Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

alcaline

CosmicJay wrote: »

as I've shown in a previous post the pension is worth 9,075 a year, bringing their total to 64,075 per annum.
/I][/B]

Have you got any proof of this, or was it a man in the pub who told you?

Hilly Bill

alcaline wrote: »

Have you got any proof of this, or was it a man in the pub who told you?

He's guesstimating.

KomradeBishop

devnull wrote: »

Tell me what happens if the whole country is run like that and every sector makes a loss every year? And the government spends vastly more than it brings in.

Clue: it happened in recent history.



Profit is an incorrect word used there, it is not counted as profit in accounting turns, it can be referedo as income, turnover but profit is what is left when costs have been taken away from what was brought in, which if is a minus figure is called a loss.

Some aspects of the quality of service are not directly related to funding, which is being increased form 2016.

Tell me where anyone said the whole country should run like that?

Public services in various countries, have operated at a loss for centuries in order to provide adequate quality of service - it's not exactly a 'new' thing.

KomradeBishop

devnull wrote: »

Every company in the land had to adjust the way they operated due to the financial crisis, Irish Rail should be no different in that like Lxflyer has pointed out.

I'm sure that further increases will be looked at in time and in following budgets but I don't wish the country to go back to the reckless spending under Cowen and Ahern which caused this mess in the first place.

If you want to create another cycle of boom and bust, I don
Again - Irish Rail are not a company in any way other than a technicality, they do not operate on a for-profit or balanced-accounting basis, and they never should.

Repeat: Irish Rail should always operate at a loss, as that's what is required for a proper service - they are effectively an arm of government, and should be funded as such.

Anyone who thinks a properly funded rail service is 'reckless', is just pursuing their own limited agenda.


You should read up on fairly basic economics surrounding the crisis: The banks blew up the economy, not government.

Ctrl Alt Delete

end of the road wrote: »

ah, another one. i think you will find extremist Regan's tactics ultimately failed as the air traffic controlers called his bluff by not returning to work. fair play to them. if the drivers went on strike for a full day you would be whining and when they only do it for a couple of hours your whining. your suggestions would be a failure from the get go and would lead to a situation where we will have a railway but no staff to run it. i'm not willing to pick up the tab to suit 1980s anti-workers rights drivel championed by extremist right wing governments who had no place then and have no place now. negotiation is the key thanks. the unions need that ultimate threat to protect their workers, its for the greater good. if it means i have to suffer, i'm willing to except it

Apart from the fact I've actually never whined when someone has gone on strike for a full day because they have the courage of conviction to lose a days pay not just a few hours, you are also wrong in that ultimately it was Regan who won and not the ATC controllers, so you can consider yourself corrected on that one.

But your right about anti-workers rights drivel though as in workers should be able to get to work and go about their business without interference from a greedy group of overpaid drivers and just like Regan no one group or person should be able to interfere in that.

That's an example of the greater good as in a whole country and not just the greedy drivers who seem to think they are they only ones who suffered cuts.

BoatMad

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Tell me where anyone said the whole country should run like that?

Public services in various countries, have operated at a loss for centuries in order to provide adequate quality of service - it's not exactly a 'new' thing.

railway companies were efficient private companies making considerable profit until after WW2. The concept of state sponsored " public transport" is entirely "new"

CosmicJay

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Again, it's not a 'company' in any sense more than a technicality - it's effectively a part of government, and should never be treated otherwise - there's a crapload of money available to be allocated for funding this service.

If you think you know who I work for, provide some evidence instead of coming out with that rhetorical garbage - I'm not going to acknowledge one way or the other just yet, as I want to see the depths you'll plumb that rhetorical tool.

At what point have I ever assumed that I know who you work for?

Secondly while your base assumptions are correct, it is still a state - owned enterprise (a government corporation), even if they are statutory corporations and officially non - profit they still have a state Minister as a shareholder and are governed by any statutes under which they were incorporated. (Companies Act) I do agree that most of these run at a loss but not one quite as large as CIE. At some point they do have to make a profit.

Irish Rail is ultimately a sub-standard service which is a massive financial drain on the state, and people are trying to make it an even larger blackhole.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Is this the pension that not all staff are paying into and they get when they retire with little in return? You cant add that to their weekly salary now can you? what travel perks add to their weekly salary?????????

Talk to any Irish Rail driver, they are allowed use the service for free while not on duty, they also get free travel with Dublin Bus and BE (Unofficially they don't but you can still count this as a perk).

Infini2 wrote: »

Actually pensions are taken from existing wages theyre not added afterwards. The only ones I think your referring to are superannuation schemes that clerical and management get but not the drivers (also those schemes disallow you the state pension as well).Also If im not mistaken I thought the average wage was like 38k not 32k that seems far too low.

