Couple with six children killed in Palestine

Dan_Solo · 10-10-2015 8:16pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Security_Forces

So?
Palestine is not a state (according to Israel) so how can they have state security forces? They are all by Isreal's own definition civilians.

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:18pm

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

If Israel wants a buffer zone, fine. Let them have a buffer zone inside Israel, not by stealing other people's land.

And please stop lying in this thread, Israel at its thinnest is 15km, but for some reason you lie about this twice, reducing the figure by over 50%.

The 15km was my mistake.

Zebra3 wrote: »

You also seem to be completely unbothered by the fact that the Palestinian Territories have been cut in two due to the effects of Zionist terrorism and ethnic cleansing.

This was a discussion about strategic depth from an Israeli viewpoint, since another poster disputed that Israel didn't need strategic depth.

"Zionist terrorism and ethnic cleansing" Why do you people keep throwing around the word "Zionist" as if it's a buzzword?

Zebra3 wrote: »

"I don't agree with the settlements, but...." :rolleyes:

"I don't agree with the murder of innocents in front of their own child, but...."
:rolleyes:

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:20pm

No

Nodin wrote: »

Given the denial of recourse to law to the Palestinians, its a bit much to be expecting them to be playing by the "rules" as dictated by Israel. This why as a general rule its best to settle things as peaceably as possible.

Or, they could, you know, play by international rules?

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:21pm

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

Where under international law does it say that these criminals are protected?

And they weren't murdered. They were criminals taking part in a criminal military operation who were killed by those resisting the occupation and colonisation of their land.

International law disagrees with you, but don't let that get in the way of your opinion.

Nodin · 10-10-2015 8:22pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Or, they could, you know, play by international rules?

Why? They aren't allowed recourse to them. Israel doesn't even apply the Geneva convention to the occupied territories.

tayto lover · 10-10-2015 8:24pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Then why isn't the Republic openly ethnically cleansing Unionists from Northern Ireland? Oh, that's right, because they're civilians and that is amoral, evil, and a nonsensical way to think. Not even the IRA believed in ethnically cleansing every Protestant from the North.

The " ethnically cleansing " is being done by the Israelis surely. They have the huge army and the equipment, the Palestinians have home-made rubbish.

I take it you also have no objections to your neighbour taking over your property and planting their crops in your nice garden.

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:29pm

No

tayto lover wrote: »

The " ethnically cleansing " is being done by the Israelis surely. They have the huge army and the equipment, the Palestinians have home-made rubbish.

If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse the region, they're sure doing a piss poor job of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Total population
1,658,000
Over 278,000 in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights (2012)
20.7% of Israeli population[1][2]

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:31pm

No

Nodin wrote: »

Why? They aren't allowed recourse to them. Israel doesn't even apply the Geneva convention to the occupied territories.

So, the answer is to target parents in front of their children, or blow up school buses? They could, oh I don't know, actually target the military rather than children in accordance with international law?

KingBrian2 · 10-10-2015 8:31pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I don't agree with the settlements, but Israel requires a buffer zone (akin to when they took over the Golan Heights and the Sinai)

They withdrew from the Sinai they never relinquished control of the Golan Heights and to this day they continue to subject the inhabitants of that land to hell on earth. All nations recognise that this land is annexed from Syria so the day they start negotiating with Damascus the sooner the people who are being killed needlessly in both Israel and Palestine will end.

RustyNut · 10-10-2015 8:31pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Or, they could, you know, play by international rules?

Could you post a link to these "international rules"?

Nodin · 10-10-2015 8:34pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse the region, they're sure doing a piss poor job of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

And what about the areas of the West Bank that have been built on? The campaign to drive Palestinians from Arab East Jerusalem? (which, unlike the West Bank, has been annexed in Israeli law)
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/revocation_of_residency

http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/social_security

http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/discriminating_policy

RustyNut · 10-10-2015 8:34pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

So, the answer is to target parents in front of their children, or blow up school buses? They could, oh I don't know, actually target the military rather than children in accordance with international law?

What would international law say about this do you think?

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:35pm

No

KingBrian2 wrote: »

They withdrew from the Sinai they never relinquished control of the Golan Heights and to this day they continue to subject the inhabitants of that land to hell on earth. All nations recognise that this land is annexed from Syria so the day they start negotiating with Damascus the sooner the people who are being killed needlessly in both Israel and Palestine will end.

Maybe because that's where Syria invaded them from, and Syria has refused to sign a peace treaty with Israel (whereas Egypt has)? I don't know, but that seems like a load of waffle on your part.

Nodin · 10-10-2015 8:36pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

So, the answer is to target parents in front of their children, or blow up school buses? They could, oh I don't know, actually target the military rather than children in accordance with international law?

While I don't condone the targeting of children, given the number of Palestinian children that were killed during that period, its unsurprising that some decided to level the suffering somewhat.

Settlers, by their very raison d'etre, are legitmate targets, particularily now, as things become more desperate.

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:37pm

No

RustyNut wrote: »

What would international law say about this do you think?

Where in the feck have I supported Israel killing innocents? This entire argument has stemmed from people saying that it's fine for the Palestinians to murder innocents since they're "legitimate military targets".

