Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:31AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Sorry but, wanting a crapified public service, and to withhold pay from public service workers, just so you can have a tax cut: That's greed.

I think a small group of people who are paid above the average industrial wage moaning that they are not paid enough and should get paid more, so a far higher number of people who are paid significantly less get nothing is greed, yes.

You're saying the needs of at best a few thousand are more important than the needs of the entire working population of this country. So yeah, that's not greedy at all of course.

CosmicJay · 23-10-2015 10:31AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Sorry but, wanting a crapified public service, and to withhold pay from public service workers, just so you can have a tax cut: That's greed.

No no no, it's greed when someone goes on strike, causing mayhem for all of their customers and demands more money from a cash haemorrhaging company while being on almost double the average Industrial Wage.

I have a feeling you don't like sharing much.

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:34AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

This is a public service, not a 'company' in any sense other than a technicality - public services are intentionally run at a loss, because that's how they prioritize social benefit over profitability.

You don't have any understanding of economics, if you think governments have to run at a profit - they generally never have in all of history (budget surpluses have always been a relatively short lived thing).

Where did I mention the word profit?

All I'm saying is that a company cannot keep running at a huge loss every year. I'm not expecting a company to make a profit but they should be aiming to get as close to breaking even as possible and run as efficiently as possible.

Ctrl Alt Delete · 23-10-2015 10:35AM

Should do what Regan done with the air traffic controllers sack the lot of them, liquidate Irish rail and form new company.

Then see if they decide their new working conditions with a new company would be as preferable. They haven't even got the balls to lose a full days pay for a strike and choose this 6-9am bull instead.

No union should be able to make ****e of the country in the morning

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 10:36AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

You seem to forget that as a country we almost went bankrupt, bailout, massive wipe out of jobs, unemployment to 15%. Irish Rail staff barely noticed it, no layoff's or even any pay cuts until 2014.

As many other posters have said here before its completely base level greed, sheer entitlement and complete contempt for the public.

Dublin Bus managed to turn a profit this year, only after deeply cutting costs and actually getting its house in order, Irish Rail seems to be the Greece of Irish Semi-state bodies. Give us more money because f**k you that's why.

The level of money sunk into Irish Rail is in no way justified by the crappy crappy service it provides.

Sorry but that's just begrudgery with Irish Rail workers being able to get a better deal than you: When the rest of the country does nothing and through that tacitly consents to being shafted, it's their own fault - anyone who thinks that bailout wasn't ridiculously excessive and unjustifiable, has only themselves to blame.

If you don't want to get shafted in the next coming crisis, be ready to actually be active about defending yourself, like the striking rail workers.

You simply don't run essential public services on a profit. That's the entire point of them being publicly run, because they can't prioritize social benefit if they don't de-prioritize profit; that's the case with a wide range of industries.

Don't bother complaining about crap services, if you're calling for more cuts, as you're synonymously calling for worse services - there's no magic fairytale service that can operate better with massive cuts - that's a myth.

The idea that the 40% cut mentioned by another earlier, can all be recouped in 'efficiency', is ridiculous.

end of the road · 23-10-2015 10:37AM

devnull wrote: »

So again, you believe the state should invest in areas that just by co-incidence include one of those that you work in rather than every single working man and woman in this country?

Greed.

There are many sectors that are struggling for funding and many people in the state who are in the same boat, should we tell the people that are living on the breadline that we are not giving you tax cuts, because people who are paid more than you are going to see benefit of extra money instead?

Greed Again

So basically what you are saying that the drivers should be given more money but savings should be found from everyone else in the company?

Greed again.

rubbish. investing in our infrastructure, education, health, law enforcement is not greed. it is investing in us all

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:39AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

The idea that the 40% cut mentioned by another earlier, can all be recouped in 'efficiency', is ridiculous.

Half of the PSO that was cut from CIE is being restored from 2016.

