Couple with six children killed in Palestine

RustyNut

RustyNut wrote: »

How do you define murder?

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

How do you define murder?

How do You define murder?

Am I doing it right?

hatrickpatrick

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Weasel words. You sound like a Sinn Fein/IRA spokesman during the troubles.

LOL
Bringing up the IRA straw man is the boards.ie equivalent of Godwin's Law. Is that really the best you can do?

The pro-palestinians constantly put themselves in a higher moral position but you've shown your true colours in this thread and no amount of squirming can get you out of it. You've shown yourself to be a complete hypocrite.

Please explain how.

CruelCoin

No

end of the road wrote: »

they brought it on themselves by being the biggest terrorist state in the middle east.

Very debatable.

The history of that area is a pendulum in control. I'm fairly sure atrocities were commited on every swing.

CruelCoin

No

wes wrote: »

That is not to even mention the decade old offer of peace from the Arab league that Israel is still ignoring for some reason.

If you believe that a piece of paper is a barrier to conflict, then you're naieve. War-peace-war-peace. This is a normal state of affairs, and you don't have to look too far to see an example. Look at the Anglo-Franco history for example.

As for that offer of peace: "We your neighbouring peoples, who invaded you, and lost i might add, now make this offer whereby you will hand over all the spoils of the war we lost".
Its silly. Not surprised they haven't signed it.

CruelCoin

No

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why is it worse to fire unguided home made garbage into Israel than to deliberately blast playing children to pieces in Gaza with the most sophisticated weaponry on earth?
.

Yes, i'm sure a tank pointed its main cannon at a child and a commander said "kill it". Don't be ridiculous. That has not happened.

As for "playing children"; can you make an argument without trying to load it emotionaly?

Dan_Solo

CruelCoin wrote: »

As for "playing children"; can you make an argument without trying to load it emotionaly?

You don't find deliberately (under direct visual observation) blasting playing children to pieces elicits any emotional response? What are you, a Zionist?
So your theory is that Israel gets to keep what it likes if it wins a war? This differs from racist expansionists throughout history in what way exactly?

speedboatchase

No

A bit confused by the Palestinians' tactic of stabbing everyone this month. Other than goading Israel into a 'disproportionate' response, what the ultimate aim? Genuine question. Seems like this will eventually spill over into a situation where goes back into Gaza if casualties continue to mount.

Zebra3

CruelCoin wrote: »

Yes, i'm sure a tank pointed its main cannon at a child and a commander said "kill it". Don't be ridiculous. That has not happened.

As for "playing children"; can you make an argument without trying to load it emotionaly?

Ok, just children.

What about Israel murdering children on the beach in Gaza (and we won't mention if they were playing or looking for scraps of food)?

Go on, gives us the excuses. "Evil Palestinians kids, directed by Hamas, jumped in the way of guided missile dropped by heroic pilot of the Israeli Air Force."

:rolleyes:

speedboatchase

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

Ok, just children.

What about Israel murdering children on the beach in Gaza (and we won't mention if they were playing or looking for scraps of food)?

Go on, gives us the excuses. "Evil Palestinians kids, directed by Hamas, jumped in the way of guided missile dropped by heroic pilot of the Israeli Air Force."

:rolleyes:

Both Israel and Hamas committed war crimes, we know this. That horrendous incident you mentioned was deemed an 'accident' by Israel. Considering that most of the world hates Israel, it would do nothing other than further enflame hatred and reprisal attacks if they deliberately targeted those kids, but maybe they some sick bastard at IDF did. Either way, it was a terrible loss of life.

It may have been deliberate - your or I will never know 100% - but let's not pretend that any killing or attempted murder from Hamas was ever deemed an 'accident'. They are open about being indiscriminate in targeting all Jews.

CruelCoin

No

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You don't find deliberately (under direct visual observation) blasting playing children to pieces elicits any emotional response? What are you, a Zionist?
So your theory is that Israel gets to keep what it likes if it wins a war? This differs from racist expansionists throughout history in what way exactly?

I don't agree with you so i must be jewish....Really?
"What are you, a Zionist?" This is just silly. You're trying to paint it that being zionist is inherantly a bad thing.

"So your theory is that Israel gets to keep what it likes if it wins a war?"
We must have very different ideas on what war is. If the Israelis lost, they'd lose their homeland (given that particular war was focused on wiping them from the map, but if they won (as we know they did) they should not keep the spoils? This is two faced in the extreme.
Either its fair to keep what you win, or its not, and if not, then there was no justification in Israel being invaded to begin with.

You've made a claim that israelis have under observation" deliberately targeted kids. Please provide a link?

CruelCoin

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

Go on, gives us the excuses. "Evil Palestinians kids, directed by Hamas, jumped in the way of guided missile dropped by heroic pilot of the Israeli Air Force."

:rolleyes:

I have not used language of that flavour in any of my posts in this thread.

Nobody is denying that they dropped those bombs, we all know they did.
But i have yet to see valid proof, that they a: knew they were kids, and b: they then said "kill those kids".
Untill you can provide proof for both those statements, you cannot claim they deliberately targeted and killed those kids.

Also, its not murder. If a gunner on an artillery piece fire at an enemy, then shell then strays (flaw in the casing or something) and hits a house and kills civilians, then is that murder? Its not. Its collateral damage, which happens in all wars. "Murder" is when you deliberately and illegally kill another person. The deaths were not deliberate, hence not murder.

Zebra3

CruelCoin wrote: »

If the Israelis lost, they'd lose their homeland

Their homeland?

You mean the one they stole from Palestinians?

justanotherone

... who themselves took it from ...

... who themselves took it from ...