Zebra3 · 10-10-2015 8:38pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

"I don't agree with the murder of innocents in front of their own child, but...."
:rolleyes:

No innocent people were killed. Two criminals under international law were killed. Two adults who chose to be plain clothes wearing operatives in Israel's war machine. Please stop claiming those people were innocents, it's insulting to those who are genuinely victims of war.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

International law disagrees with you, but don't let that get in the way of your opinion.

Go on then, show us where international law protects criminals who are part of an occupation.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse the region, they're sure doing a piss poor job of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

So why does Israel engage in house demolitions then? Why has destroyed whole villages and planted forests over them?

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:38pm

No

Nodin wrote: »

And what about the areas of the West Bank that have been built on? The campaign to drive Palestinians from Arab East Jerusalem? (which, unlike the West Bank, has been annexed in Israeli law)

I have already expressed my disdain for settlers. But, for the umpteenth time, that doesn't mean you can murder them in front of their children.

Zebra3 · 10-10-2015 8:41pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I have already expressed my disdain for settlers. But, for the umpteenth time, that doesn't mean you can murder them in front of their children.

They weren't murdered, they were killed.

Why don't you blame these criminals for being part of a military operation that is destroying Palestinians' homeland?

They put themselves and their children on the frontline. No Palestinians asked them to do so.

RustyNut · 10-10-2015 8:41pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Where in the feck have I supported Israel killing innocents? This entire argument has stemmed from people saying that it's fine for the Palestinians to murder innocents since they're "legitimate military targets".

They are not innocents, they are colonizers and their victims are entitled to resist that colonization by all means possible.

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:42pm

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

No innocent people were killed. Two criminals under innocent law were killed. Two adults who chose to be plain clothes wearing operatives in Israel's war machine. Please stop claiming those people were innocents, it's insulting to those who are genuinely victims of war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian

A civilian under the laws of war (also known as international humanitarian law) is a person who is not a legitimate member of the armed forces to a conflict. This is a slightly different from a non-combatant, because some non-combatants are not civilians (for example military chaplains attached to the armed forces), and some civilians, such as mercenaries, are unprivileged combatants.

Under international law civilians in the territories of a Party to an armed conflict are entitled to certain privileges under the customary laws of war and international conventions such as the Fourth Geneva Convention. The privileges that they enjoy under international law depends on whether the conflict is an internal one (a civil war) or an international one.

Once again, international law disagrees with you. Sorry if that gets in the way of your opinion.

end of the road · 10-10-2015 8:43pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

This was a discussion about strategic depth from an Israeli viewpoint, since another poster disputed that Israel didn't need strategic depth.

they didn't and don't need strategic anything. they got land in 1948. thats their land. it wasn't enough so they stole more and continue to steal, raping and slaughtering all the way

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Or, they could, you know, play by international rules?

oh yeah i agree israel should play by international rules but they won't. and why would they when they have the bastian of freedom and democracy helping them all the way

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:44pm

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

They weren't murdered, they were killed.

Why don't you blame these criminals for being part of a military operation that is destroying Palestinians' homeland?

That's not how it works.

Zebra3 wrote: »

They put themselves and their children on the frontline. No Palestinians asked them to do so.

The Palestinians did when they invaded Israel. Twice.

IrishTrajan · 10-10-2015 8:44pm

No

RustyNut wrote: »

They are not innocents, they are colonizers and their victims are entitled to resist that colonization by all means possible.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but you're wrong, and international law disagrees with you.

Zebra3 · 10-10-2015 8:46pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian

Once again, international law disagrees with you. Sorry if that gets in the way of your opinion.

But you quoted stuff about a war. It is an occupation. Which state is Israel at war with?

RustyNut · 10-10-2015 8:47pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but you're wrong, and international law disagrees with you.

What does international law say about the occupation/colonization?

Zebra3 · 10-10-2015 9:00pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

That's not how it works.

The Palestinians did when they invaded Israel. Twice.

Why are you so afraid to point out that those scumbags shouldn't have been living on stolen land and shouldn't have been bringing their family up there?

end of the road · 10-10-2015 9:22pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

That's not how it works.

The Palestinians did when they invaded Israel. Twice.

the palestinians never invaded israel

KingBrian2 · 10-10-2015 9:23pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Maybe because that's where Syria invaded them from, and Syria has refused to sign a peace treaty with Israel (whereas Egypt has)? I don't know, but that seems like a load of waffle on your part.

Oh give me a break the peace deal with Egypt was and is always built on wobble concessions made by them. None of the other Arab states supported that. It granted the Israeli's everything they wanted and didn't even recognise the Palestinian claims to statehood. It took subsequent long discussions and peace initiatives to get Arafat to the UN general assemble.

I would go so far as to say it was a truce or less than that legitimising the status quo. It gave Israel plenty of time to expand into neighbouring West Bank. Arabs have to be included in the political process not excommunicated dismissed and forced to take up stones and Molotov cocktails to defend themselves.

Nodin · 10-10-2015 10:46pm

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I have already expressed my disdain for settlers. But, for the umpteenth time, that doesn't mean you can murder them in front of their children.

Given there's no legal way to deal with them, what would you suggest?

justanotherone · 11-10-2015 1:04pm

Nodin wrote: »

Given there's no legal way to deal with them, what would you suggest?

I'm more concerned with your apparent solution.

It seems, well, "final".

Couple with six children killed in Palestine

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