Residents object to temporary halting site

flutered · 17-10-2015 10:22PM

end of the road wrote: »

what shouldn't be allowed? you would have chosen to get a mortage from a bank, of whatever amount. one of the risks of that is property values will go down. no its not fair. but unless we bann property values from going down under any circumstances, then why should 1 section be protected from having the value of their property going down while those who's property value went down due to economic factors are told tough?

quite wrong, if one buys anything in good faith, it is normal to expect the law of the land to protect it, not turning a blind eye

Littlehorny · 17-10-2015 10:28PM

The "temporary" halting in Carrickmines where these 10 ten people tragically lost there lives was there for ten years, now the council wants to move these people to another "temporary" site for six months. I really genuinely am not trying to be a smart arse here but what constitutes a traveller these days?

Spanish Eyes · 17-10-2015 10:29PM

There is no doubt that those in the media and politics and Traveller Rights quangoes, and all those who tell us what to think, would EVER allow a halting site at the end of their own road.

That is the feckin reality, and they can say what they like to the rest of us, and try to control the media and so on.

So, when someone tells me what to do, and when they actually do it themselves in their own back garden, is the day I will listen to them. Otherwise, shut the F up. So there.

17-10-2015 10:31PM

brooke 2 wrote: »

What a nightmare! I wonder how things are in that estate in Ballymote now?

Houses in that estate are on sale 15 to 25 grand. Says it all really.

17-10-2015 10:46PM

end of the road wrote: »

ah that old bull**** excuse. "if they did this or that people would or wouldn't do this or that"

its the same nonsense every time when it comes to travelers. its beyond boaring at this stage TBH. there is no justification for bigotry toards anyone. if you are of that type thats your fault, and no justification exists for it. if the travelers became a community with no crime what so ever it wouldn't make a difference to those who will use any excuse to tar them all with the same brush.

we have laws to tackle crime and anti-social behaviour. if the government can't be bothered to fund resource and staff those charged with enforcing said laws then thats up to the people to make it an issue come election time by raising the issue of lack of garda with those calling to the door. if the settled community do not have to do anything themselves to tackle its problems then why should anyone else be expected to? especially as we have systems in place to deal with issues, issues that exist in all communities where the same laws apply and are enforced equally to the best of the ability of the small amount of resources we have.

The thing is I've no bigotry towards any other group. I've friends from all walks of life from all over the world. I try to take everyone as they come. When I was younger I'd have the same attitude towards people from the travelling community but from my own life experience with them I can't do this anymore. Your right that's my problem.

As for saying if there are crime or anti social behaviour it's up to the Gardai to deal with it? That's a total cop out. If you have a brother or cousin acting the maggot are you seriously telling me you are your family won't get involved? If you have no respect for society then society will no respect for you.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2015 10:48PM

Wibbs wrote: »

And they'd be idiots. However it's not a very good comparison at all. "Black people" are not even close to a homogenous group, nor culture.

Well while that's true Wibbs the average person who discriminates against a certain group wouldn't know or want to know the subtleties of cultural differences between races. I'm aware of that but there has been many instances of nimbyism and racisim towards specific groups.

Whole heap of difference between a Londoner of African extraction compared to a member of Boko Harem. Travellers are and claim to be an ethnic group with a common culture.

As are West Indians and African Americans largely. Both of whom have experienced discrimination when moving into new areas.

And what is that culture, more what is the average settled persons perceptions and experiences of that culture? At best it's tacky weddings and 12 year olds twerking, going up the line it's destruction of the area they're living in and at worst it's pretty serious criminality. The latter is statistically sound with it.

Well unfortunately statistically African Americans don't have the best relationship with prison relative to whites either and this is used as a stick to beat them.

Does this mean all Travellers are to be painted with the same broad strokes? No, or it shouldn't , but it makes it damned difficult not to when the perception driven by a large section of their culture is an all too concrete one.

Yes they do have a bad perception and are over represented when it comes to criminality. As are other socially deprived groups. As per the results of the Standford prison experiment I think that if you label people as more likely to behave a certain way they'll live up to your expectations. There is criminality is the traveling community but I think greater integration between the communities will go some way towards solving that.