... who themselves took it from ...

the past can't be changed, Europe cannot take back all the people from the US and Australia,

Africa will not take back all the people in Europe

the solution is somehow to live together, not justifying bloodlettng

tayto lover

CruelCoin wrote: »

I have not used language of that flavour in any of my posts in this thread.

Nobody is denying that they dropped those bombs, we all know they did.
But i have yet to see valid proof, that they a: knew they were kids, and b: they then said "kill those kids".
Untill you can provide proof for both those statements, you cannot claim they deliberately targeted and killed those kids.

Also, its not murder. If a gunner on an artillery piece fire at an enemy, then shell then strays (flaw in the casing or something) and hits a house and kills civilians, then is that murder? Its not. Its collateral damage, which happens in all wars. "Murder" is when you deliberately and illegally kill another person. The deaths were not deliberate, hence not murder.

Maybe some of the Israeli leaders statements over the years would convince you that it just might have been deliberate --

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php#axzz3oRSsLdlg


This one in particular struck me -

24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Or this one -
25. "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

biko

No

tayto lover wrote: »

24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Now in context

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail," Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said in a eulogy. At the service in Jerusalem, attended by 300 people, one man shouted, "We are all Goldstein," an opinion echoed across Qiryat Arba by neighbors who said variously that they approved of his attack on the Arabs or at the least could not judge him.

This condoning of mass killing has shocked and repulsed many Israelis, including Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. One funeral home in Jerusalem was reported to have refused to ritually prepare Dr. Goldstein's body for burial.

Nodin

speedboatchase wrote: »

A bit confused by the Palestinians' tactic of stabbing everyone this month. Other than goading Israel into a 'disproportionate' response, what the ultimate aim? Genuine question. Seems like this will eventually spill over into a situation where goes back into Gaza if casualties continue to mount.

It's not a tactic, its generally spontaneous acts of resistance carried out by a desperate people who are led by corrupt and ineffective men.

Nodin

biko wrote: »

Now in context

...a better context would be the ongoing killing of Palestinians and the failure to curb settler violence. Words are somewhat easy to conjure.

RustyNut

CruelCoin wrote: »

You've made a claim that israelis have under observation" deliberately targeted kids. Please provide a link?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

CruelCoin

No

Zebra3 wrote: »

Their homeland?

You mean the one they stole from Palestinians?

You mean the one they inhabited before that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel#/media/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg

Nodin

RustyNut wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

For those unfamiliar with the above, it should be noted the penalty eventually imposed was to be transferred to another unit. A small selection more, involving direct fire.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/11/23/i-was-shot-while-trying-to-protect-jenin-s-children/

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/1ce874ab1832a53e852570bb006dfaf6/52e082eeb35a757185256f2c0057eb4f?OpenDocument

http://www.essex.ac.uk/armedcon/story_id/000212.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/23/1085250870992.html?oneclick=true

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/west-bank-violence-13-year-old-palestinian-shot-dead-bethlehem-refugee-camp-by-israeli-forces-1522527

CruelCoin

No

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe some of the Israeli leaders statements over the years would convince you that it just might have been deliberate --

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php#axzz3oRSsLdlg


This one in particular struck me -

24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Or this one -
25. "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

I'm not going to entertain anything on that trashpile of a "news" site as being based in fact....

CruelCoin

No

Nodin wrote: »

It's not a tactic, its generally spontaneous acts of resistance carried out by a desperate people who are led by corrupt and ineffective men.

Stabbing civilians is not "resistance"....

Nodin

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'm not going to entertain anything on that trashpile of a "news" site as being based in fact....

New York Times?
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/world/west-bank-massacre-israel-orders-tough-measures-against-militant-settlers.html?pagewanted=all

Are you disputing the fact that many settlers are in fact religious nuts and fanatics?

Nodin

CruelCoin wrote: »

Stabbing civilians is not "resistance"....

In their context it most certainly is. As a few targeted were IDF and settlers, they were hardly "civilian".

CruelCoin

No

RustyNut wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

Well, thats a horrible story. But it doesn't adress the point.

The origional claim was that israel " deliberately blast playing children to pieces in Gaza with the most sophisticated weaponry on earth?"

A beach was then mentioned. Now, both of those clearly refer to bombs. The incident with this girl is not the same as actively targeting kids with advanced weaponry.

Edit: That particular soldier should be jailed, before anyone tries to claim i support him.

CruelCoin

No

Nodin wrote: »

New York Times?
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/28/world/west-bank-massacre-israel-orders-tough-measures-against-militant-settlers.html?pagewanted=all

Are you disputing the fact that many settlers are in fact religious nuts and fanatics?

They absolutely are nuts, and should be in an asylum.

But this is again besides the point. Quote me where i disputed this?

wes

biko wrote: »

Now in context

Rabin was assassinated when he tried to do something about it btw. Just some further context.

CruelCoin

No

Nodin wrote: »

In their context it most certainly is. As a few targeted were IDF and settlers, they were hardly "civilian".

The IDF who did the forcible ejections are military targets, but the dude who moves in and plonks his arse on a sofa is not. Since when are settlers military personel?

speedboatchase

No

Nodin wrote: »

It's not a tactic, its generally spontaneous acts of resistance carried out by a desperate people who are led by corrupt and ineffective men.

Today's attacks were not spontaneous. Hamas has taken responsibility and said they were co-ordinated. Also, there's nothing 'spontaneous' about walking around with a knife on your person.

wes

CruelCoin wrote: »

The IDF who did the forcible ejections are military targets, but the dude who moves in and plonks his arse on a sofa is not. Since when are settlers military personel?

A lot of them are armed (as evidenced by the years of settler violence against Palestinians), and are engaged in criminal activity, which in any other circumstance would make them terrorists.

If a settler is armed, he is just as much a military target as a Palestinian militant. Unarmed, they are civilians albeit a civilian engaged in criminal activity.