-2015 04:35PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I agree with that and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. It has been oversold as the great answer to all our environmental prayers* and many people who have no business buying a diesel were persuaded black and blue to buy one.
There will always be diesel cars, or maybe there will be a brief period where people will buy 2 ton petrol cars with 2 cylinder, 500cc, 6 turbo engines with 180 hp that rev to 27k rpm and get 127 mpg on a test, until for some wondrous reason we all find out this was also a load of horsesh*t, the new engines also spew poison (which is what HAPPENS when you burn fuel) and when you drive with the hammer down, also burn as much fuel as a 1986 1.6 Datsun.
Because, well, you know, you get x amout of energy from fuel and no manner of technical fcukaboutery and whizzbang gizmos on your new spiffing engine created by boffins in white lab coats can ever circumvent that physical law.
Then there will be the next big outcry, think of the children, how can those manufacturers lie to us like that, Something Must Be Done, tearing of hair, wailing, gnashing of teeth, basically the same sham and fake, carefully studied "outrage" we're seeing now.
Then it will be some hybrids, some hydrogen vehicles, some electric and then we will learn about all the unpleasant sh*t that goes into making the batteries, and the whole jumping up and down and stamping of feet starts over again.
Ever get the feeling this planet is populated to a large extend by completely hysterical morons?

*
that would be my next brigade, the "Think of the Children!" brigade

EazyD, why is it a farce**? Have all diesel cars broken? Has it turned out diesel cars are unfit for purpose or has something else changed I am not aware off?
Mine seems to work just fine, I detect no hint of farce on my daily commute. Not even a shade of farce or even fiasko over the last 225k km. I can't recollect ever sitting in it and going "no, this isn't working"

**
maybe instead of farce, it could be "works slightly different than we imagined" A farce would be if we were told to use Duckbilled Platypuses for our daily commute and then found out the dam things are useless.

You see nothing wrong with having up to 80% or more of private ownership made up of diesel vehicles?

dr.fuzzenstein · 29-09-2015 06:38PM

EazyD wrote: »

You see nothing wrong with having up to 80% or more of private ownership made up of diesel vehicles?

So it might shift the other way a little. I still see no evidence of "farce"

joujoujou · 03-10-2015 09:17PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

[...]
Well, if diesel is dead, i can't wait for those petrol powered airplanes, trucks, tractors, harvesters, buses, trains, ships, diggers, industrial plant, generators and let's not forget:
Houses being heated by diesel and kerosene.
[...]

Extremely rarely to see diesel powered airplane, to be honest with you. :pac:

St. Leibowitz · 03-10-2015 09:47PM

joujoujou wrote: »

Extremely rarely to see diesel powered airplane, to be honest with you. :pac:

You're right, there're very few diesel powered piston engined airplanes, but pretty much every turbine (turbofan, turboshaft or turboprop) are powered by JET-A or JET-A1, which is pretty much the same as diesel. That'd be the vast majority of multi engined airplanes, prop or jet, and most helicopters.

joujoujou · 03-10-2015 10:04PM

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

[...] JET-A or JET-A1, which is pretty much the same as diesel. [...]

I wouldn't say so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Comparison_with_other_fuels

Tippjohn · 03-10-2015 10:12PM

Jet fuel is kerosene, you can smell it at every airport. There are piston engined light aircraft but they are not in quantity. Mainly because petrol is more reliable for combustion at low pressure and less prone to cold at altitude. Piston engines can be rebuilt time after time.

joujoujou · 03-10-2015 10:35PM

Kerosene based jet fuel is not the same as what we use as home heating oil, aka kerosene.

Comparing physical and chemical details would lead to same conclusions.

Finally, jet fuel is NOT a diesel and airplanes (with very few exceptions) have no diesel cycle engines.

gctest50 · 03-10-2015 10:49PM

few piston kerosene ones out there clocking up the hours

Altogether, the some 3,500 plus Continental Diesel engines operated in General Aviation have to date successfully completed more than 3.5 million flight hours.

http://www.continentaldiesel.com/typo3/index.php?id=2&L=1

VW turbo daysul in a cessna

joujoujou · 03-10-2015 10:59PM

gctest50 wrote: »

few piston kerosene ones out there clocking up the hours

Very few, I'd say. :P

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3201820/#4

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/584144.html

gctest50 · 03-10-2015 11:10PM

........... and there you'd be - thinking "i've heard that noise somewhere before"

paleoperson · 03-10-2015 11:11PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So it might shift the other way a little. I still see no evidence of "farce"

Everything has to be a "farce" or a "fiasco" with threads like this.

It's tabloid shock-jock outrage turned up to the maximum. People going from story to story, loving to feel as if they have the "insider" view on things. There's nothing half way with this type of person. Nothing could be "below expectations", no because that wouldn't be worth their time complaining about. Nothing could be recent, oh no they knew it all 15 years ago hurr hurr.

