Couple with six children killed in Palestine

davmol

CruelCoin wrote: »

The IDF who did the forcible ejections are military targets, but the dude who moves in and plonks his arse on a sofa is not. Since when are settlers military personel?

Settlers are living on STOLEN land and occupying territory designated as Palestinian under the oslo accord agreed by ALL parties including Israel.

Under international law Palestinians are allowed resist by any measures necessary to remove the occupier.

wes

speedboatchase wrote: »

Hamas has taken responsibility and said they were co-ordinated.

They did?

Israeli authorities aren't even making that claim:

Deaths in escalating Israeli-Palestinian violence

--SNIP--
'Lone-wolf attacks'

Israeli authorities are now to investigate whether there was a connection between the two deadly assaults in Jerusalem.

Even before the latest violence, security had been stepped up in Israel, with at least 1,500 reservist police called in to prop up securities in streets and at bus stations.

Authorities have categorised the stabbings as "lone-wolf" attacks - random attacks without a central command structure.
--SNIP--

Let be honest here, if Israel had any proof that Hamas were behind this, we would know about it.

RustyNut

CruelCoin wrote: »

Well, thats a horrible story. But it doesn't adress the point.

The origional claim was that israel " deliberately blast playing children to pieces in Gaza with the most sophisticated weaponry on earth?"

A beach was then mentioned. Now, both of those clearly refer to bombs. The incident with this girl is not the same as actively targeting kids with advanced weaponry.

Edit: That particular soldier should be jailed, before anyone tries to claim i support him.

If I have you right you are not disputing the fact that the idf deliberately target kids its just the weaponry that they use to do it?

Nodin

speedboatchase wrote: »

Today's attacks were not spontaneous. Hamas has taken responsibility and said they were co-ordinated..

Attacks have happened previous to today.

speedboatchase wrote: »

Also, there's nothing 'spontaneous' about walking around with a knife on your person.

I was referring to the decision of the individual.

Nodin

CruelCoin wrote: »

The IDF who did the forcible ejections are military targets, but the dude who moves in and plonks his arse on a sofa is not. Since when are settlers military personel?

They essentially are, they act as advisors to military units and are frequently armed. If you want to get rid of the colony, it would be logic to target the colonists.

Have you any comment on these few incidents?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97360984&postcount=531

RustyNut

CruelCoin wrote: »

Edit: That particular soldier should be jailed, before anyone tries to claim i support him.

And in any civilized non apartheid country he would.

speedboatchase

No

wes wrote: »

They did?

Israeli authorities aren't even making that claim:

Sorry, was based on a tweet by Haaretz columnist Noga Tarnopolsky. She was since asked where this info was from and replied 'presser'. No update on that since.

Zebra3

justanotherone wrote: »

... who themselves took it from ...

... who themselves took it from ...

... who themselves took it from ...

the past can't be changed, Europe cannot take back all the people from the US and Australia,

Africa will not take back all the people in Europe

the solution is somehow to live together, not justifying bloodlettng

The ethnic cleansing by Zionists is ongoing, not some historical event.

CruelCoin wrote: »

You mean the one they inhabited before that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel#/media/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg

There was little or no connection between the British people who decided they wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestine and the small groups of those of the jewish faith who lived in some villages in that area 2,000 years ago.

wes

CruelCoin wrote: »

You mean the one they inhabited before that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel#/media/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg

Go back far enough and every single person on the planet can trace there ancestry back to Africa. I some how doubt that the locals would welcome any of us, setting up a state using that rationale for some reason.

CruelCoin

No

Nodin wrote: »

They essentially are, they act as advisors to military units and are frequently armed. If you want to get rid of the colony, it would be logic to target the colonists.

Have you any comment on these few incidents?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97360984&postcount=531

None of them seem to give any other details other than the actions of the israelies. I'm not going to guess based on incomplete information.

The sniper could have missidentified a target, the 13yr old could have been waving a pistol, etc etc. But the story involving the soldier emptying the mag was much more clear-cut.

wes

CruelCoin wrote: »

Everyone from the turks, to the palestines, the persians, the israelies, etc. They can all claim it as their homeland. There is no correct answer to the question of who has more right to live there, so its rich of people to claim "illegal occupation".

