Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

end of the road · 23-10-2015 1:14pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The alternative is that the whole public service should be subjected to mandatory bargaining procedure and prevented by law from striking.

that would be to dangerous to allow. workers must have that ultimate threat.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 1:14pm

GM228 wrote: »

What that chart dosn't take into account is the hours worked to gain that money-the average European driver works 12 hours less per week and are actually on a higher hourly rate and therefore making more money.

GM228

I think given the fact I actually went to the trouble of posting figures, you could at the very least provide a link to back that up no ????

end of the road wrote: »

that would be to dangerous to allow. workers must have that ultimate threat.

again showing your lack of knowledge of anything of relevance in this thread. It is already in place for Garda and the Defence Forces hence the whole "blue flu" and not a strike

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 1:15pm

lxflyer wrote: »

What utter nonsense.

Of course it should operate as a company - as should every other semi-state.

They should operate in the most cost effective and efficient manner possible. When outside revenue and passenger numbers nose dive then costs need to be cut rapidly. Are you seriously suggesting that they should not be cost effective and efficient?

Otherwise you just end up with bottomless pits with taxpayer's money being squandered.

No, Irish Rail should never operate financially as a company - because it is too important/critical a service, to ever be able to function properly that way - it should only ever be viewed financially, as an arm of government.

You're using the semi-state technicality, to try and pretend it should run like a business - everyone should consider Irish Rail a branch of government, and expect it to be run financially, as a part of government.

If people accept anything less than that, they will never have quality public rail transport.

Here you go with the 'bottomless pit' hyperbole again - that's just a nonsense soundbite, which doesn't really mean anything at all (it's just a cheap way for you to try and claim there is waste, without backing that up with anything - a bollocks claim which can just be discarded offhand).

For a public transport service that is effectively an arm of government, efficiency means providing social benefit, not prioritizing balanced economics - efficiency with this service, inherently means guaranteeing unbalanced economics - which only government can possibly fund.

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 1:15pm

end of the road wrote: »

that would be to dangerous to allow. workers must have that ultimate threat.

and the ultimate sanction , there cannot be reward without risk, workers must balance their need for pay ( increases ) against the business need to make money and stay in business, remove one side and you must remove the other.

end of the road · 23-10-2015 1:16pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

See my post above with actual facts and figures in comparison to your opinion.

I'm still waiting on even a basic answer to the questions I posed to you earlier or an admission you cannot answer them (which I know is closer to the truth)

you only gave soundbites. the drivers aren't greedy. no amount of saying they are makes it true

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I think given the fact I actually went to the trouble of posting figures, you could at the very least provide a link to back that up no ????

again showing your lack of knowledge of anything of relevance in this thread. It is already in place for Garda and the Defence Forces hence the whole "blue flu" and not a strike

which means stopping them from striking is pointless and doomed to fail. the threat must be there to strike when all other options have failed

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 1:18pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

OK lets go for specifics then shall we. An Irish Rail driver earns approx. €52,000 - €55,000 a year (open to correction) or to make it comparable with the chart below €4,230 a month, which by my eyes and the data below in the chart makes them amongst the highest paid in Europe and makes them greedy as hell who should be thankful of their position of being amongst / if not the highest paid drivers in Europe

More like long overdue a serious paycut to give them a good hard dose of reality

Who are you to decide what they should be paid? Should we pay doctors a pittance just because their wages are generally so high?

Fúck that - in both cases, they are responsible for the lives of a great number of people - you don't pay the drivers of a rail service a pittance, when they carry that responsibility.

There is no 'greed' in what these people are paid, just jealousy/begrudgery from the likes of yourself and others, at them having good pay and being willing and capable of defending that - while the rest of the country allowed themselves to be shafted.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 1:19pm

end of the road wrote: »

you only gave soundbites. the drivers aren't greedy. no amount of saying they are makes it true

I gave specifics you are the one giving soundbites and looking more ridiculous as each post goes on.