No I am not calculating superannuation schemes, the average pension given to an Irish Rail driver after 40 years of service is worth 9,075 extra per year.

The average industrial wages is 32k.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/average-wage-beyond-our-graduates-30533511.html

end of the road

my friend wrote: »

Wow, you have a bizarre way of looking at hard facts

i don't.

my friend wrote: »

When Reagan fired the ATC he won, he blew them out of the water, they lost their jobs

When Reagan fired the ATC, it was after they decided not to return to work, they had decided to call his bluff and not return. they knew they would be fired as at the time as i understand, it was infact illegal for air traffic controlers to strike anyway. he made a threat, they called his bluff knowing he would cary it out. if you think they didn't ultimately know what they were doing your mistaken.

my friend wrote: »

ATC has higher skill requirements than train shunting if ATC can be replaced then train drivers can too

no they can't. not only would it take over a year to train new drivers and we'd have nobody to drive the trains, but we'd have no trainers either because you have fired them all. i'm not willing to pick up that problem just to suit anti-workers rights drivel.
the military had to run the air traffic control for a long time after the dispute and even then the replacements had to train on the job for a long long time after their original training. realistically, the ATC could only be replaced at great up-evil and damage to the industry, just to suit an extremist president who's ideals ultimately failed.

my friend wrote: »

train drivers have zero support of the public

have they? have you a survey you could link to that i could read? a number of the public won't support them but at the end of the day thats the case with anyone striking. however public support while nice won't ultimately solve the dispute.

my friend wrote: »

I don't want another penny of my hard earned taxes subsidising rail services that I never use

i don't want to pay for whatever services you use that i don't either, but its tough. i'm paying. but guess what, i'm willing to as it means that if i need them they are there for me to use.

CosmicJay

alcaline wrote: »

Have you got any proof of this, or was it a man in the pub who told you?

Oh I don't know, living with an Irish Rail driver?

Hilly Bill wrote: »

He's guesstimating.

Please add something useful next time.

KomradeBishop

BoatMad wrote: »

railway companies were efficient private companies making considerable profit until after WW2. The concept of state sponsored " public transport" is entirely "new"

I wasn't limiting this to rail or public transport - the Romans are a big historical example, of significant public services.

Ctrl Alt Delete

end of the road wrote: »

no they can't. not only would it take over a year to train new drivers and we'd have nobody to drive the trains, but we'd have no trainers either because you have fired them all. i'm not willing to pick up that problem just to suit anti-workers rights drivel.

Isn't the EU freedom of travel, business and employment a great and beautiful thing.

As much as train drivers here would like to think they are irreplaceable I'm 100% certain they could all very easily be replaced from within the EU should the will be there, so let them not return to work for as long as they wish.

KomradeBishop

CosmicJay wrote: »

At what point have I ever assumed that I know who you work for?

Secondly while your base assumptions are correct, it is still a state - owned enterprise (a government corporation), even if they are statutory corporations and officially non - profit they still have a state Minister as a shareholder and are governed by any statutes under which they were incorporated. (Companies Act) I do agree that most of these run at a loss but not one quite as large as CIE. At some point they do have to make a profit.

Irish Rail is ultimately a sub-standard service which is a massive financial drain on the state, and people are trying to make it an even larger blackhole.

Irish Rail never have to make a profit. That choice is entirely up to government.

Paying for a quality public service, is not a 'financial drain' - it is paying for a quality public service!

BoatMad

When Reagan fired the ATC, it was after they decided not to return to work, they had decided to call his bluff and not return. they knew they would be fired as at the time as i understand, it was infact illegal for air traffic controlers to strike anyway. he made a threat, they called his bluff knowing he would cary it out. if you think they didn't ultimately know what they were doing your mistaken.

you are entirely mistaken, it was an enormous defeat for organised labor in the USA

The 1981 strike and defeat of PATCO was called "one of the most important events in late twentieth century U.S. labor history" by labor historian Joseph A. McCartin.[1]

most air traffic controller that participated were banned for life from federal jobs and PATCO was disenfranchised from representing federal workers and effectively because moribund. The military only provided " some " controllers, many were from other areas

It did take 10 years to reestablish full civilian air traffic control, but is was a disaster for the original air traffic controllers and PATCO

"The strikers were often working class men and women who had achieved suburban middle class lives as air traffic controllers without having gone to college. Many were veterans of the US armed forces where they had learned their skills; their union had backed Reagan in his election campaign. Nevertheless, Reagan refused to back down. Several strikers were jailed; the union was fined and eventually made bankrupt. Only about 800 got their jobs back when Clinton lifted the ban on rehiring those who had struck. Many of the strikers were forced into poverty as a result of being blacklisted for [U.S. government] employment

yep, the workers won, to suggest it was some workers rights victory , is an extreme delusional view

LXFlyer

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Does anyone know why, for example, the first DART didn't leave Bray until 0940? The Strike ended at 9am, presumably there were DARTs in Bray, so why the delay?
Do drivers clock on in Clontarf Road or Connolly?