UN Resolution 242 is the basis of the claim of the illegality of the Israel claims on the occupied territories. Its an illegal occupation on that basis. To put illegal occupation in quote is what is a bit rich. The occupation is illegal, on the basis of UN resolution 242, and various other international laws such as the Geneva convention in regards to there settlements:

What does the law say about the establishment of settlements in occupied territory?

Prohibited actions include forcibly transferring protected persons from the occupied territories to the territory of the occupying power.

It is unlawful under the Fourth Geneva Convention for an occupying power to transfer parts of its own population into the territory it occupies. This means that international humanitarian law prohibits the establishment of settlements, as these are a form of population transfer into occupied territory. Any measure designed to expand or consolidate settlements is also illegal. Confiscation of land to build or expand settlements is similarly prohibited.

Nodin

CruelCoin wrote: »

None of them seem to give any other details other than the actions of the israelies. I'm not going to guess based on incomplete information.

The sniper could have missidentified a target, the 13yr old could have been waving a pistol, etc etc. But the story involving the soldier emptying the mag was much more clear-cut.

Yeah, and doubtless if I wasted my time with a thousand more examples I'd get the same response. Sad.

It's gas how self proclaimed settlers are presumed innocent, but young kidsb at home or school have to prove theirs.

CruelCoin

No

Nodin wrote: »

Yeah, and doubtless if I wasted my time with a thousand more examples I'd get the same response. Sad.

It's gas how self proclaimed settlers are presumed innocent, but young kidsb at home or school have to prove theirs.

Then give me examples that don't just paint the profile of "ebil jew".
Give me articles that clearly state what both parties were doing, and not only stating that someone got shot, but why they got shot.

Now, we can play the newspaper links game all day, but its going a bit outside the topic of the thread.
Yes, they should be afraid. Why is an entirely seperate unsavoury topic.

Nodin

CruelCoin wrote: »

Then give me examples that don't just paint the profile of "ebil jew"..

Sorry, but where or when was "Jew" brought into it?

CruelCoin wrote: »

Give me articles that clearly state what both parties were doing, and not only stating that someone got shot, but why they got shot.

Well some were going to school, some were sitting in a school classroom, some where hanging out the washing.....

Why have settlers the presumption of innocence but young children have to prove theirs?

CruelCoin

No

wes wrote: »

UN Resolution 242 is the basis of the claim of the illegality of the Israel claims on the occupied territories. Its an illegal occupation on that basis. To put illegal occupation in quote is what is a bit rich. The occupation is illegal, on the basis of UN resolution 242, and various other international laws such as the Geneva convention in regards to there settlements:

Fair enough, cheers for the clarification.

Zebra3

Nodin wrote: »

Why have settlers the presumption of innocence but young children have to prove theirs?

Because that's what happens in a vile apartheid style, colonial state.

end of the road

CruelCoin wrote: »

I have not used language of that flavour in any of my posts in this thread.

Nobody is denying that they dropped those bombs, we all know they did.
But i have yet to see valid proof, that they a: knew they were kids, and b: they then said "kill those kids".
Untill you can provide proof for both those statements, you cannot claim they deliberately targeted and killed those kids.

Also, its not murder. If a gunner on an artillery piece fire at an enemy, then shell then strays (flaw in the casing or something) and hits a house and kills civilians, then is that murder? Its not. Its collateral damage, which happens in all wars. "Murder" is when you deliberately and illegally kill another person. The deaths were not deliberate, hence not murder.

no such thing as collateral damage. if civilians are killed its murder. the IDF knew they were kids so deliberately killed them, the country has a history of it so that is plenty of proof it is the truth.

davmol

Cruel coin-you ve run out of arguments and have no other ammo.Youve resorted to bringing up the old basis that all Zionists use ie the old anti Semitism card,that anyone who disagrees with israels slaughter of innocent women and children are all racists.This was painted when you accused Nodin of using the Evil jew reference when it was never used.