All in a desperate attempt to feel as if they know something. As if they're in on some sort of secret, as if they know much better than your average Joe now.

The people who have diesel cars or appliances and who bought them at the time they were saying they were good for your wallet and the environment certainly shouldn't be asked to change.

EazyD · 04-10-2015 12:03AM

paleoperson wrote: »

Everything has to be a "farce" or a "fiasco" with threads like this.

It's tabloid shock-jock outrage turned up to the maximum. People going from story to story, loving to feel as if they have the "insider" view on things. There's nothing half way with this type of person. Nothing could be "below expectations", no because that wouldn't be worth their time complaining about. Nothing could be recent, oh no they knew it all 15 years ago hurr hurr.

All in a desperate attempt to feel as if they know something. As if they're in on some sort of secret, as if they know much better than your average Joe now.

The people who have diesel cars or appliances and who bought them at the time they were saying they were good for your wallet and the environment certainly shouldn't be asked to change.

Supposing that's directed at me. It's called an opinion, much like you have one yourself no doubt. Never claimed insider information so I don't have a notion of what your talking about with regards to that or any desperate attempts to feel anything. Get a grip.

Micky 32 · 04-10-2015 12:34AM

Jet A fuel IS almost like diesel. A lot closer than it is than petrol. Even the fumes smell alike to diesel fumes. . The only difference between heating kerosene and jet A it has more additives to protect the engines...

dr.fuzzenstein · 04-10-2015 12:40AM

paleoperson wrote: »

Everything has to be a "farce" or a "fiasco" with threads like this.

It's tabloid shock-jock outrage turned up to the maximum. People going from story to story, loving to feel as if they have the "insider" view on things. There's nothing half way with this type of person. Nothing could be "below expectations", no because that wouldn't be worth their time complaining about. Nothing could be recent, oh no they knew it all 15 years ago hurr hurr.

All in a desperate attempt to feel as if they know something. As if they're in on some sort of secret, as if they know much better than your average Joe now.

The people who have diesel cars or appliances and who bought them at the time they were saying they were good for your wallet and the environment certainly shouldn't be asked to change.

More a case of desperate wishful thinking.
Diesel isn't going anywhere. I did some calculations on another thread:

Cmax between 2009 and 2015:

km, start 110000 now 435000= 325000
Car, bought for €8k, no worth maybe €3.5, €5000
Insurance, €440p/a= €2520
Tax: can't be arsed looking it up, maybe €600 p/a= €3000
FUEL: estimating 1.4 middling per liter and around 6l/100 km= 19500 liters= €27300
Servicing:
Cheap hoor on tires, €500 a year=€3000, 16.25 oil changes (performed by yours truly), €812.5 in total, one emergency fuel line problem+timing belt=€600, clutch €600, shocks €300, springs €100, brake parts €150, add misc like lights and other fiddly crap €200=
€5762.5 **

Grand Total:
€43582

Servicing may be out, but not by much.
If you calculate total costs vs kilometers driven, it works out at 13 cent per kilometer. I had to calculate that a few times to believe it myself.
The question was to find me a car comparable in size to the Cmax that costs the same to run at 60k km per year and outside a Smart (no room for the dogs) there is NO petrol that could do the job at that cost. If someone does find me a similar sized petrol car that isn't a complete dog and cheaper to run, I'm always open to suggestions.
So diesel working out very well for me.

Micky 32 wrote: »

Jet A fuel IS almost like diesel. A lot closer than it is than petrol. Even the fumes smell alike to diesel fumes. . The only difference between heating kerosene and jet A it has more additives to protect the engines...

And you can stick kero into a diesel, it will quite happily run on it, so pretty darn close. It may be a tad cleaner...

joujoujou · 04-10-2015 07:11AM

Is kero a diesel? NO.

Are planes diesel powered? NO.

But obviously diesel fanbois are always right.

Tippjohn · 04-10-2015 08:56AM

A Plane is a woodworking tool, certainly not powered by diesel. As a pilot of course I don't know what goes into aeroplanes. All fuels have addatives to suit their use. I am afraid that Jet fuel is a type of diesel whether anyone likes it or not. Just like Beer is a generic term for many types of beer.

jimgoose · 04-10-2015 09:49AM

joujoujou wrote: »

Is kero a diesel? NO.

Are planes diesel powered? NO.

But obviously diesel fanbois are always right.

