Diesel's days are numbered.

gctest50

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Absolutely. Their entire policy is tax and ban and as an alternative have us all drive milk floats.

A Tesla ain't no milk float though - give it a few years

Long Time Lurker

Diesel has no place in a car that constantly does short journeys in a city. That's a given. Is petrol any better? Not the point of the thread and I wonder why people keep going back to it as a point of discussion here. The point of this thread is to show how wrong the idea of giving tax breaks to diesel is.

Saying "well I'm not getting outta my diesel because of petrol lovers seeking the death of derv" is also a non argumemrt. The idea that arguing against petrol in an economic sense is just ignorant. Taxation can make a petrol viable in an instance. The argument is diesel ecological benefits data is flawed.

dr.fuzzenstein

The problem with that is that governments never give tax cuts to incentvise something, they will just hike tax on something else to make that the worse choice.
So in future we could have petrol at its current cost. No who am I kidding. Because you are a filthy polluter and you drive a petrol, your co2 based tax has just gone up and here's another 'environmental' levy on your fuel. And (if you get your wish) diesel will become uneconomical for anyone but the highest highest mileage business commuter.
So a lot of people will be faced with giving up work, because it won't be feasible to commute. I know that usually gets a cheer and round of applause from the 'fcuk you countryboy!' brigade, but that is another matter.
The government will never make petrols any cheaper to run.

Lellostag

I suppose though that is a little ironic that we now can have "clean" diesel cars in our cities through the magic of the DPF, ie minimize particulate pollution in urban areas but somehow it is ok to puke out all that crap in the rural areas along our motorways and national roads. Who on earth ever thought that was an acceptable solution?!

I also don't get this whole obsession with CO2 emissions when so much of the rest of the world emphasises the evils of NOx. Would it not have made more sense for the EU to follow suit with that as well, or is just down to what easentially is easier for manufacturers to do something about..?

gctest50

They'd be under pressure from the Euro car manufacturers


more active in other countries about it all instead of sitting back and waiting :

Japan had a retrofit program from 2000

Diesel emission control regulation (retrofit program)

Certain categories of in-use diesel vehicles had to be retrofitted with emission control systems to reduce PM emissions.

Vehicles failing this requirement were to be banned from travel in the Tokyo Metropolitan Government area.

A vehicle originally certified to the 1989 emission standards and first registered in 1993 was prohibited from use in Tokyo starting in October 2003. The vehicle could be used beyond October 2003 if retrofitted with approved Category 1 PM control device

might find a few bits here :

http://www.meca.org/galleries/files/MECA_diesel_retrofit_white_paper_1009.pdf



.

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

A Tesla ain't no milk float though - give it a few years

Give it a few years, are you serious ? the Model S in 2015 outsold all the German Luxury brands in the U.S.A, now that's saying something for a very young car company who make electrics only !!!

Tesla are making a laughing stock of the German car makers with their out dated high polluting Diesel Shi*e

To tell you how bad E.U emissions regulations are, they allow about 40 times higher Nox emissions than in the U.S.

Euro car makers are very powerful and have always managed to convince regulators to allow for higher emissions by whinging about not being able to meet emissions and Regulators always back down and there is absolutely no sign of this changing.

The VW emissions scandal isn't going to change regulation in the E.U soon, sure they want to introduce a real life test but they will then only increase the limits so nothing will change. Pure corruption !

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Absolutely. Their entire policy is tax and ban and as an alternative have us all drive milk floats.

hang on there now, I drive a Leaf and it's a pretty good car, 31,500 Kms since Jan 2015.

Hardly a milk float. I'd rather have the leaf any day than some sh*T box Golf rattle box TDI.

dr.fuzzenstein

[Deleted User] wrote: »

hang on there now, I drive a Leaf and it's a pretty good car, 31,500 Kms since Jan 2015.

Hardly a milk float. I'd rather have the leaf any day than some sh*T box Golf rattle box TDI.

Good for you, pat on the head.
If it makes you feel any better I drive a Ford Rattlebox.
No doubt we will drive electric, but right now the commute and no cash reserves mean I have to hold on to it for a while.
The fact you advocate EV means what I've been saying all along. ICE is dead, not just diesel.

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Good for you, pat on the head.
If it makes you feel any better I drive a Ford Rattlebox.
No doubt we will drive electric, but right now the commute and no cash reserves mean I have to hold on to it for a while.
The fact you advocate EV means what I've been saying all along. ICE is dead, not just diesel.

