This is England '90 in 2015

weemcd · 05-10-2015 12:20pm

Slightly low key ending to the series tbh, BUT if you take This is England as an entire body of work it was perfect.

Natural characters who you actually care about, real life situations with believable acting and dialogue. Inspired music score. Social and political issues raised without being overbearing. The show looked and felt like it was made back in the 80's continuing through to the 90's.

What about Shaun and the new photographer girl? Fúckin hell he landed on his feet there, Smell's awkward jealousy was great.

Gadget put on a great performance, as did Kelly when she was sat on that bench giving Gadget hell, that was real acting.

Just recently watched the film again, I'm gonna watch it all through just to refresh my memory.

Ash.J.Williams · 05-10-2015 12:28pm

Not sure if i'm double posting but here is "who killed combo" ....now i just need to know "why"!

the guy at the front of the movie pic is the same guy

Seanachai · 05-10-2015 12:44pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

here ya go

Can't access them for some reason

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

Haznat · 05-10-2015 1:50pm

The lads are most likely milky's mates. It would be a bit stupid to do it himself.

Ash.J.Williams · 05-10-2015 2:00pm

We know the black fellas are his family, but it was the the two skinheads waiting at the docks that really freaked out combo.

Tigger · 05-10-2015 2:06pm

They are national front
The scene is cut with real footage of the migration from skin head to national front solider the speech given on top was also race related and seemed to advise Cocoperatin between the races I think this suggests that the yard boys and skins have now become more organis d and focused
When combos ex allies took him on behalf of the black crew he new he was dead rather than just getting smashed up
I thought it was perfect

Seanachai · 05-10-2015 2:34pm

Tigger wrote: »

They are national front
The scene is cut with real footage of the migration from skin head to national front solider the speech given on top was also race related and seemed to advise Cocoperatin between the races I think this suggests that the yard boys and skins have now become more organis d and focused
When combos ex allies took him on behalf of the black crew he new he was dead rather than just getting smashed up
I thought it was perfect

He might have informed to get a shorter sentence maybe?, it could have been a gesture from the NF to the Milky's uncles that they were serious about doing business together.

Haznat · 05-10-2015 2:39pm

Tigger wrote: »

They are national front
The scene is cut with real footage of the migration from skin head to national front solider the speech given on top was also race related and seemed to advise Cocoperatin between the races I think this suggests that the yard boys and skins have now become more organis d and focused
When combos ex allies took him on behalf of the black crew he new he was dead rather than just getting smashed up
I thought it was perfect

The speech playing over the scene is Hugh Gaitskell's speech on apartheid.

I'm assuming that they weren't NF because it would make no sense for them to be working with Milky's family. I thought the scene represented the death knell for the NF through Combo as they pretty much died out in the 90's.

Seanachai · 05-10-2015 2:41pm

Haznat wrote: »

The speech playing over the scene is Hugh Gaitskell's speech on apartheid.

I'm assuming that they weren't NF because it would make no sense for them to be working with Milky's family. I thought the scene represented the death knell for the NF as they pretty much died out in the 90's.

They could have been the white side of Milky's family?

Haznat · 05-10-2015 2:43pm

Seanachai wrote: »

They could have been the white side of Milky's family?

They could have been. I don't think they were National Front though.

Ruu · 05-10-2015 3:28pm

Was Meggy at the wedding?

briany · 05-10-2015 3:28pm

What was with the beard and baggy jumper that Woody had on for practically the whole of '90. Combo said he looked like David Bellamy. I'd say he looked more like he'd been held hostage.

briany · 05-10-2015 3:29pm

Ruu wrote: »

Was Meggy at the wedding?

Yes, there was a brief shot of him in the revelry.

FelineOverLord · 05-10-2015 3:40pm

briany wrote: »

What was with the beard and baggy jumper that Woody had on for practically the whole of '90. Combo said he looked like David Bellamy. I'd say he looked more like he'd been held hostage.

