Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

rsmike

Poulgorm wrote: »

Inter city railways in this country should be closed down - we simply do not have the population centres to justify the huge expenditure to construct and run a modern, fast and safe service between our cities.

We wasted hundreds of millions on the Limerick - Galway line recently and the majority of the handful of people using it are pensioners. And you still have a pressure group in the West advocating (with a straight face), that the line should be extended to Sligo.

And then, you have the railway staff who feel that the country owes them a living. With their decades old work practices, refusal to implement changes that would improve the quality of service to the public - and the belligerent attitude that many of them display in their dealings with the public.

Commuter rail, from a radius of, say, 60 miles of Dublin, is where money should be invested.

And then, we have a road connecting two of our largest cities (Limerick and Cork) that resembles a boreen, for much of its length. And its upgrading is not even included in the recent 5 year capital programme that was recently announced.

What a country.

I would not go that far (yet), but when there is an offer of 8% on the table and unions would prefer to argue on a point of principle about "past productivity". This in an organisation that is costing the taxpayer €1million a month.

Maybe while the lunacy continues, shut it down, put on extra buses and save the taxpayer €1million a month, maybe more, as Bus Eireann would get a nice little boost in business.

Hmmm, maybe we (the tax and wage payers) should plan to shut it down. BRT and QBC's on the rail lines? http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/02/the-myth-that-everyone-naturally-prefers-trains-to-buses/385759/
Invest in Bus Eireann / BRT and shutdown Irish Rail?

end of the road

rsmike wrote: »

I would not go that far (yet)

you would not go that far at all unless you are against public transport, or have some sort of an anti-rail or very pro-road at all costs agenda

rsmike wrote: »

but when there is an offer of 8% on the table and unions would prefer to argue on a point of principle about "past productivity".

the management obviously agreed to something so its time to honour it. they should not have agreed to something if they aren't going to honour it

rsmike wrote: »

This in an organisation that is costing the taxpayer €1million a month.

1000000 a month? so our rail service only costs 12000000 a year? jesus they really could do with an increase?

rsmike wrote: »

Maybe while the lunacy continues, shut it down, put on extra buses and save the taxpayer €1million a month, maybe more, as Bus Eireann would get a nice little boost in business.

yeah. put on extra busses which would not be used as people go to the car instead. so no saving, and no boost for bus eireann over all.

rsmike wrote: »

Hmmm, maybe we (the tax and wage payers) should plan to shut it down.

hmmm. maybe, anyone who wants to shut it down should stop whining and except an integrated transport system including rail and road is the only exceptable method.

rsmike wrote: »

BRT and QBC's on the rail lines?

yeah, great idea. replace a decently used rail network which could do better, with BRTS and QBCS that nobody wants on said rail lines. great idea. its exactly the same nonsense that another group in the uk have been peddling since the 1980s, claiming that coaches could take up the slack of the rail lines out of london giving everyone a seat. laughable stuff really but there you go. can't remember the groups name though off the top of my head

rsmike wrote: »

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/02/the-myth-that-everyone-naturally-prefers-trains-to-buses/385759/

ah yes, an article filled with drivel that isn't backed up by history.

rsmike wrote: »

Invest in Bus Eireann / BRT and shutdown Irish Rail?

so. destroy irish rail just because rabel rabel. invest in BRT and bus eireann which rail users don't want to use and who will more then likely decide the car meets their needs now they don't have rail. got ya. good luck with that one.

GM228

Infini2 wrote: »

Hes right. The other grades haven't been drawn into this so far because the dispute is a drivers based one

Anybody with an understanding of unions and law would see it was a very smart move not to picket, picketing would have been a very silly choice.

GM228

Ctrl Alt Delete

GM228 wrote: »

Anybody with an understanding of unions and law would see it was a very smart move not to picket, picketing would have been a very silly choice.

GM228

I remember picketing during a major strike few years ago and colleagues from different departments had no legal choice but to cross it.

We respected that fact and they also have us their full support regardless. It's a weak excuse

GM228

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I remember picketing during a major strike few years ago and colleagues from different departments had no legal choice but to cross it.

We respected that fact and they also have us their full support regardless. It's a weak excuse

There's more to it than the legal choice to cross a picket.

GM228

snickerpuss

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I remember picketing during a major strike few years ago and colleagues from different departments had no legal choice but to cross it.