I never said EV is perfect, but they are far better than the Milk Float you refer to.

dr.fuzzenstein

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I never said EV is perfect, but they are far better than the Milk Float you refer to.

It will be a while before I make the jump. Its more of a financial thing right now. I would normally drive cars a few years old and won't spend more than 5k on them. Not all of us want to go out and hand over several tens of thousands of euromoney purely for the pleasure of owning a brand spanking new car.
And I don't eben mind EVs. I do mind people who say "ah yeah, diesel is fcuked" and will go on about how great petrol is without a hint of irony. Petrol is not far behind.

Ogogo

Just speaking as one consumer, but I am getting a new car during the week and its a petrol. Its my first petrol car in more than 20 years - I was swayed by 2 factors, 1 the apparent complexity of modern diesels dpf's etc and 2 the additional upfront cost of the car. That said I do very small mileage and apparently the nature of the short drives I do isn't ideally suited to many of the modern diesels, if I did bigger mileage the calculus might be different.

In any case, I feel the next car I get will likely be an EV, I was tempted this time but decided to wait a couple of years more until the range is slightly better.

visual

Hold off if we are talking green. electric car production is the most environment unfriendly with highest carbon footprint so much so between manufacturer and disposal it's worse than buying and running either petrol or diesel and scraping it.

It cheap electricity that owners buy them for and pretend they are less polluting because everything else has been ignored.

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It will be a while before I make the jump. Its more of a financial thing right now. I would normally drive cars a few years old and won't spend more than 5k on them. Not all of us want to go out and hand over several tens of thousands of euromoney purely for the pleasure of owning a brand spanking new car.
And I don't eben mind EVs. I do mind people who say "ah yeah, diesel is fcuked" and will go on about how great petrol is without a hint of irony. Petrol is not far behind.

Hey I meant no offence !

I never said diesel is *****d but I do strongly feel the Greens/FF in Ireland made a big mistake promoting Diesel as some kind of planet saving technology.

Backward corrupt E.U legislators will no doubt continue to support the E.U car industry for many more years meaning there is no end in sight to diesel in the E.U.

Sadly , no, it will be a while before electrics come down to about 5 K in price.

I chose the EV route because the Prius was getting on with over 200,000 Kms and I wanted a change after 4 years. Going back to diesel was never going to be an option after driving the Prius. I'd have a Prius any day over most Diesels, they can be got cheap enough 2nd hand and are a great reliable car.

visual

visual wrote: »

Hold off if we are talking green. electric car production is the most environment unfriendly with highest carbon footprint so much so between manufacturer and disposal it's worse than buying and running either petrol or diesel and scraping it.

It cheap electricity that owners buy them for and pretend they are less polluting because everything else has been ignored.

No wrong, this has been well debunked.

And not only this but think about where petrol and diesel comes from ?

First oil wells have to be discovered, costing energy, then extraction, costing huge amounts of energy, then transport to the refinery, huge amounts of energy.

Then the refinery consumes a huge amount of energy to refine petrol / diesel etc,then it has to be transported to the petrol stations.

It's then burned in petrol and diesel cars at 20-30% efficiency ! This wasted energy from the oil well to refinery can be used instead to charge EV batteries.

EV Car batteries can live on after 10-15 years in the Ev to provide storage for renewable energy.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

To tell you how bad E.U emissions regulations are, they allow about 40 times higher Nox emissions than in the U.S.

Sounds rather impossible... Source if you don't mind...

Because I can see that Euro6 allows 0.08g/km of NOx, cannot find definite answer to EPA regulations - but from what I've seen Tier 2 it bottoms at 0.1g/km... Tier 3 will be phased in starting from 2017, and ranges from 0.16 to 0g/km of NOx+NMOG. I don't see 40x difference...

grogi

grogi wrote: »

Sounds rather impossible... Source if you don't mind...

Because I can see that Euro6 allows 0.08g/km of NOx, cannot find definite answer to EPA regulations - but from what I've seen Tier 2 it bottoms at 0.1g/km... Tier 3 will be phased in starting from 2017, and ranges from 0.16 to 0g/km of NOx+NMOG. I don't see 40x difference...

You want evidence ?

Look at what VW have to do in the U.S, that is buy back all the diesels and in the E.U they get away with modification to the air intake, costing a few cent for feck sake. What more evidence do you want ?

Instead of VW having to pay Billions in fines they will now get off buy being forced to make electric cars, most likely only for the U.S and they'll continue to off load their diesel S**t in the E.U !

U.S regulations emissions regulations are far higher than in the E.U.