Sorry if that doesn't suit your agenda but it's true.

end of the road · 23-10-2015 10:39AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

No no no, it's greed when someone goes on strike, causing mayhem for all of their customers and demands more money from a cash haemorrhaging company while being on almost double the average Industrial Wage.

I have a feeling you don't like sharing much.

the drivers are on a wage similar to other drivers in other companies. striking is never greedy, it is essential when all other options have failed which sadly, it looks like that has happened here.

Infini · 23-10-2015 10:40AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

No no no, it's greed when someone goes on strike, causing mayhem for all of their customers and demands more money from a cash haemorrhaging company while being on almost double the average Industrial Wage.

I have a feeling you don't like sharing much.

Drivers arent on double the average wage you'd have to be earning like 80k and drivers dont come close to that at €55k at the top of the scale. Even then thats before taxes reduced even that amount further. As I've said people get jealous that people have a wage thats for a job with 48hrs a week work on shift. Theyre not happy that some have managed to hold their ground while they havent had a choice since they havent got any protection themselves.

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:40AM

end of the road wrote: »

rubbish. investing in our infrastructure, education, health, law enforcement is not greed. it is investing in us all

Of course investing in infrastructure is important and where possible it should be maintained.

But not at the expense of something that will benefit the whole country many of which who are struggling on far lower wages to make ends meet.

The government in the last budget decided to do a bit of both.

snickerpuss · 23-10-2015 10:45AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

Let's not be disingenuous, Irish Rail staff are not paid pittance. After factoring in pension, salary and travel perks they are quote well paid, show me any other job where a person can complete 8-12 weeks of training and get 40k + a year.

There seems to be a disconnect with reality at Irish Rail.

Why do people just make stuff up?

Rather than training for 8 weeks as you guessed, it takes a full year to train a driver and they must also complete a certain number of driving hours.

They must then learn each route individually - from signal locations, speed restrictions, gradients, landmarks, gates etc... every metre of track. They are then tested on the route before being allowed to drive it.

Thereafter, they must retake their 'rules' exam annually along with other training, their driving being downloaded and analysed etc etc.

It's not as simple as you're making out. When I see people suggest we sack all the drivers in Ireland it makes me wonder who they think could drive the trains for the full year or eighteen months it would take to train up even a fraction of the drivers working now.

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:46AM

Infini2 wrote: »

Drivers arent on double the average wage you'd have to be earning like 80k

You really believe the average industrial wage in Ireland is €80k?

Christ, detached from reality much?

drivers dont come close to that at €55k at the top of the scale. Even then thats before taxes reduced even that amount further.

Everyone's salary is stated before taxes. Everyone has to pay taxes.

But I can tell you this that there are a lot more people earning under 55k in this country than over it. And the general feeling I'm getting on here is

- the people who earn less are supposed to forego any kind of tax cut because it's their own fault.
- the people on around that are supposed to get a rise because they deserve it.
- the people who are on a lot more than that are paid too much and are likely management therefore evil.

schemingbohemia · 23-10-2015 10:46AM

Does anyone know why, for example, the first DART didn't leave Bray until 0940? The Strike ended at 9am, presumably there were DARTs in Bray, so why the delay?
Do drivers clock on in Clontarf Road or Connolly?

end of the road · 23-10-2015 10:46AM

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Should do what Regan done with the air traffic controllers sack the lot of them, liquidate Irish rail and form new company.

Then see if they decide their new working conditions with a new company would be as preferable. They haven't even got the balls to lose a full days pay for a strike and choose this 6-9am bull instead.