Jet-A is very like DERV, and will run most diesel engines, for a while at least. The problems with it, aside from completely different pollution requirements, are lubricity and cetane rating, neither of which are that important for gas-turbine fuels. Jet-B is cold-weather fuel, and has a lot of petrol in it.

dr.fuzzenstein · 04-10-2015 10:28AM

I find it amusing that some people actively hate the fact that diesel vehicles exist, like its a personal insult to them.
At my mileage petrol is out of the question, but if someone is sufficiently outraged that I don't drive a vehicle personally approved of by them, maybe they want to fund the purchase and difference in running cost of a BMW 525i Estate?
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/bmw-5-series-2-5-litre-petrol/10430311
This one looks nice.

Tippjohn · 04-10-2015 10:41AM

Elephants look nice but you would not want one in the garden :-)

EazyD · 04-10-2015 11:32AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I find it amusing that some people actively hate the fact that diesel vehicles exist, like its a personal insult to them.
At my mileage petrol is out of the question, but if someone is sufficiently outraged that I don't drive a vehicle personally approved of by them, maybe they want to fund the purchase and difference in running cost of a BMW 525i Estate?
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/bmw-5-series-2-5-litre-petrol/10430311
This one looks nice.

I think your taking it wrong Fuzz tbh, I have no hatred for diesels, 2 people in my family drive them. I just think the current situation where every Mary and Tom owns one is a silly considering a large number of owners do comparatively small mileage.

Stereomaniac · 04-10-2015 11:41AM

But are people not entitled to own whatever sort of car that they want, like what sort of a problem could I possibly have whether someone has a petrol or a diesel car? It's fairly unimaginable.

Tippjohn · 04-10-2015 11:46AM

The main problem I see is that the government has chosen to penalise the drivers of petrol cars for no other reason than to charge extortionate car tax, both VED and VRT. All under the disguise of the environment.

Markcheese · 04-10-2015 12:17PM

Tippjohn wrote: »

The main problem I see is that the government has chosen to penalise the drivers of petrol cars for no other reason than to charge extortionate car tax, both VED and VRT. All under the disguise of the environment.

But government policy doesn't have to be a fixed unchanging thing- yup almost everyone has gone diesel ,and they do use less fuel - and are a good idea if you do the milage (and people are routinely doing a lot more miles) .
So if society (or government) are now more concerned about Nox and particulate than Co2 then they can change the registration and road tax/fuel tax incentives to suit- Shur diesel was on the way out anyway -a lot of manufacturers weren't planning a next generation of small diesels - maybe we should in incentivize LPG instead- electric is next but can't see that working for very high mileage and light commercials-

dr.fuzzenstein · 04-10-2015 12:35PM

EazyD wrote: »

I think your taking it wrong Fuzz tbh, I have no hatred for diesels, 2 people in my family drive them. I just think the current situation where every Mary and Tom owns one is a silly considering a large number of owners do comparatively small mileage.

That's for sure and I don't disagree.
But even looking at post #1, the Op wants me to drive a turbo petrol of the same size. Riiiiight, I'll buy a 1.8 turbo petrol to do my 60k a year in.
Then Mr LTL goes on to say I should drive a 2 liter twin turbo petrol. I now need to seek medical help, because my sides have split from laughing.
There follows a slew of posts along the lines of "rabble rabble, ban diesels, sounds terrible, Oi loikes me petril, so you should drive one, I cycle (so what)"
Plenty of hatred for diesel on this thread and if you look you will find posts that state "I don't like diesels and people should drive petrol", right from the start.

So, Mr Long Time Lurker (or anyone else who "doesn't like" that I drive a diesel), if you are personally offended that I drive a dirty, clattery, old, fume belching, cancer causing 1.8 diesel Focus you may buy me that BMW and please deposit around €11k in my bank account to cover the extra fuel costs for the next 5 years.
Oh no wait, that doesn't cover extra tax, insurance and maintenance costs!
Anyone? Thought not. So I'm afraid the old oilburner will wake up in a cloud of smoke again tomorrow morning as it begins it's daily 120 km (all in) commute. Unless I have to deviate to go to the shops, then it may be a few km more. And the GF borrows it in the evenings to do some stuff, because it's cheaper on juice than her MX5. (1.6 petrol)

Unless someone can find a way that I can do it cheaper in a 2 liter, twin-turbo petrol, :rolleyes: based on my figures, similar size, 5 year running time, same mileage and I don't have any capital to spend so will have to be bought for the selling price of the CMax.

Long Time Lurker · 30-10-2015 05:57AM

An interesting read ..

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/james-nix-volkwagen-crisis-provides-pretext-for-overdue-rise-in-tax-on-diesel-1.2410418

Grueller · 30-10-2015 07:05AM

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

An interesting read ..

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/james-nix-volkwagen-crisis-provides-pretext-for-overdue-rise-in-tax-on-diesel-1.2410418

Interesting but flawed. Price of goods at the till will be effected too much. Heavy haulage and even light commercials all run on diesel.

Diesel's days are numbered.

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