Again I'll ask you for proof of your claim that Irish Rail drivers are of a higher standard than other EU drivers

Until you can even address that simple question , your posts are just nothing more than generalised nonsense and is doing "our boys" no good

LXFlyer · 23-10-2015 1:22pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

No, Irish Rail should never operate financially as a company - because it is too important/critical a service, to ever be able to function properly that way - it should only ever be viewed financially, as an arm of government.

You're using the semi-state technicality, to try and pretend it should run like a business - everyone should consider Irish Rail a branch of government, and expect it to be run financially, as a part of government.

If people accept anything less than that, they will never have quality public rail transport.

Here you go with the 'bottomless pit' hyperbole again - that's just a nonsense soundbite, which doesn't really mean anything at all (it's just a cheap way for you to try and claim there is waste, without backing that up with anything - a bollocks claim which can just be discarded offhand).

For a public transport service that is effectively an arm of government, efficiency means providing social benefit, not prioritizing balanced economics - efficiency with this service, inherently means guaranteeing unbalanced economics - which only government can possibly fund.

So you don't believe that Irish Rail should be operated in the most cost effective and efficient manner possible?

Or that if passenger numbers drop sharply (with a consequent drop in revenue) that costs should not be cut in a similar manner?

Hilly Bill · 23-10-2015 1:23pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I'm afraid not, you stated 'it still doesn't count towards their weekly salary now does it? plus its not a gimmie that you can get on a bus for free.''

Anyone in the private sector has to pay for public transport passes, the ability to use any form of public transport for free is a non - cash item of remuneration.

Again as in my previous posts your ignorance to the way things work is not a valid rebuttal.

I think you need to google non - cash items and remuneration. Revenues website is fairly good, lots of reading materials on the matter.

You missed the part where staff don't get free travel passes for the busses.

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 1:24pm

BoatMad wrote: »

its an inherent part of the public sector mentality brought on the particular and some might say peculiar situations that has arise in monopoly state sector businesses Its not a reflection on the drivers individually , its a reflection in human nature

inflation has been extremely low in recent years , so thats not having much effect , certain costs have risen, but then so have these for all workers . none of that gives a monopolistic job proected workers group the right too exploit the system

by all means agitate to raise jones income, I accept that right , however it must be balanced by the right of the other side to make you redundant to save costs and hire anyone of a different salary scale.

The alternative is that the whole public service should be subjected to mandatory bargaining procedure and prevented by law from striking.

You don't speak for these rail drivers mentality - and it is extremely arrogant to try and make claims about the mentality of a whole group of workers.

When anyone makes a claim to 'human nature' in one way or another, that can usually be dismissed as handwavy speculation - lets see some psychological studies, or other kinds of evidence, to prove these claims about 'human nature'?

It's a bit like the term 'common sense' in how meaningless and subjective it is.

Inflation has been compounding over most of a decade now - year on year it adds up - these workers are well overdue a pay rise.

What proof is there of anyone 'exploiting' the system? Striking in response to lies/dishonesty from your employer, who are not holding up their end of a bargain, is not 'exploitation'.

The real exploitation here, is of the workers who are being continually screwed over again and again.

The idea of creating laws against striking, is extremely authoritarian, and is something that should bring the entire country to a standstill in a general strike - unless people are happy to throw away their rights, and give their employers enormously increased power over them.

The right to strike is very hard-earned one, and should never be thrown away lightly.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 1:25pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Fúck that - in both cases, they are responsible for the lives of a great number of people - you don't pay the drivers of a rail service a pittance, when they carry that responsibility.

Oh dear god don't go down that argument of being responsible for lives and especially comparing train drivers to doctors of all things (which requires an 8 year education and more afterwards). Hell I'm responsible for lives every day just driving to work and not hitting anyone.

I get your username your obviously quite the socialist but we are not all equal in jobs

KomradeBishop wrote: »

There is no 'greed' in what these people are paid, just jealousy/begrudgery from the likes of yourself and others, at them having good pay and being willing and capable of defending that - while the rest of the country allowed themselves to be shafted.

