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Couple with six children killed in Palestine

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  • Options
    #392
    sReq | uTeK
    Registered Users Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭sReq | uTeK


    They are all mental the lot of them.


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    #393
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    You know like 15% of Israel's population are Arabs/Palestinians, right? This isn't some religious crusade by the Israelis. Palestine started both wars, it's not like Israel went "jeez, who can we beat up today".
    That's what one side would have you believe, just like some British would claim that Ireland started the conflicts against them. Don't try to oversimplify it, it's not a good look.


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    #394
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Also, you are aware that it was Israel who declared war first in 1967, right?

    Syria is still technically at war with Israel so that conflict never ended and we still have Israeli troops possessing the Golan Heights which is internationally recognised as Syrian territory so Israel have a lot to do to repair their tattered international reputation along with their Arab neighbours of Egypt, Syria and Jordon.


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    #395
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    justanotherone wrote: »
    Billy86, it is quite clear you were being sarcastic.

    On the other hand, some posters seem not just ambivilent about murder of people with different political beliefs, they appear at times almost sympathetic to the act of murder.

    And again, my stance is I may not agree with murdering the two of them, but I can fully understand the reasoning as to why their murderers did so.


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    #396
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Syria is still technically at war with Israel so that conflict never ended and we still have Israeli troops possessing the Golan Heights which is internationally recognised as Syrian territory so Israel have a lot to do to repair their tattered international reputation along with their Arab neighbours of Egypt, Syria and Jordon.

    Right, so you admit that Israel is currently occupying territory which the international community overwhelmingly condemns them for occupying, and yet you're still defending them?


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    #397
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Because displacing innocent civilians even from land captured during war is illegal under international law. If the Israelis want to be treated like a civilised country and not as a savage country, they have to obey the aforementioned.

    I guess Russia will have to give Konigsberg back to the Germans and Viipuri back to the Finns so.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Also, you are aware that it was Israel who declared war first in 1967, right?

    War was going to happen in 1967 and the Soviets had given so many new arms to the Syrians and Egyptians there was only one way that the Israelis thought they could win it. Closing the Straits of Tiran by Egypt was tantamount to declaring war and the tens of thousands of troops in Sinai weren't there on vacation.


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    #398
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Your getting away from the headline of this thread. Couple with six children killed. They are Israeli citizens suffering as a result of actions committed by Palestinian terrorists. Those children have lost a Father and a Mother. Those responsible must be brought to justice and the Palestinians must condemn such attacks.

    Couple with six children killed. They are Israeli occupiers suffering as a result of actions carried out by Palestinian resistance fighters. Those children have lost a Father and a Mother. Those responsible for the occupation must be brought to justice.


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    #399
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    I guess Russia will have to give Konigsberg back to the Germans and Viipuri back to the Finns so.

    .

    For somebody who says they're against the occupation, you come out with a lot of things that say distinctly the opposite.


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    #400
    folamh
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    No
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybHDH_vsPcg


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    #401
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    folamh wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybHDH_vsPcg

    No bias there :rolleyes:


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    #402
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    folamh wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybHDH_vsPcg


    You've something to add?


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    #403
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    No
    riffmongous wrote: »
    I just think your original comparison is a bit willfully ignorant regarding the capacities of the settlers

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel
    Despite a general impression that the majority of Israeli citizens are conscripted, only about 50% of potential conscripts actually serve in the military. Others do not serve for a variety of reasons, including religious study, minority community exemptions, refusal to serve, "low motivation", and a criminal record.

    And yet, this somehow justifies the belief that all settlers are legitimate military targets and not to be classed as civilians?
    end of the road wrote: »
    anything outside the pre-1967 borders is not israely land. they have no right or legitimate claim to it. its not strategic.

    I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.

    At it's thinnest point, Israel is 7km wide. Holding areas vital to their survival is strategic.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    What makes the militant and the settlers non militant? One uses violence to kill, the other uses violence to steal, and to kill occasionally.

    On what basis are you differentiating?