Now I'm not calling people a liar when they say this family may have had a rep. Saying that it's not just a traveler family, it's a family that have lost children, parents and friends. I think it's particularly base behavior by these residents to protest this after they've lost so many family members. They're victims and if anything the behavior of these residents is going to drive a bigger wedge between the traveler and settled community.

keano_afc · 17-10-2015 10:50PM

ted1 wrote: »

On shanganag has road heading towards shankill just before the commons road.

Here: Dropped pin
near Shanganagh Rd, Dublin
https://goo.gl/maps/pGLskgrBvVM2

This site has been abandoned for years. Drove by it on Friday and there were builders everywhere, fixing the houses and definitely getting it ready for living in.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2015 10:54PM

6781 wrote: »

Houses in that estate are on sale 15 to 25 grand. Says it all really.

Depends what you mean by "it all". From the American Sociology journal:

I assess the magnitude and motivations of racial aversion by conducting a hedonic price analysis of geocoded data from the Panel Study of Income Dynamics. I find clear evidence of lower property values in neighborhoods with relatively high proportions of black residents

"It all" could refer to discrimination towards members of a particular ethnic group.

JP Liz V1 · 17-10-2015 11:02PM

Where are the residents living at the moment, could the council not offer them houses, I would think they would not want to live in a site again after the fire, perhaps safer in a house

Spanish Eyes · 17-10-2015 11:02PM

This is the explanation from Pavee Point...

Read it and weep.

http://www.thejournal.ie/vee-point-why-these-7-traveller-myths-are-untrue-849182-Mar2013/

Tigger · 17-10-2015 11:08PM

6781 wrote: »

Houses in that estate are on sale 15 to 25 grand. Says it all really.

ghost estate

walshyn93 · 17-10-2015 11:12PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "it all". From the American Sociology journal:

"It all" could refer to discrimination towards members of a particular ethnic group.

You don't abandon your house unless it's thoroughly unliveable and you can't sell it. Also the fact that the travellers saw no problem squatting in the abandoned houses indicates a lack of regard for the law that would have made them unpleasant neighbours.

I also don't see how the point you're making with regards to black people in America has any reflection on the Irish situation.

Irish people don't look at the racial demographics of an area when deciding where to live because we don't have the same history as America. Due to the size of the country, people use anecdotal evidence to make their decision on where to live.

walshyn93 · 17-10-2015 11:13PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

This is the explanation from Pavee Point...

Read it and weep.

http://www.thejournal.ie/vee-point-why-these-7-traveller-myths-are-untrue-849182-Mar2013/

I see the URL says 7 myths but the headline says 6. They must have been caught telling porkies and edited accordingly.

17-10-2015 11:15PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "it all". From the American Sociology journal:

"It all" could refer to discrimination towards members of a particular ethnic group.

If I haven't made it clear I do discriminate against them. I make no bones about that. Unfortunately I can't change my life experience dealing with this community. But I hope something will happen that will change my outlook.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2015 11:18PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

You don't abandon your house unless it's thoroughly unliveable and you can't sell it. Also the fact that the travellers saw no problem squatting in the abandoned houses indicates a lack of regard for the law that would have made them unpleasant neighbours.

I also don't see how the point you're making with regards to black people in America has any reflection on the Irish situation.

Irish people don't look at the racial demographics of an area when deciding where to live because we don't have the same history as America. Due to the size of the country, people use anecdotal evidence to make their decision on where to live.

I'm referring to it because the exact same dialogue comes from bigots in relation to black people and property prices.

end of the road · 17-10-2015 11:19PM

JustTheOne wrote: »

Vincent Browne is the perfect example of the do gooder clueless upper class moron with regards this subject.

Roaring and mouthing last week about cuts to traveller funding and how the residents are a disgrace.

Then drives home to his nice mansion in dalkey or wherever totally isolated from any real life experience that people like here have experienced.

I'm sick of this high horse attitude.

i'm sorry he didn't say whatever you wanted to hear but thats not his fault. he spoke the truth

An Claidheamh wrote: »

that incompetent Mountjoy warden John Lonergan

have you any evidence John Lonergan was incompetent during his time running mountjoy? and no, not running the prison the way you would have liked doesn't count as an answer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

all those who tell us what to think

ireland wouldn't have a clue about being "told what to think" we have huge freedom of speech, all be it its not full freedom of speech. we wouldn't have a clue about living somewhere with no freedom of speech

gandalf · 17-10-2015 11:19PM

Based on an awful lot of peoples experiences halting sites are an epicentre of anti-social behaviour, criminal activity and environmental pollution.