No union should be able to make ****e of the country in the morning

ah, another one. i think you will find extremist Regan's tactics ultimately failed as the air traffic controlers called his bluff by not returning to work. fair play to them. if the drivers went on strike for a full day you would be whining and when they only do it for a couple of hours your whining. your suggestions would be a failure from the get go and would lead to a situation where we will have a railway but no staff to run it. i'm not willing to pick up the tab to suit 1980s anti-workers rights drivel championed by extremist right wing governments who had no place then and have no place now. negotiation is the key thanks. the unions need that ultimate threat to protect their workers, its for the greater good. if it means i have to suffer, i'm willing to except it

CosmicJay · 23-10-2015 10:46AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Sorry but that's just begrudgery with Irish Rail workers being able to get a better deal than you: When the rest of the country does nothing and through that tacitly consents to being shafted, it's their own fault - anyone who thinks that bailout wasn't ridiculously excessive and unjustifiable, has only themselves to blame.

If you don't want to get shafted in the next coming crisis, be ready to actually be active about defending yourself, like the striking rail workers.

You simply don't run essential public services on a profit. That's the entire point of them being publicly run, because they can't prioritize social benefit if they don't de-prioritize profit; that's the case with a wide range of industries.

Don't bother complaining about crap services, if you're calling for more cuts, as you're synonymously calling for worse services - there's no magic fairytale service that can operate better with massive cuts - that's a myth.

The idea that the 40% cut mentioned by another earlier, can all be recouped in 'efficiency', is ridiculous.

While I have heard the begrudgery defence so many times before it's still as hilarious as ever. Thankfully I wasn't hit that badly by the recession. However I did see so many people struggle and actually take the hit, lets not get into a pro/against the bailout argument in this thread.

The fact is it happened, as a country everyone had to suck it up, people lost their jobs, reduced hours, deduced pay packets, people began living hand to mouth, you could say that everyone was in it together, even the Public Sector workers. Not Irish Rail staff though, oh no, they threw tantrums and whined and moaned and managed to get through it.

In 2014 when they received a paycut to reduce their gross financial burden on the state we've had 2 strikes since.

I would imagine most people's problems with it is that for the money we are not getting a good service, so rather than try and turn things around they simply ask for more money. As I've said in a previous post Irish Rail is the Greece of Irish semi-state's, almost like an out of control teenager who doesn't know the value of money.

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 10:47AM

devnull wrote: »

I think a small group of people who are paid above the average industrial wage moaning that they are not paid enough and should get paid more, so a far higher number of people who are paid significantly less get nothing is greed, yes.

You're saying the needs of at best a few thousand are more important than the needs of the entire working population of this country. So yeah, that's not greedy at all of course.

This is just the 'public vs private' narrative bollocks - why should any public sector workers let their employer lie to them and screw them over, just out of some stupid sense of it being 'unfair' to the public if they defend themselves?

If your company pays you more, and this means they pay less to someone else, do you give a toss? Highly doubt it...

That's the governments problem, not the Irish Rail workers - their employer isn't holding up their side of the bargain, now they strike - wanting the government to successfully screw them over, is greed.

By your moral standard we might as well completely defund the public services to provide tax cuts to the private sector.

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:48AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

I would imagine most people's problems with it is that for the money we are not getting a good service, so rather than try and turn things around they simply ask for more money.

Indeed, and not all of it is down to funding which is being increased in 2016.

CosmicJay · 23-10-2015 10:48AM

Infini2 wrote: »

Drivers arent on double the average wage you'd have to be earning like 80k and drivers dont come close to that at €55k at the top of the scale. Even then thats before taxes reduced even that amount further. As I've said people get jealous that people have a wage thats for a job with 48hrs a week work on shift. Theyre not happy that some have managed to hold their ground while they havent had a choice since they havent got any protection themselves.

The average Industrial Wage is 32k, as I've shown in a previous post the pension is worth 9,075 a year, bringing their total to 64,075 per annum.

32,000 x 2 = 64,000, hence on double the average wage.

I don't know if you know how taxes work, everyone pays them, not just Irish Rail employees. Everyone gets taxed.

Infini · 23-10-2015 10:48AM

devnull wrote: »

Half of the PSO that was cut from CIE is being restored from 2016.

Sorry if that doesn't suit your agenda but it's true.