I'm not jealous in the slightest, I paid €40 to get a taxi this morning and was no skin off my nose (in fact was a lot comfier than the usual cattle train). Just to show how clearly off the mark you are my salary is €375 a day or just short of €7,500 a month before tax so I've nothing to be jealous off from train drivers.

But please continue if it helps you try and justify your point :rolleyes: Meanwhile I'll refer you back to the chart I posted which shows quite clearly they are the highest paid in Europe and being greedy.

So I'll ask you what have you got to counter actual facts and figures other than claiming pithy jealously

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 1:26pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree, but that does not mean a state employee should simply get a pay rise. Most are well paid for what they do, we have some of most highest paid civil servants , teachers, policemen, rail works etc etc in the EU. this is because time and again, monies earmarked for service expansion and development are in effect siphoned off into increased salaries , health being a particular case

We also have one of the highest costs of living in all of Europe - so of course people are going to be paid more - as they should be.

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 1:28pm

BoatMad wrote: »

and the ultimate sanction , there cannot be reward without risk, workers must balance their need for pay ( increases ) against the business need to make money and stay in business, remove one side and you must remove the other.

Again, we are not talking about a company here (in anything other than a technical sense), we are talking about what is effectively an arm of government, where services are inherently supposed to run at a loss in order to provide social benefit.

Plus, when you outlaw striking, you completely tip the balance in favour of employers.

Employers throughout the economy, already have the balance enormously tipped in their favour - high unemployment levels for starters, give all employers huge power over employees - and this is being used to withhold pay increases, even for corporations with significant profits.

CosmicJay · 23-10-2015 1:29pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

The only logic you've provided, to try and portray these people as 'greedy' or overpaid, is that they haven't let themselves be fúcked over to the same extent that the rest of society allowed themselves to be shafted work-wise.

That's not 'greed', that's just begrudgery on the part of the accusers.

Public spending, by definition, helps boost the economy - and properly functioning public transport helps aid the economy as well.

You haven't established at all, that these drivers are overpaid, that they are greedy, or that they don't deserve a pay rise.

How many years of inflation have we had now, eating away at their wages, before their last raise? They are long overdue a rise in pay.

Public spending on infrastructure typically helps the economy as they money typically tends to filter through all levels of the economy, giving it to an overpaid train driver does not boost the economy, unless its the train drivers economy.

Inflation has increased for everybody, that point is fairly moot.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

What proof do you have that there are 'too many people' on the government payroll? Sounds like just an uninformed opinion, based on a soundbite, more than anything else.

Again, you just appear to me, as among a class of posters who will never be happy with the current number of people on the government payroll - who will advocate 'cuts cuts cuts!' until services disappear or are privatized.

You're just spouting hyperbole here about 'unsustainable' public spending bills - while at the same time arguing for decreased taxes :rolleyes: - and yes, governments historically almost always run deficits, that's what governments are for, as it's typically the only way to fund many services.

Running a balanced budget or a surplus, is actually an extremely unusual thing for governments to do, and is the exception rather than the rule. Governments do no run like businesses, government finances are not like business or personal finances.

The problem with our government right now, is that it is not spending even nearly enough - mostly thanks to EU politics.

Thank you for pointing out your understanding of Public Finances, yes typically governments run deficits, but if you look at the US under Clinton he ran several years of surplus to pay down the national debt, Ireland had even ran a surplus for many years up until 2006 to a point where our debt to gdp was only 26%.

A government HAS to periodically run a surplus budget, yes you can argue that they use inflation to whittle away the principal until its immaterial and the only real cost if the servicing payments. If a government keeps borrowing it'll find itself ending up like Greece or Argentina, no money, tons of debt with people unwilling to lend to them.

end of the road · 23-10-2015 1:32pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Oh dear god don't go down that argument of being responsible for lives and especially comparing train drivers to doctors of all things (which requires an 8 year education and more afterwards). Hell I'm responsible for lives every day just driving to work and not hitting anyone.

I get your username your obviously quite the socialist but we are not all equal in jobs

I'm not jealous in the slightest, I paid €40 to get a taxi this morning and was no skin off my nose (in fact was a lot comfier than the usual cattle train). Just to show how clearly off the mark you are my salary is €375 a day or just short of €7,500 a month before tax so I've nothing to be jealous off from train drivers.