We respected that fact and they also have us their full support regardless. It's a weak excuse

No reply to the post about UK pay or are you just interested in Switzerland?

kingshankly

no strike in over a decade then two in six months since mr franks took charge

KomradeBishop

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

I'm sorry but you are clearly ignorant or trolling at this stage.

Exactly what part of my post that said 30% of spending together with a graph of countries where the spend goes to was unclear for you? Perhaps I should draw it out in crayon will that help?



You also clearly haven't a clue with regards to public sector spending.

In fact I would be 100% certain you wouldn't have the slightest idea how it can occur that an increase in public sector spending can actually depress private economies.

Your graph didn't state anything of the kind, it discussed as a percentage of public sector tenders, not spending going to the foreign sector, as a percentage of all public spending.

Dialing up the condescension to idiot levels doesn't bolster any of your arguments - just makes you look like you need to try and compensate for poor arguments.

My original point still stands (and was backed by another poster): Public spending (the vast majority of it) directly boosts the flow of money into the private economy - with that going into the foreign sector.

BuffyBot

Folks: civility and adult discussions are requirements for those participating on this forum. Some posts here fall short. I'd advice refreshing yourselves on the forum charter

Infini

GM228 wrote: »

Anybody with an understanding of unions and law would see it was a very smart move not to picket, picketing would have been a very silly choice.

GM228

Could eventually escalate though to all out if things continue. Other grades have issues as well and theres a theory going round that if the drivers get what theyre owed other grades will get what theyre owed too since theres many doing work of a higher grade but not actually being given it. In addition theres this

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/commuter-misery-as-bus-rail-and-luas-workers-prepare-for-more-strikes-34137230.html

If things continue a strike times at the same time at all 3 companies could happen and then itd be all out chaos.

GM228

Infini2 wrote: »

Could eventually escalate though to all out if things continue. Other grades have issues as well and theres a theory going round that if the drivers get what theyre owed other grades will get what theyre owed too since theres many doing work of a higher grade but not actually being given it. In addition theres this

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/commuter-misery-as-bus-rail-and-luas-workers-prepare-for-more-strikes-34137230.html

If things continue a strike times at the same time at all 3 companies could happen and then itd be all out chaos.

Indeed, interesting times ahead!

Inagine the LUAS, DB, BE and IE all on strike at the same time, would be a great day for taxi drivers.


GM228

Infini

GM228 wrote: »

Indeed, interesting times ahead!

Inagine the LUAS, DB, BE and IE all on strike at the same time, would be a great day for taxi drivers.


GM228

Taxis wouldnt be able to handle it tbh all 4 companies on strike at once would be an utter meltdown period. As things go its the perfect sheetstorm scenario that even the government would run scared of. As Ive said eveyone across the board are fed up now of this people got shafted cos they were forced to take cuts all over. Rail and bus staff mightve escaped most of it but thats only because theyre in a position to fight back when threatened. Something others dont have.

Its a pain that its the public that gets caught out of course but theres few other options when dealing with those in power and in management that LOATHE not being in control. In the end this boils down to the company not agreeing to honour its commitments that it signed up. Drivers gave their side but the company didnt follow through on its end. Cant expect anyone to agree to more when the other side is backing out.

dd972

Is it true you have to take a DNA test to get a job at Irish Rail?

howiya

Infini2 wrote: »

Taxis wouldnt be able to handle it tbh all 4 companies on strike at once would be an utter meltdown period. As things go its the perfect sheetstorm scenario that even the government would run scared of. As Ive said eveyone across the board are fed up now of this people got shafted cos they were forced to take cuts all over. Rail and bus staff mightve escaped most of it but thats only because theyre in a position to fight back when threatened. Something others dont have.

Its a pain that its the public that gets caught out of course but theres few other options when dealing with those in power and in management that LOATHE not being in control. In the end this boils down to the company not agreeing to honour its commitments that it signed up. Drivers gave their side but the company didnt follow through on its end. Cant expect anyone to agree to more when the other side is backing out.

How do you see this being resolved so? If drivers don't trust the company, how can they make any agreement to avoid further strikes?

Infini

howiya wrote: »

How do you see this being resolved so? If drivers don't trust the company, how can they make any agreement to avoid further strikes?

Company has to back down and agree to pay up to what they signed up to. Cant get around that because drivers cant trust them otherwise. There was a deal practically ready to be signed and had been agreed by both sides 2 weeks ago till Franks decided to block it according to the word on the ground. Rumors going around that even his own management teams getting fed up with him.