It would presumably boil down to which drivers were due to operate which DARTs. They would be going back onto their regular rosters.

end of the road

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Apart from the fact I've actually never whined when someone has gone on strike for a full day because they have the courage of conviction to lose a days pay not just a few hours,

so what. it meant less disruption.

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

you are also wrong in that ultimately it was Regan who won and not the ATC controllers

i am also right in that it was the ATC controlers who won as they called his bluff and proved the extremist would do whatever to ensure his country of no workers rights would come to fruition. they called his bluff, they didn't return to work, they are heroes.

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

so you can consider yourself corrected on that one.

i can consider myself not corrected at all as i'm right. but anyway this isn't actually something for this thread anyway, but i wanted to correct you.

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

But your right about anti-workers rights drivel though as in workers should be able to get to work and go about their business without interference from a greedy group of overpaid drivers

they are not over paidd. they are paid similar to drivers in other companies abroad such as the uk. people were able to get to work using the busses. not perfect but better then nothing.

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

just like Regan no one group or person should be able to interfere in that.

they aren't. and i wouldn't take the opinions of a extremist like Regan seriously personally.

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

That's an example of the greater good as in a whole country and not just the greedy drivers who seem to think they are they only ones who suffered cuts.

the drivers aren't greedy.

Ctrl Alt Delete

end of the road wrote: »

so what. it meant less disruption.

So my point is they haven't the courage of conviction to actually forego a full days pay.

end of the road wrote: »

i am also right in that it was the ATC controlers who won as they called his bluff and proved the extremist would do whatever to ensure his country of no workers rights would come to fruition. they called his bluff, they didn't return to work, they are heroes.

i can consider myself not corrected at all as i'm right. but anyway this isn't actually something for this thread anyway, but i wanted to correct you.

Unfortunately I cannot do anything for you if you choose to stay ignorant of facts and decide to make up your own history or only understand half of that history. But before you declare a winner of the unions remember that they did not beat Regan by not returning to work, because the fact is they couldn't LEGALLY return to work until Bill Clinton repealed the law that banned them from being rehired that just under 1,000 of them actually were :P:P:P:P

end of the road wrote: »

they are not over paidd. they are paid similar to drivers in other companies abroad such as the uk. people were able to get to work using the busses. not perfect but better then nothing.

So then if they are paid on par with their EU counterparts what is their problem unless of course they are greedy self serving tools, who caused chaos this morning.

BoatMad

Paying for a quality public service, is not a 'financial drain' - it is paying for a quality public service!

indeed the operable word being " paying" and quality , little of which is visible

Infini

BoatMad wrote: »

railway companies were efficient private companies making considerable profit until after WW2. The concept of state sponsored " public transport" is entirely "new"

Yeah they were making profits till the whole motor industry came along and undermined that underhandedly. These are the ones that went out of their way to destroy these things as well and look what happened. Traffic jams conjestion and pollution. Dont forget that either.

LXFlyer

my friend wrote: »

Wow, you have a bizarre way of looking at hard facts

When Reagan fired the ATC he won, he blew them out of the water, they lost their jobs

ATC has higher skill requirements than train shunting if ATC can be replaced then train drivers can too

Respect to minister O'Donohue for staying out of this fools protest, train drivers have zero support of the public and I don't want another penny of my hard earned taxes subsidising rail services that I never use

If train drivers want an increase let them and Irish rail earn it by growing their business together

At least be realistic about this - it takes 18 months to train a train driver - it is not something that anyone can do immediately.


They have to know every inch of the railway that they drive along - the particular relevance of this is knowing instinctively where the braking points are in pitch black darkness.

BoatMad

the drivers aren't greedy.

The drivers are complaining that they are being asked to do "non driving " jobs. yet the role of a modern driver is infinitely easier and less manual then it was 50 years ago. They have little to do because modern railcars are simple and modern signalling makes their life easier.

The fact is that with rationalisation and most of irish rail reduced to a series of "halts" , drivers will have to get out of their cabs and help , its a fact of life

CosmicJay

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Irish Rail never have to make a profit. That choice is entirely up to government.