But please continue if it helps you try and justify your point Meanwhile I'll refer you back to the chart I posted which shows quite clearly they are the highest paid in Europe and being greedy.

So I'll ask you what have you got to counter actual facts and figures other than claiming pithy jealously

one minute they were one of the highist paid in europe, now they are the highist, make up your mind. they aren't greedy and are responsible for hundreds of lives upon their trains. one wrong move could lead to large scale injuries and worse.

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 1:33pm

lxflyer wrote: »

So you don't believe that Irish Rail should be operated in the most cost effective and efficient manner possible?

Or that if passenger numbers drop sharply (with a consequent drop in revenue) that costs should not be cut in a similar manner?

I argue that Irish Rail should operate in a way that maximizes social benefit - while at the same time minimizing spending that is not necessary, in order to provide that social benefit - that is the goal, that is what the funding needs to be formed around (and it will require running at a significant loss).

You are just trying to define 'cost effective' as 'anything which argues in favour of cuts or of maintaining current cuts'.

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 1:33pm

actually it is you who are engaging in " hand waving "

If a group of people find themselves in a position of power. then there is always the temptation to exercise it

If there is no balance to the exercise of that power, then the temptation will become overwhelming

if you ever had to supply solutions in to the public service, you would see the complex industrial relations that exists at first hand. the " power " struggles between those that have job security and hence can strike with relative impunity and those charged with running the situation , i.e. overall delivery of the service.

All rights are typically circumscribed, its a balance of competing " rights"

What proof is there of anyone 'exploiting' the system? Striking in response to lies/dishonesty from your employer, who are not holding up their end of a bargain, is not 'exploitation'.

I see no point in entering into this debate at that level, I cannot tell the truth of the matter from the various media pronouncements , nor I suspect can you .

but I have enough first hand experience of the power play that goes on in the public service (in general ) to see that " victim-hood" is ingrained in all sides of the debate

one must be " aggrieved " to justify action, so the first stage is to lay the appropriate grounds for being " oppressed", thats just basic "striking-101", other wise you'd just look like a naked opportunist and that wouldn't do at all.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 1:33pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

We also have one of the highest costs of living in all of Europe - so of course people are going to be paid more - as they should be.

Ah good a tangible argument. So can you explain why Switzerland which is the country with the EU's highest consumer price index of 124.51 is paid less than Irish Rail drivers who live in a country that is 14th on the table and has a consumer price index of 79.71.

Your argument is mute and wrong

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 1:35pm

end of the road wrote: »

one minute they were one of the highist paid in europe, now they are the highist, make up your mind. they aren't greedy and are responsible for hundreds of lives upon their trains. one wrong move could lead to large scale injuries and worse.

To answer your question just refer back to the chart I posted, you know the one with actual facts and figures (that thing you seem incapable of doing because your posts are irrelevant generalised tripe opinions and you still lack the basic ability to answer a question but yet seem to think your posts add something to the discussion)

Also, please don't echo that sentiment. Everyone is responsible for the lives of hundreds of others throughout the course of their day.

If that is the best argument you are going to offer for them getting a pay rise then good luck

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 1:35pm

end of the road wrote: »

one minute they were one of the highist paid in europe, now they are the highist, make up your mind. they aren't greedy and are responsible for hundreds of lives upon their trains. one wrong move could lead to large scale injuries and worse.

I see, low paid people, are inherently more irresponsible !!!!! and being paid lots makes you more responsible ( hmm, let me see, bankers.....)

Richard tea · 23-10-2015 1:37pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Oh dear god don't go down that argument of being responsible for lives and especially comparing train drivers to doctors of all things (which requires an 8 year education and more afterwards). Hell I'm responsible for lives every day just driving to work and not hitting anyone.