What is stopping you from admitting that Israel is wrong on every side here?Maybe a deep hatred of the old mussies/arabs? Bear in mind there are many Christian Palestinians.

end of the road

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe some of the Israeli leaders statements over the years would convince you that it just might have been deliberate --

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php#axzz3oRSsLdlg


This one in particular struck me -

24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Or this one -
25. "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

that quote by Maurice Samuels reminds me of stuff thrown out by a certain group. now remind me who it is again? oh yes, thats right. isis

end of the road

CruelCoin wrote: »

The IDF who did the forcible ejections are military targets, but the dude who moves in and plonks his arse on a sofa is not. Since when are settlers military personel?

settlers who steal people's homes and land are military targets. they deliberately move into an area they know doesn't belong to them or their country but do so anyway, and are then shocked when the legitimate population react.

RustyNut

CruelCoin wrote: »

The IDF who did the forcible ejections are military targets, but the dude who moves in and plonks his arse on a sofa is not. Since when are settlers military personel?

So if someone robs my daughters phone while she is walking down Grafton street and then sells it to someone, Is the scumbag that buys the phone knowing it to be stolen not as guilty of being a criminal as the scummer that stole it?

end of the road

CruelCoin wrote: »

Then give me examples that don't just paint the profile of "ebil jew".
Give me articles that clearly state what both parties were doing, and not only stating that someone got shot, but why they got shot.

Now, we can play the newspaper links game all day, but its going a bit outside the topic of the thread.
Yes, they should be afraid. Why is an entirely seperate unsavoury topic.

he has given you such articles. they just don't tell you what you want to hear

Dan_Solo

speedboatchase wrote: »

It may have been deliberate - your or I will never know 100% - but let's not pretend that any killing or attempted murder from Hamas was ever deemed an 'accident'. They are open about being indiscriminate in targeting all Jews.

Er, I think you'll find in the case in question on this thread that the Palestinians didn't kill any children and quite deliberately avoided doing so. So your "all Jews" is just plain false.
However yes, we do have evidence of Israel deliberately killing children, who they confirmed were visually sighted throughout the attack.

Dan_Solo

CruelCoin wrote: »

Then give me examples that don't just paint the profile of "ebil jew".

You're new to this Zionist PR lark then? Don't you know "call the anti-Zionists anti-Semites" line kinda ran out of steam about 1950?
I always find it entertaining that the very first people in every thread about Israel to conflate Zionism and the Jewish race are Zionists, not the supposed anti-Semites then are ineptly trying to smear.

speedboatchase

No

RustyNut wrote: »

So if someone robs my daughters phone while she is walking down Grafton street and then sells it to someone, Is the scumbag that buys the phone knowing it to be stolen not as guilty of being a criminal as the scummer that stole it?

Yeah, stab that guy and probably get shot at in the process. Smart move.

speedboatchase

No

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Er, I think you'll find in the case in question on this thread that the Palestinians didn't kill any children and quite deliberately avoided doing so. So your "all Jews" is just plain false.
However yes, we do have evidence of Israel deliberately killing children, who they confirmed were visually sighted throughout the attack.

My point is that the recent stabbing attacks are unapologetically indiscriminate.

Nodin

speedboatchase wrote: »

My point is that the recent stabbing attacks are unapologetically indiscriminate.

Undirected rage and desperation tend to be like that.

Nodin

speedboatchase wrote: »

Yeah, stab that guy and probably get shot at in the process. Smart move.

Other than sneering at what they did, you might try to understand the conditions that pushed them to do it.

CruelCoin

No

davmol wrote: »

Cruel coin-you ve run out of arguments and have no other ammo.Youve resorted to bringing up the old basis that all Zionists use ie the old anti Semitism card,that anyone who disagrees with israels slaughter of innocent women and children are all racists.This was painted when you accused Nodin of using the Evil jew reference when it was never used.

What is stopping you from admitting that Israel is wrong on every side here?

Maybe a deep hatred of the old mussies/arabs? Bear in mind there are many Christian Palestinians.

I'll admit nothing as i do not believe they are wrong on every side. They're not perfect either though.
"mussie" hatred has nothing to do with it, and the inference of rascism is insulting, kindly stop.
I am atheist, and i count among my friends a muslim (current partners ex-husband), christians, etc. Whatever brand of sky-wizard you adhere to, i could care less.

wes

speedboatchase wrote: »

My point is that the recent stabbing attacks are unapologetically indiscriminate.

Yes, on both sides:

Israel violence: Israeli stabs Jewish man 'mistaken for Arab' at Ikea in Kiryat Ata