This will tell you how corrupt the E.U really is.

For all diesel fans here on Boards, you'll be thrilled by this. But it's bad news for E.U citizens.

Quote:
Carmakers have won delays to a more stringent “real driving emissions” test, which will allow them to belch out more than twice the legal limit of deadly nitrogen oxides (NOx) from 2019 and up to 50% more from 2021.
End Quote.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/28/eu-emissions-limits-nox-car-manufacturers

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

You want evidence ?

Look at what VW have to do in the U.S, that is buy back all the diesels and in the E.U they get away with modification to the air intake, costing a few cent for feck sake. What more evidence do you want ?

Instead of VW having to pay Billions in fines they will now get off buy being forced to make electric cars, most likely only for the U.S and they'll continue to off load their diesel S**t in the E.U !

U.S regulations emissions regulations are far higher than in the E.U.

This will tell you how corrupt the E.U really is.

For all diesel fans here on Boards, you'll be thrilled by this. But it's bad news for E.U citizens.

Quote:
Carmakers have won delays to a more stringent “real driving emissions” test, which will allow them to belch out more than twice the legal limit of deadly nitrogen oxides (NOx) from 2019 and up to 50% more from 2021.
End Quote.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/28/eu-emissions-limits-nox-car-manufacturers

Personally I am not touching anything VW related with a stick. I am not going to give a company Ok to cheat on emissions. The same story goes to dodgy DSG transmissions. Everywhere in the world VW is put under the wall for them, in Europe same old, same old...

I also read here they are very... innovative when it comes to honoring warranty...

That company should be made bankrupt and execs put in jail. Instead we see the soft approach from European regulators... That is a disgrace...

Still don't see the 40 times figure you mentioned. Emissions regulations are there, and they are very strict. Fact, that they are not enforced - it a very bad cert for the governments...

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

U.S regulations emissions regulations are far higher than in the E.U.

+1

If I remember right, the first emissions regulations in the EU in 1993 (EURO 1) were similar to the ones implemented in the US in 1983 (and in California in 1979 - there were already emissions standards there in the 60s)

Says it all really...

The cars emitted 40 times the allowed limit of Nox in the U.S, meaning VW have to buy these cars back.

In the E.U they don't have to buy the cars back because the regulations are far less strict so the breach was minuscule so they get away with a cheap meaningless "fix" done in 5 mins.

So maybe the limits are not 40 times higher here the problem is the testing is a joke and designed for the car companies and not air quality or the health of E.U citizens.

Diesel lovers should be happy it's here to stay in the E.U at least.

I just really wonder how long people will bury their heads in the sand and continue to buy these vehicles ?

If E.U car makers want to make ICE cars then why the obsession with Diesel ? seriously, it's a joke.

Surely if they just make petrols it would solve a lot of problems ? there is no need for diesels.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

The cars emitted 40 times the allowed limit of Nox in the U.S, meaning VW have to buy these cars back.

In the E.U they don't have to buy the cars back because the regulations are far less strict so the breach was minuscule so they get away with a cheap meaningless "fix" done in 5 mins.

So maybe the limits are not 40 times higher here the problem is the testing is a joke and designed for the car companies and not air quality or the health of E.U citizens.

VW does not need to buy those cars back is because Mrs Merkel does not allow... Norms are very similar as I quoted before...

US Administration does what they are created for - European does not...

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

If E.U car makers want to make ICE cars then why the obsession with Diesel ? seriously, it's a joke.

Surely if they just make petrols it would solve a lot of problems ? there is no need for diesels.

Typically they make both... It is just in Ireland that Petrols are not imported.

shietpilot

Déjà vu lads. Triple post from Mad_Lad with the exact same information I read months ago. *yawn*

R.O.R

shietpilot wrote: »

Déjà vu lads. Triple post from Mad_Lad with the exact same information I read months ago. *yawn*

Too much time on his hands, as evidenced by being able to hang around in charging stations on a daily basis.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I just really wonder how long people will bury their heads in the sand and continue to buy these vehicles ?

The annual mileage of some people is so high that, given the present costs of motor tax and fuel, the only option that makes any financial sense is diesel...

grogi

grogi wrote: »

Typically they make both... It is just in Ireland that Petrols are not imported.

Yes I know they make petrol, let me rephrase,

They should not make diesel and make petrol only. As well as EV of course.

R.O.R

R.O.R wrote: »

Too much time on his hands, as evidenced by being able to hang around in charging stations on a daily basis.

Who hangs around at charging stations daily ? I certainly don't.