I get your username your obviously quite the socialist but we are not all equal in jobs

I'm not jealous in the slightest, I paid €40 to get a taxi this morning and was no skin off my nose (in fact was a lot comfier than the usual cattle train). Just to show how clearly off the mark you are my salary is €375 a day or just short of €7,500 a month before tax so I've nothing to be jealous off from train drivers.

But please continue if it helps you try and justify your point :rolleyes: Meanwhile I'll refer you back to the chart I posted which shows quite clearly they are the highest paid in Europe and being greedy.

So I'll ask you what have you got to counter actual facts and figures other than claiming pithy jealously

You seem to know it all. The average user here wouldn't know where to start to find these facts and figures. Perhaps you should do the leg work and post your findings? Start off simple and find the average working week of a UK train driver, rate of pay, Annual leave. Dont forget to link your findings.

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 1:37pm

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Oh dear god don't go down that argument of being responsible for lives and especially comparing train drivers to doctors of all things (which requires an 8 year education and more afterwards). Hell I'm responsible for lives every day just driving to work and not hitting anyone.

I get your username your obviously quite the socialist but we are not all equal in jobs

I'm not jealous in the slightest, I paid €40 to get a taxi this morning and was no skin off my nose (in fact was a lot comfier than the usual cattle train). Just to show how clearly off the mark you are my salary is €375 a day or just short of €7,500 a month before tax so I've nothing to be jealous off from train drivers.

But please continue if it helps you try and justify your point :rolleyes: Meanwhile I'll refer you back to the chart I posted which shows quite clearly they are the highest paid in Europe and being greedy.

So I'll ask you what have you got to counter actual facts and figures other than claiming pithy jealously

Actually my username is a pisstake on people being so willing to throw around the Communist/Socialist label - as you demonstrate well here.

Fact is, railway drivers are responsible for a significant number of lives on a daily basis, and should be compensated to match.

Your facts and figures are presented only so you can make a rhetorical claim as having presented 'facts' - even though the facts you present, don't do anything to counter my arguments - meaning I don't even need to address them; so don't pretend any facts you presented, challenge my arguments...

Being highly paid, does not equal being greedy (would that make you greedy then?) - it's really arrogant on your part, that you think you can read the minds of these workers, and know their motivations, and that you think you know what level of compensation is suitable for them...

What work do you do by the way, that affords you that salary? Lets see how justified that salary is...

suicide_circus · 23-10-2015 1:38pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I see, low paid people, are inherently more irresponsible !!!!! and being paid lots makes you more responsible ( hmm, let me see, bankers.....)

Bankers argument being used AGAINST EOTR.....may god help us all

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 1:39pm

Richard tea wrote: »

You seem to know it all. The average user here wouldn't know where to start to find these facts and figures. Perhaps you should do the leg work and post your findings? Start off simple and find the average working week of a UK train driver, rate of pay, Annual leave. Dont forget to link your findings.

If one side can provide arguments and facts and figures and the other cannot provide anything other than general comments when I guess you know the rest.

As for how to find stuff, I don't know if you have heard of this amazing technological breakthrough called Google. It will blow your mind

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 1:43pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I argue that Irish Rail should operate in a way that maximizes social benefit - while at the same time minimizing spending that is not necessary, in order to provide that social benefit - that is the goal, that is what the funding needs to be formed around (and it will require running at a significant loss).

You are just trying to define 'cost effective' as 'anything which argues in favour of cuts or of maintaining current cuts'.

Irish Rail is a legacy , a legacy made up of infrastructure from the 19th century, and mixed up with some modern technology

It didn't arrive on friday with a " social brief"

Rail transport exists in ireland for a complex series of reasons, partly transport orientated ( Dublin area only) , partly historical , partly because railways once were a key part of the national transport infrastructure , but not any more in any sense. partly because the political cost of firing everyone and shutting it down is too great etc etc

Because of the difficulties in shedding staff, Railway management are forced to save money by implementing infrastructure cuts and scaling back services, hence the removal of certain services and shortening DART etc during the recession. But in doing do they destroy their own market and subject the rail network to a death by a 1000 cuts.