Well heres the thing. How much of it is being given in funding exactly (havent seen how much from where its quoted. Also if they are restoing it then wouldnt that undermine the companys argument that theyre losing money as well aince they would then be basing their losses argument on previous years data. Would also mean they have capacity as well to give the increases.

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 10:49AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

No no no, it's greed when someone goes on strike, causing mayhem for all of their customers and demands more money from a cash haemorrhaging company while being on almost double the average Industrial Wage.

I have a feeling you don't like sharing much.

Again, it's not a 'company' in any sense more than a technicality - it's effectively a part of government, and should never be treated otherwise - there's a crapload of money available to be allocated for funding this service.

If you think you know who I work for, provide some evidence instead of coming out with that rhetorical garbage - I'm not going to acknowledge one way or the other just yet, as I want to see the depths you'll plumb that rhetorical tool.

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:49AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

This is just the 'public vs private' narrative bollocks - why should any public sector workers let their employer lie to them and screw them over, just out of some stupid sense of it being 'unfair' to the public if they defend themselves?

If your company pays you more, and this means they pay less to someone else, do you give a toss? Highly doubt it...

That's the governments problem, not the Irish Rail workers - their employer isn't holding up their side of the bargain, now they strike - wanting the government to successfully screw them over, is greed.

By your moral standard we might as well completely defund the public services to provide tax cuts to the private sector.

Again I did not mention privatisation or private companies.

For avoidance of doubt I have worked in both.

Hilly Bill · 23-10-2015 10:50AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

Let's not be disingenuous, Irish Rail staff are not paid pittance. After factoring in pension, salary and travel perks they are quote well paid, show me any other job where a person can complete 8-12 weeks of training and get 40k + a year.

There seems to be a disconnect with reality at Irish Rail.

Is this the pension that not all staff are paying into and they get when they retire with little in return? You cant add that to their weekly salary now can you? what travel perks add to their weekly salary?????????

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 10:51AM

devnull wrote: »

Where did I mention the word profit?

All I'm saying is that a company cannot keep running at a huge loss every year. I'm not expecting a company to make a profit but they should be aiming to get as close to breaking even as possible and run as efficiently as possible.

No, they should not. This is a public service, that can't prioritize social benefit, if it runs at break-even - Irish Rail should never run at break-even, it should always receive an excess of funding, as that is what is required for a good service.

Services cost money to operate - you can't 'magically' just balance out the costs vs the profits like that, either the quality of service has to suffer, or the costs (i.e. government funding) have to increase significantly.

Irish Rail will never operate like a normal company - it is effectively an arm of government, who are ultimately responsible for it.

Infini · 23-10-2015 10:52AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

The average Industrial Wage is 32k, as I've shown in a previous post the pension is worth 9,075 a year, bringing their total to 64,075 per annum.

32,000 x 2 = 64,000, hence on double the average wage.

I don't know if you know how taxes work, everyone pays them, not just Irish Rail employees. Everyone gets taxed.

Actually pensions are taken from existing wages theyre not added afterwards. The only ones I think your referring to are superannuation schemes that clerical and management get but not the drivers (also those schemes disallow you the state pension as well).Also If im not mistaken I thought the average wage was like 38k not 32k that seems far too low.

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:54AM

Infini2 wrote: »

Well heres the thing. How much of it is being given in funding exactly (havent seen how much from where its quoted.

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2015/budget-2016-sees-8-increase-dept-transport-tourism-sport-which-will-support

Also if they are restoing it then wouldnt that undermine the companys argument that theyre losing money

The company have accumulative losses over a number of years, just because you stop losing money, doesn't mean that the other years losses can be written off, they will effect the business in many ways, such as their ability to get credit and rates on various things which will be more expensive becaue of those accumulated losses.

Would also mean they have capacity as well to give the increases.

And that is why they are giving the increases, but that is all they can afford to give at the moment since many other sectors are also crying out for investment and there are many places that want to see increased spending, many people who have seen USC increased over the years that have crippled their finances.