Paying for a quality public service, is not a 'financial drain' - it is paying for a quality public service!

The aim of CIE/Irish Rail is to provide cheap and efficient transport, this is particularly important to agriculture, industry and tourism.

It becomes a financial drain when an excessively large amount of money is being pumped into a blackhole which is unable to provide a basic standard of service.

The government does not have to constantly cover Irish Rails losses, yes it is a semi-state body but that does not mean it constantly has to operate at a loss. I would rather see money invested into healthcare, education and tax cuts rather than an aging and ailing Rail System full of entitled overpaid inefficient crybabies.

If the government has to constantly provide funding to Irish Rail to cover losses they service will never actually improve as rampant inefficiencies get worse.

BoatMad

lxflyer wrote: »

At least be realistic about this - it takes 18 months to train a train driver - it is not something that anyone can do immediately.


They have to know every inch of the railway that they drive along - the particular relevance of this is knowing instinctively where the braking points are in pitch black darkness.

CAWS could handle most of that anyway

yes driving a train require a level of skill and training, but its not rocket science

Hilly Bill

CosmicJay wrote: »

Talk to any Irish Rail driver, they are allowed use the service for free while not on duty, they also get free travel with Dublin Bus and BE (Unofficially they don't but you can still count this as a perk).



l[/URL][/QUOTE


You really havent thought that one through have you?

BoatMad

The aim of CIE/Irish Rail is to provide cheap and efficient transport, this is particularly important to agriculture, industry and tourism.

how is Irish Rail important to agriculture, its runs about three freight trains a WEEK in this country , as for industry , beyond a few timber trains and being forced to carry naval ore because of planning, its not relevant to industry at all.

irish rail is a DART service for passengers, all around ireland, outside dublin it carries so few passengers as to be a pimple on the backside of transport, its broadly irrelevant

LXFlyer

The bottom line in terms of where the company is currently from a financial perspective is that the revenue from passengers dropped significantly in a very short space of time, while at the same time costs did not fall in the same manner.

PSO funding fell as a result of the passenger numbers dropping - that's a fact of life.

I get the impression some people want to have their cake and eat it.

IE should be able to operate in a cost effective manner, and with best commercial practices - that is what, as a taxpayer, I would expect. Doing that, should result, after PSO funding is taken into account, in the company at the very least breaking even.

It certainly should not be a bottomless pit in which to shovel state funding.

end of the road

CosmicJay wrote: »

they also get free travel with Dublin Bus and BE (Unofficially they don't but you can still count this as a perk).

by Unofficially you mean they actually don't?

LXFlyer

BoatMad wrote: »

CAWS could handle most of that anyway

yes driving a train require a level of skill and training, but its not rocket science

It is still a job that requires an awful lot of training - and to suggest otherwise is nonsense. It takes 18 months to pass out a new train driver -that's not an insignificant amount of training.

It is simply not an option to "fire them all" as that poster was suggesting.

So let's be realistic.

end of the road

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Isn't the EU freedom of travel, business and employment a great and beautiful thing.

As much as train drivers here would like to think they are irreplaceable I'm 100% certain they could all very easily be replaced from within the EU should the will be there, so let them not return to work for as long as they wish.

they cannot be replaced to the high standard required and thats the end of it. when it comes to jobs like train driving you pay for what you get

CosmicJay

Hilly Bill wrote: »

CosmicJay wrote: »

Talk to any Irish Rail driver, they are allowed use the service for free while not on duty, they also get free travel with Dublin Bus and BE (Unofficially they don't but you can still count this as a perk).



l[/URL][/QUOTE


You really havent thought that one through have you?

How so?

If a person is able to avail of a perk which is not officially backed by their company it is still an inherent perk.

I.e Jimmy the DART driver gets on a bus, says to Tony the Bus Driver 'Hey, I'm a DART driver'. Tony lets Jimmy on for free.

Ask any DART driver, it exists.

end of the road

BoatMad wrote: »

you are entirely mistaken, it was an enormous defeat for organised labor in the USA



most air traffic controller that participated were banned for life from federal jobs and PATCO was disenfranchised from representing federal workers and effectively because moribund. The military only provided " some " controllers, many were from other areas

It did take 10 years to reestablish full civilian air traffic control, but is was a disaster for the original air traffic controllers and PATCO




yep, the workers won, to suggest it was some workers rights victory , is an extreme delusional view

i never mentioned "workers rights victory" in fairness. i simply stated they knew what was coming and called the presidents bluff showing him up for what he really was. as i understand it was actually illegal for air traffic controlers to strike in the US anyway. anyway its taking the thread away from the train drivers.