Then you couple that by saving staff costs by natural wastage, since you do not have the option of redundancy , i.e. people leaving or retiring and you end up with a complete unbalanced staff base. Those with non transferrable skills will remain and stick it out to the bitter end and those with good marketable skills will leave.

The next result is a service with baked in inefficiencies and is in fact dying in front of us.

perhaps like a fallen horse we should end its misery

devnull · 23-10-2015 1:44pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

The problem with our government right now, is that it is not spending even nearly enough - mostly thanks to EU politics.

Sure, lets just spend spend spend spend like the bank will never run dry and not worry about the consequences.

That worked so well for Ahern and Cowen's governments and their friends in the banks and property development.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 1:44pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Fact is, railway drivers are responsible for a significant number of lives on a daily basis, and should be compensated to match.

By that rationale I should be compensated to match the fact that I don't crash my car and kill someone or a buss load of people like what happened in that poor old situation in France. In that case it seems the truck driver is directly responsible for 42 lives being lost.

But I'm fairly certain if he had been paid more then they would still be alive. See how mute your point is yet?

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Your facts and figures are presented only so you can make a rhetorical claim as having presented 'facts' - even though the facts you present, don't do anything to counter my arguments - meaning I don't even need to address them; so don't pretend any facts you presented, challenge my arguments...

No the facts and figures were presented so people like you can stop talking rubbish about how poorly treated and paid Irish Rail workers are when they are clearly not. Facts and figures you have actually yet to rebuke properly, and I also note your complete lack of an answer to my very specific question on Switzerland , the level of pay and cost of living (not that I'm surprised)

KomradeBishop wrote: »

What work do you do by the way, that affords you that salary? Lets see how justified that salary is...

I already posted what I worked as earlier in the thread. I've taken pay cuts to the tune of 40% but guess what I didn't bitch about it I got on with and did my job.

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 1:45pm

Fact is, railway drivers are responsible for a significant number of lives on a daily basis, and should be compensated to match

They are , clearly they are well paid, relative to their compatriots else where , and with salaries approaching 50-60 K ( and overtime ) they are well ahead of the average industrial wage earner or office worker

SO leaving that aside , whats your next argument

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 1:46pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

Public spending on infrastructure typically helps the economy as they money typically tends to filter through all levels of the economy, giving it to an overpaid train driver does not boost the economy, unless its the train drivers economy.

Inflation has increased for everybody, that point is fairly moot.

Thank you for pointing out your understanding of Public Finances, yes typically governments run deficits, but if you look at the US under Clinton he ran several years of surplus to pay down the national debt, Ireland had even ran a surplus for many years up until 2006 to a point where our debt to gdp was only 26%.

A government HAS to periodically run a surplus budget, yes you can argue that they use inflation to whittle away the principal until its immaterial and the only real cost if the servicing payments. If a government keeps borrowing it'll find itself ending up like Greece or Argentina, no money, tons of debt with people unwilling to lend to them.

Actually all public spending boosts the economy - that is an inherent mathematical fact about national accounting - public spending, inherently flows into the private economy (and it is not 1:1 funded, through taxes, as nearly all governments run a deficit).

The fact that inflation has increased, means that these workers wages have effectively been slowly eroded - meaning they are due a pay rise, regardless of who else has suffered the same.

Yes, Clinton ran a surplus, and so did Ireland - do you know what effect that had on the economy? People made up for the lack of money flowing into the economy, by taking on more private debt.

That sure ended well...blowing up a massive debt bubble that helped tank the economy - and then what happened? All that debt ended up on the governments balance sheet in the bailout, making public debt even worse than it would be without a private-debt-boosting budget-surplus.

When you remove money from the economy - as running a surplus does - the economy picks up the slack, through increased private debt.

That's why, historically, governments let debts diminish through inflation, not through surpluses (and no, you are wrong - letting debts whittle through inflation, does not have to increase Debt vs GDP) - governments nearly always run deficits, with surpluses/balanced-budgets being the rare exception to the rule.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 1:47pm

BoatMad wrote: »

SO leaving that aside , whats your next argument

He's actually had an argument in the first place???

Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

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