GM228

Infini2 wrote: »

Company has to back down and agree to pay up to what they signed up to. Cant get around that because drivers cant trust them otherwise. There was a deal practically ready to be signed and had been agreed by both sides 2 weeks ago till Franks decided to block it according to the word on the ground. Rumors going around that even his own management teams getting fed up with him.

A deal for the past or future?

If that is true and it was a past deal then it would reinforce the drivers claim as it shows the company were willing to accept money is owed.

GM228

GM228

Some more interesting reads on drivers salaries.

http://www.traindrivertrainee.com/Train-Driver-Pay-and-Conditions.html

Tube drivers are on nearly £50,000 a year for 36 hours:-
http://www.lbc.co.uk/how-much-does-a-tube-driver-make-in-a-year-111522

Australian drivers are on nearly $85,000 a year, but for how many hours is unknown:-
http://myfuture.edu.au/explore-careers/browse-occupations/details?Anzsco=731311C

New Zealand is similar to Australia:-
http://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs/transport-logistics/train-driver/

Canadian drivers are on nearly $109,000 a year-wow!
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Canadian-National-Railway-Salaries-E4455.htm

And finally average US drivers weekly wage:-
http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Locomotive-Engineer-Weekly-Salary-Details.aspx


GM228

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

Some more interesting reads on drivers salaries.

http://www.traindrivertrainee.com/Train-Driver-Pay-and-Conditions.html

Tube drivers are on nearly £50,000 a year for 36 hours:-
http://www.lbc.co.uk/how-much-does-a-tube-driver-make-in-a-year-111522

Australian drivers are on nearly $85,000 a year, but for how many hours is unknown:-
http://myfuture.edu.au/explore-careers/browse-occupations/details?Anzsco=731311C

New Zealand is similar to Australia:-
http://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs/transport-logistics/train-driver/

Canadian drivers are on nearly $109,000 a year-wow!
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Canadian-National-Railway-Salaries-E4455.htm

And finally average US drivers weekly wage:-
http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Locomotive-Engineer-Weekly-Salary-Details.aspx


GM228

How do these compare to Irish driver's wages? (I'm sure they're mentioned somewhere in the past 500 odd posts but can’t see it)

Jamie2k9

Deleted User wrote: »

How do these compare to Irish driver's wages? (I'm sure they're mentioned somewhere in the past 500 odd posts but can’t see it)

Irish Rail are between 37,000-40,000 pounds or 50,000-52,000 euro....so quiet a nice bit above the UK ones. I could be wrong but some drivers could be on higher.

How many days/hours do Irish Rail require, annual holidays etc?

Jamie2k9

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail are between 37,000-40,000 pounds or 50,000-52,000 euro....so quiet a nice bit above the UK ones. I could be wrong but some drivers could be on higher.

How many days/hours do Irish Rail require, annual holidays etc?

A quick look at the scales mentioned in the first link above buts the pay range from £31k to £35k for a regional rail driver to £47k for a Eurostar driver.
So more or less similar pay when you take cost of living into consideration, Eurostar drivers are probably skilled than the others.

GM228

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A quick look at the scales mentioned in the first link above buts the pay range from £31k to £35k for a regional rail driver to £47k for a Eurostar driver.
So more or less similar pay when you take cost of living into consideration, Eurostar drivers are probably skilled than the others.

The only skill I could see a Eurostar driver having over other drivers is they need to be fluent in both English and French.

GM228

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail are between 37,000-40,000 pounds or 50,000-52,000 euro....so quiet a nice bit above the UK ones. I could be wrong but some drivers could be on higher.

How many days/hours do Irish Rail require, annual holidays etc?

You mean Irish drivers are below the UK, the UK drivers get that pay for a 35-37 hour working week depending on the company and most are based on a 4 day working week, their working week is Monday-Saturday, Sundays are not part of their working week and are worked as OT and a higher rate. Most UK operators Sunday services are reliant on drivers working OT. This is something which dates back to BR days.

Irish drivers are paid for a 48 hour working week based on 5 days which includes Sundays with no extra pay for those days or a higher rate.

GM228

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

You mean Irish drivers are below the UK, the UK drivers get that pay for a 35-37 hour working week depending on the company and most are based on a 4 day working week, their working week is Monday-Saturday, Sundays are not part of their working week and are worked as OT and a higher rate. Most UK operators Sunday services are reliant on drivers working OT. This is something which dates back to BR days.

Irish drivers are paid for a 48 hour working week based on 5 days which includes Sundays with no extra pay for those days or a higher rate.