    On the basis that one is a militant organization and the other is civilian. You know, the very definitions? Hamas are openly militant, they are in essence, the military wing of Palestine. Settlers are not. They are horrendous human beings, they should be taken out of Palestine, but they are civilians they are not military targets.


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    #404
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    No
    RustyNut wrote: »
    Couple with six children killed. They are Israeli occupiers suffering as a result of actions carried out by Palestinian resistance fighters. Those children have lost a Father and a Mother. Those responsible for the occupation must be brought to justice.

    Yeah, let's not blame the murderers, let's engage in some waffle about who is really responsible!


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    #405
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    No
    Billy86 wrote: »
    That's what one side would have you believe, just like some British would claim that Ireland started the conflicts against them. Don't try to oversimplify it, it's not a good look.

    If Ireland had started lynching the English in riots and wanting the English to live as second-class citizens, yes you'd have a point. But that's not what happened here, and it is what happened in Israel/Palestine.

    I would recommend reading about the Arab-Jewish conflict in Ottoman/British Palestine prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Because displacing innocent civilians even from land captured during war is illegal under international law. If the Israelis want to be treated like a civilised country and not as a savage country, they have to obey the aforementioned.

    I do agree, Israel should halt and reverse the settlement building. But people are trying to absolve Palestine of any and all guilt, which is absolutely fúcking stupid.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Also, you are aware that it was Israel who declared war first in 1967, right?

    You mean when Egypt, Jordan and Syria were all sitting on Israel's doorstep threatening another invasion?
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    What makes the militant and the settlers non militant? One uses violence to kill, the other uses violence to steal, and to kill occasionally.

    On what basis are you differentiating?

    On the basis that one is a militant organization and the other is civilian. You know, the very definitions? Hamas are openly militant, they are in essence, the military wing of Palestine. Settlers are not. They are horrendous human beings, they should be taken out of Palestine, but they are civilians they are not military targets.


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    #406
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is a confliction with no resolution outside war and obliteration. I remember from school the British were colonisers in Palestine - how much of the blame lie with them, and should they be made to restitute it?


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    #407
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This is a confliction with no resolution outside war and obliteration. I remember from school the British were colonisers in Palestine - how much of the blame lie with them, and should they be made to restitute it?
    Yes, the Israelis are unlikely to give up the land they have illegally stolen without a war. This is unfortunate.


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    #408
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    I guess Russia will have to give Konigsberg back to the Germans and Viipuri back to the Finns so.

    Or give Palestine back to the people there 2000 years before in 1945. How mad would that be?

    In any case the Israelis are still colonising. That's the problem.


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    #409
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Gaza continues to stream rockets into Israel, subject their inhabitants to a nightmarish reality. Imposing sharia law is resisting Zionist colonial aggression in your eyes then we have their attacks on Fatah.

    Is streaming now 2 rusty rockets fired at a state backed by one of the world's most sophisticated armies backed by the world's most dominant?


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    #410
    folamh
    Registered Users Posts: 787 ✭✭✭folamh


    No
    tayto lover wrote: »
    No bias there :rolleyes:

    Do you have anything to say about the content of the video other than that it's biased?


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    #411
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel



    And yet, this somehow justifies the belief that all settlers are legitimate military targets and not to be classed as civilians?

    Settlers are colonists, usually armed, often fanatical. Once in the OT they are part of the occupation.
    IrishTrajan wrote: »

    it's thinnest point, Israel is 7km wide. Holding areas vital to their survival is strategic.

    You were arguing the settlers were civillians a minute ago.


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  • Options
    #412
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    folamh wrote: »
    Do you have anything to say about the content of the video other than that it's biased?

    Do you have anything to say - at all - about the content of the video? Because if we wanted to hear some anonymous video rant on youtube, we could look them up ourselves.


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    #413
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Nodin wrote: »
    Settlers are colonists, usually armed, often fanatical. Once in the OT they are part of the occupation.


    You were arguing the settlers were civillians a minute ago.
    A Freudian slip perhaps in to what he knows these fanatics really are.