The residents of Rockville Drive have stated that they are aware of these kind of issues from the individuals that the council are attempting to force into the green field site at the end of their cul-de-sac.

Leaving aside the effect on the values of their properties as it seems to be a bone of contention for some of the more left leaning persons on this thread. There is a serious potential change to the quality of life for the residents of this small road. Why should they have to take this risk.

I sympathise with the people who are still grieving but from reports they are now being housed under the normal emergency housing mechanism. They have a promise on permanent replacement accommodation. It is being worked on now (apparently from others reports on here). This is a lot more than a non traveller could expect going through emergency housing mechanisms at the moment.

On the wider scale what does Traveller culture actually represent? I've checked Pavee Points website and they have nothing of any real substance about the actual culture that everyone keeps saying they are trying to protect. Looking at their website it appears that Traveller culture is to act the victim and to continually have your hand open for another handout from the state.

What positives does Traveller culture deliver to Irish Society? Does the travelling community actually deliver anything positive to Ireland at all?

All the exceptions made for Travellers does not seem to be improving their lot? If that's the case maybe it's time to stop making exceptions and to tell them that they have to use the mechanisms that every other person in the state has to use.

The world has moved on massively in the last fifty years and everyone has had to adjust to it? I think the travelling community needs to take a very close look at a culture that seems to condemn it's members to lower levels of education, higher participation in criminality, lower lifespans. Not dealing with these issues from within means that there is of course no trust from wider society as a whole in the Traveller community.

walshyn93 · 17-10-2015 11:24PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm referring to it because the exact same dialogue comes from bigots in relation to black people and property prices.

But against black people it would be prejudice because there are millions of black people. Against travellers it's more of a post-judice. We've seen their culture, been victimised by it and don't like it. Continuing to remind yourself that "they're not all bad" begins to feel like delusion after a while.

They're not all bad, but enough of them are to make that feel like a hollow statement.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2015 11:27PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

But against black people it would be prejudice because there are millions of black people. Against travellers it's more of a post-judice. We've seen their culture, been victimised by it and don't like it. Continuing to remind yourself that "they're not all bad" begins to feel like delusion after a while.

They're not all bad, but enough of them are to make that feel like a hollow statement.

Black people are over represented on the wrong side of the criminal justice system also. My contention is keep discrimnating against travelers, west Indians in London, African Americans in America then this behavior will continue.

La Fenetre · 17-10-2015 11:27PM

Over the years, halting sites have been extremely poorly located, designed and maintained by local authorities, this goes a long way towards the current problems.

You can hardly blame people for not trusting local authorities any more.

end of the road · 17-10-2015 11:47PM

gandalf wrote: »

The residents of Rockville Drive have stated that they are aware of these kind of issues from the individuals that the council are attempting to force into the green field site at the end of their cul-de-sac.

so they claim, doesn't mean they are telling the truth. the council weren't trying to force anyone or anything, they were trying to use one of their sites which is their right.

gandalf wrote: »

Leaving aside the effect on the values of their properties as it seems to be a bone of contention for some of the more left leaning persons on this thread.

its not a bone of contention, its irrelevant as property values can go down as well as up. others have had to deal with their property values going down, its an unfortunate risk of the gamble of property.

gandalf wrote: »

There is a serious potential change to the quality of life for the residents of this small road. Why should they have to take this risk.

because they signed up to move in beside a council owned site when they bought their properties. the council have a right to use that site and nobody has the right to block them. don't buy a house beside a council site.

gandalf wrote: »

This is a lot more than a non traveller could expect going through emergency housing mechanisms at the moment.

well, it is an exceptional situation.

gandalf wrote: »

they have to use the mechanisms that every other person in the state has to use.

they all ready have to use them

gandalf wrote: »

Not dealing with these issues from within means that there is of course no trust from wider society as a whole in the Traveller community.

wider society just use those issues as an excuse to bash them, thats all. nothing the community itself can do really, changes are coming very slow, it just takes time. still no excuse for people to use whatever to discriminate against them

walshyn93 wrote: »

But against black people it would be prejudice because there are millions of black people. Against travellers it's more of a post-judice. We've seen their culture, been victimised by it and don't like it. Continuing to remind yourself that "they're not all bad" begins to feel like delusion after a while.