GM228

God love them, they get paid adequately for the work they do and the level of passengers carried. Note this excludes the 8% raise tabled. We are all not equal.

UK trains are longer and busier so any extra pay is acceptable. Didn't unions argue for extra pay over here because of longer trains back some time ago, well pay should remain as is as trains are shorter now.

Jamie2k9

The only skill I could see a Eurostar driver having over other drivers is they need to be fluent in both English and French.

GM228

The word "France" is enough to justify the extra pay.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

God love them, they get paid adequately for the work they do and the level of passengers carried. Note this excludes the 8% raise tabled. We are all not equal.

UK trains are longer and busier so any extra pay is acceptable. Didn't unions argue for extra pay over here because of longer trains back some time ago, well pay should remain as is as trains are shorter now.

So the arguement has moved from being the best paid in Europe to be paid for the size of the train!

Why would a busier train require higher pay?

That's like saying an artic driver should get more than a rigid driver because he has a longer truck and more cargo!

GM228

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

So the arguement has moved from being the best paid in Europe to be paid for the size of the train!

Why would a busier train require higher pay?

GM228

You tell me, the unions here wanted it when DARTS were longer.....

I move the goal posts just like unions move them when they like.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You tell me, the unions here wanted it when DARTS were longer.....

I move the goal posts just like unions move them when they like.

unions don't move them when they like

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You tell me, the unions here wanted it when DARTS were longer.....

I move the goal posts just like unions move them when they like.

If I remember correctly that arguement was about driving new trains, which happened to be longer, it was not specifically about driving longer trains in general.

I certainly would not agree with the unions if it was purely about longer trains as I don't think train lenghts or how busy they are is a way to base pay around.

GM228

Infini

GM228 wrote: »

If I remember correctly that arguement was about driving new trains, which happened to be longer, it was not specifically about driving longer trains in general.

I certainly would not agree with the unions if it was purely about longer trains as I don't think train lenghts or how busy they are is a way to base pay around.

GM228

Id agree it would be a bit ridiculous to think drivers wanted pay for driving longer trains unless there was something else like safety involved.

Another thing to note is the fact the company wants the drivers to work longer hours but infact theres not enough drivers as it is and the dart drivers are already on 48hrs (something to note but afink theyre not allowed work more than that due to EU safety legislation) to cover the whole 10 minute service the company wants. Others want to get out and retire as well but they cant leave.

If you were to ask about how the companys run from the ground staffs point of view you would find most would agree with you that they feel the companys badly managed. Decisions are long fingered almost all the time until it gets ridiculous. Even the whole negotiations were a case of the driver side looking to agree to something only for the company side to go away and come back with something different. I mean if Franks is gonna flip the table at everything why isnt he in the room and just say so and actually TALK? It would save a ton of time as well. Instead he seems to be afraid to even come into the room and just rejects everything over the phone with no reason why. This is how people get pissed off and relations break down to the point the staff strike out of sheer frustration.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

Id agree it would be a bit ridiculous to think drivers wanted pay for driving longer trains unless there was something else like safety involved.

Another thing to note is the fact the company wants the drivers to work longer hours but infact theres not enough drivers as it is and the dart drivers are already on 48hrs (something to note but afink theyre not allowed work more than that due to EU safety legislation) to cover the whole 10 minute service the company wants. Others want to get out and retire as well but they cant leave.

If you were to ask about how the companys run from the ground staffs point of view you would find most would agree with you that they feel the companys badly managed. Decisions are long fingered almost all the time until it gets ridiculous. Even the whole negotiations were a case of the driver side looking to agree to something only for the company side to go away and come back with something different. I mean if Franks is gonna flip the table at everything why isnt he in the room and just say so and actually TALK? It would save a ton of time as well. Instead he seems to be afraid to even come into the room and just rejects everything over the phone with no reason why. This is how people get pissed off and relations break down to the point the staff strike out of sheer frustration.

Won't current drivers not keep an eye on the new drivers hired for such a DART service.

If I remember correctly that arguement was about driving new trains, which happened to be longer, it was not specifically about driving longer trains in general.

I certainly would not agree with the unions if it was purely about longer trains as I don't think train lenghts or how busy they are is a way to base pay around.

GM228

It was pure Greed from the unions, it was for longer trains no if and's or but's about it. They may of been new trains but they were busier hence them been longer.

The company should of been shut down in 2009 and cleared out and all staff re employed on acceptable T&C's. Any one remember the clear out Aer Lingus got and look where they are today....