  • Options
    #414
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    folamh wrote: »
    Do you have anything to say about the content of the video other than that it's biased?

    I think "biased" covers it.


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    #415
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.

    i'm well aware of what it means.
    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    At it's thinnest point, Israel is 7km wide. Holding areas vital to their survival is strategic.

    those areas are not vital to their survival so not strategic. they were never vital to their survival so never were strategic. they weren't happy with what land they were given so decided to take some more and play the "vital to our survival" rubbish and all sorts of other nonsense.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #416
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    At it's thinnest point, Israel is 7km wide. Holding areas vital to their survival is strategic.

    How are the settlement areas vital to their survival?
    On the basis that one is a militant organization and the other is civilian. You know, the very definitions? Hamas are openly militant, they are in essence, the military wing of Palestine. Settlers are not. They are horrendous human beings, they should be taken out of Palestine, but they are civilians they are not military targets.

    Again, by what criteria? They are part of an invasion force. They use violence to help their government colonise neighbouring territory. I'm not seeing a distinction.


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    #417
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    Settlers are colonists, usually armed, often fanatical. Once in the OT they are part of the occupation.

    That doesn't make them military targets, no more than a farmer with a shotgun makes him a military target.
    Nodin wrote: »
    You were arguing the settlers were civillians a minute ago.

    You do know there's more to a military than just civilians in buildings, right? Strategic depth refers to the military's ability to defend the State from penetration.

    Settlers being civilians, and the IDF being interested in strategic depth are not mutually exclusive terms.


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    #418
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    That doesn't make them military targets, no more than a farmer with a shotgun makes him a military target.



    It might if he's farming someone else's land after the real owners were forced off it.


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    #419
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    No
    Deleted User wrote: »
    This is a confliction with no resolution outside war and obliteration. I remember from school the British were colonisers in Palestine - how much of the blame lie with them, and should they be made to restitute it?

    Britain took over the administrative duties of Palestine (and Transjordan) from the Ottoman Empire after the Arab Revolt (with France taking Greater Syria).

    Before the British took over, there was a large influx of Jews into what is now Palestine. The Ottoman Empire issued a decree stating all citizens were equal (previously non-Muslims were considered Dhimmi). Many Arabs disliked this and believed the Jews (and Christians) should be Dhimmi. After the British took over, the influx of Jews continued, buying significant amounts of land from Ottoman or British land-owners (if I recall correctly, they only bought 25% from Arabs) to build homes.

    After several ethnic riots (including both the Jews and Arabs setting up what were essentially lynch mobs and terrorist groups), the British decided to split the country in two, with the Arabs immediately going on the offensive (there was fighting pre-1948, and from 1948 to 1949 there was the "Arab Israeli war" [which Israelis see as a war of independence]).

    Then a whole lot of fighting between neighbours for the next couple decades, and we come to today.


    So, no, the blame can not be entirely laid at the feet of the British, though that doesn't stop a lot of people from trying to do so because they don't like the nuanced history of the region.


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    #420
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    No
    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Is streaming now 2 rusty rockets fired at a state backed by one of the world's most sophisticated armies backed by the world's most dominant?

    So, because the Palestinians don't have high-tech weaponry, they can't be held accountable for firing rockets at school children? What a load of nonsense.


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    #421
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    No
    tipptom wrote: »
    [/B] A Freudian slip perhaps in to what he knows these fanatics really are.

    It wasn't a Freudian slip. I've been open in my disgust towards the Settlers, a lot of them are vile human beings... But that in no way makes them military targets or justifies the murder of two parents while their children watch.

    Why do you people always think it's a bipolar scenario? One can hate the settlers' actions and the Palestinian replies, y'know.
    end of the road wrote: »
    those areas are not vital to their survival so not strategic. they were never vital to their survival so never were strategic. they weren't happy with what land they were given so decided to take some more and play the "vital to our survival" rubbish and all sorts of other nonsense.

    Israel was attacked first.


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