They're not all bad, but enough of them are to make that feel like a hollow statement.

bigotry is bigotry whoever its directed toards. there is no excuse or justification for it, its up to the bigot to change.

walshyn93 · 17-10-2015 11:49PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Black people are over represented on the wrong side of the criminal justice system also. My contention is keep discrimnating against travelers, west Indians in London, African Americans in America then this behavior will continue.

I agree it's a vicious cycle. But not discriminating against them is a good way to get victimised. These residents are acting in their own rational self-interest.

walshyn93 · 17-10-2015 11:51PM

end of the road wrote: »

bigotry is bigotry whoever its directed toards. there is no excuse or justification for it, its up to the bigot to change.

If I change my opinion of travellers, no ones life improves. If I maintain a rational distrust, I reduce my risk of being the victim of a crime.

Your resorting to inflammatory language to make your point is very telling. You can tell someone they're a bigot, but you can't very well tell them why they shouldn't be.

Kermit.de.frog · 18-10-2015 12:01AM

end of the road wrote: »

bigotry is bigotry whoever its directed toards. there is no excuse or justification for it, its up to the bigot to change.

This is absolute nonsense. Criminality and anti social behaviour as well as dumping rubbish is something Travellers have to answer for. Nothing to do with bigotry. Everything to do with reputation.

Can't cry bigotry in the face of the overwhelming evidence that it is Travellers themselves that have "earned" (for want of a better word) their reputation.

Bebopclown · 18-10-2015 01:41AM

end of the road wrote: »

so they claim, doesn't mean they are telling the truth.

Believe me, they're telling the truth.

18-10-2015 02:12AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I've yet to see antisocial forestry so I don't think equating forrestry with a halting site right in this case.

.

Well that point sailed over your head. The issue was about planning and notification. The clue was in the "without notification" half of the sentence!

18-10-2015 03:03AM

Wolf Hanssen wrote: »

Nobody likes bad eggs, especially when someone holds you down, tells you to shut up and forces them in your mouth...

Is that what they were up to, sticking eggs in peoples mouths?

Oh well that entitles people to block access to property they don't own alright. Why didn't someone say this egg in mouth thing earlier?

Barry Badrinath · 18-10-2015 03:10AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is that what they were up to, sticking eggs in peoples mouths?

Oh well that entitles people to block access to property they don't own alright. Why didn't someone say this egg in mouth thing earlier?

What an idiotic post.

You must agree with the rest of my post since you dont seem to have countered it. Instead, you have chosen the silly route to make a point. A weak one at that.

Yes, residents blocked access to Council property. Why would you imagine they done that now?

Just so i know you understand the situation. Do you mind giving me 3 brief points from both sides of the argument.

Please stick to facts and not opinions.

18-10-2015 03:16AM

Wolf Hanssen wrote: »

What an idiotic post.

You must agree with the rest of my post since you dont seem to have countered it. Instead, you have chosen the silly route to make a point. A weak one at that.

Yes, residents blocked access to Council property. Why would you imagine they done that now?

Just so i know you understand the situation. Do you mind giving me 3 brief points from both sides of the argument.

Please stick to facts and not opinions.

Oh dear.

You're getting annoyed.

Yeah, let's stick to the facts. People blocked access to land they don't own. Now, you knowing that the access is for bad people is laughably inane, because the law of private property is not actually trumped by whether the people who may occupy the land are deemed good or bad on the www. Of course they need not be happy with it, I wouldn't be happy if a football stadium or a mosque or a MacDonalds went up next to me...but once it was legal all I can do is cry into my cornflakes, and if I blocked bulldozers I'd actually expect to get a thump from a Garda baton.

mucksavage1985 · 18-10-2015 06:05AM

Just imagine living beside a halting site:
1: they seem to be able to make noise anywhere they got go. Hulla hulls hulla boss. Any copper boss. Shouting roaring.
2: they light fires ( burning pvc off copper wires which can cause fires to spread) anyone else would get fined for burning illegally.
3. They litter every where. They don't believe in paying for a bin service. They dump at will anywhere.
4. They can be very bullish and forceful. Poor elderly people are living in fear of them
5. Their relations and friends are probably worse than they are and might as well rob while they visit.
6. They see everything. It comes as a skill because they do f.ck all else
7. If you had cattle in your house they would be easier manage.

I hope that the residents don't back down. I live close to a halting site. Never had problems until it was built. They are unruly animals. I pity anyone that is inflicted with their presence.

Residents object to temporary halting site

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