The USC has crippled peoples finances just in the same way that it has effected money available for funding for the state, as conditions improve it is sensible to slowly reverse both cuts and taxes which were increased due to the crisis in a sensible way which keeps the country in a position where it is not spending more than it is bringing in again.

my friend · 23-10-2015 10:56AM

end of the road wrote: »

ah, another one. i think you will find extremist Regan's tactics ultimately failed as the air traffic controlers called his bluff by not returning to work. fair play to them

Wow, you have a bizarre way of looking at hard facts

When Reagan fired the ATC he won, he blew them out of the water, they lost their jobs

ATC has higher skill requirements than train shunting if ATC can be replaced then train drivers can too

Respect to minister O'Donohue for staying out of this fools protest, train drivers have zero support of the public and I don't want another penny of my hard earned taxes subsidising rail services that I never use

If train drivers want an increase let them and Irish rail earn it by growing their business together

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 10:56AM

devnull wrote: »

Half of the PSO that was cut from CIE is being restored from 2016.

Sorry if that doesn't suit your agenda but it's true.

Only half? Leaving still a 20% cut in funding, after they've been running up debts due to the lack of funding?

They should have the full 40+% returned to them, and then some! They need to repay the debts for shouldering the whole 40% burden so long.

devnull · 23-10-2015 10:58AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

No, they should not. This is a public service, that can't prioritize social benefit, if it runs at break-even - Irish Rail should never run at break-even, it should always receive an excess of funding, as that is what is required for a good service.

Tell me what happens if the whole country is run like that and every sector makes a loss every year? And the government spends vastly more than it brings in.

Clue: it happened in recent history.

Services cost money to operate - you can't 'magically' just balance out the costs vs the profits like that, either the quality of service has to suffer, or the costs (i.e. government funding) have to increase significantly.

Profit is an incorrect word used there, it is not counted as profit in accounting turns, it can be referedo as income, turnover but profit is what is left when costs have been taken away from what was brought in, which if is a minus figure is called a loss.

Some aspects of the quality of service are not directly related to funding, which is being increased form 2016.

KomradeBishop · 23-10-2015 11:01AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

While I have heard the begrudgery defence so many times before it's still as hilarious as ever. Thankfully I wasn't hit that badly by the recession. However I did see so many people struggle and actually take the hit, lets not get into a pro/against the bailout argument in this thread.

The fact is it happened, as a country everyone had to suck it up, people lost their jobs, reduced hours, deduced pay packets, people began living hand to mouth, you could say that everyone was in it together, even the Public Sector workers. Not Irish Rail staff though, oh no, they threw tantrums and whined and moaned and managed to get through it.

In 2014 when they received a paycut to reduce their gross financial burden on the state we've had 2 strikes since.

I would imagine most people's problems with it is that for the money we are not getting a good service, so rather than try and turn things around they simply ask for more money. As I've said in a previous post Irish Rail is the Greece of Irish semi-state's, almost like an out of control teenager who doesn't know the value of money.

They had the balls to defend themselves, and didn't get screwed as badly the rest of the country - simple as that - they should be a guide to the rest of the country, for what you can achieve if you actually defend yourself work-wise.

You know fúck all about Irish Rail's accounts - you don't know anything about what level of money is needed for a good service.

devnull · 23-10-2015 11:02AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Only half? Leaving still a 20% cut in funding, after they've been running up debts due to the lack of funding?

Every company in the land had to adjust the way they operated due to the financial crisis, Irish Rail should be no different in that like Lxflyer has pointed out.

They should have the full 40+% returned to them, and then some! They need to repay the debts for shouldering the whole 40% burden so long.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure that further increases will be looked at in time and in following budgets but I don't wish the country to go back to the reckless spending under Cowen and Ahern which caused this mess in the first place.

If you want to create another cycle of boom and bust, I don['t.

Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

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