He looked like he was sleeping rough. Soiled baggy sweatshirt and track pants were pretty much what he lived in, what woman would put up with that

Seanachai · 05-10-2015 4:31pm

FelineOverLord wrote: »

He looked like he was sleeping rough. Soiled baggy sweatshirt and track pants were pretty much what he lived in, what woman would put up with that

Given the father she had I'd say he could have wore a bin liner and she'd be happy she's with him.

briany · 05-10-2015 6:59pm

Seanachai wrote: »

Given the father she had I'd say he could have wore a bin liner and she'd be happy she's with him.

If there's one thing we've learned from the whole TiE saga, it's that Woody and Lol are simply meant to be, but Woody looks more like he'd just lost the love of his life than was living with her, about to get married.

trashcan · 05-10-2015 8:57pm

Laurel_Patente wrote: »

I loved it, felt like it wrapped up everything perfectly. It just showed that Lol really was the emotional heart and centrepiece of this wonderful programme. Even in the scenes she wasn't in tonight, it somehow came back to her. For all of us that watched her suffer through '86 and '88 in particular, to see her finally happy was truly wonderful. Vicky McClure is a star and will hopefully go from strength to strength.
.

Agree about Lol, and Vicky McClure. She's also excellent in Line of Duty, which I saw two series of before I realised it was her. (In fairness I hadn't seen TIE in a while when watching Line of Duty.) Completely different role, but she's great in it.

On the series, I found it a bit understated after the previous series, but still watchable, Very much character driven rather than plot driven. Combos fate was heartbreaking (still not sure I understood the handover - why would Milkys family be working with the NF ? And why would the NF want to kill Combo ?) but maybe his complete transformation from out and out psycho to paragon of virtue was a little bit too good to be true.

Thought Sean was a bit underused this time too. Possibly a consequence of him being based on the writer of the show.

spiderdan · 06-10-2015 11:06am

Thought it was the worst of all three seasons. The writing seemed a bit all over the shop and lacking in any real substance. I did really like the Combo Milkey sub-plot, as for the other story lines I didn't care as much. Overall disappointing season but as a whole movie/ 3 series amazing.

BMMachine · 06-10-2015 12:13pm

I've had time to digest this now. I thought it was very good.

The whole arc in this series I think was forgiveness and it was a theme that came up time and time again. There was Shauns initial fight in the first episode where the 'vampire' says sorry and no hard feelings and Shaun outright attacks him. Again in the second you have Harvey apologising to Gadget after throwing out the map and has a moment of self realisation where he knows how stupid and childish that was. In the third episode you have the dinner table scene and Woody quite specifically says "forgiveness is overrated" to the man he forgave. Then in the last episode, you have the scene with Milky and Combo where Milky can't forgive him but Combo's last words to him were "I forgive you". This was the same Combo that had just turned everything around against the odds. He had started working at a job he actually seemed like he would be good at and was rebuilding his life after shattering many others behind him, trying to atone for his mistakes. Milky though, when push came to shove, refused to help him. The scars from that day still very visible and instead of giving the man a chance and rising above it, lets him die with Combo's last words still ringing in his ears. The last shot being that of Milky, totally distraught on what was the happiest day for everyone else, showed that in the defining moment (remember the lecture Shaun had) he didn't do the right thing. The power was in his hands and he knew he f**ked it and those scars would be with him and burn deeper than the ones on his face.

vanman99 · 06-10-2015 1:38pm

FelineOverLord wrote: »

He looked like he was sleeping rough. Soiled baggy sweatshirt and track pants were pretty much what he lived in, what woman would put up with that

Where you around in the 90's, this was the whole madchester, pregrunge look.

FelineOverLord · 06-10-2015 2:12pm

vanman99 wrote: »

Where you around in the 90's, this was the whole madchester, pregrunge look.

Yes, I was 18 in '91 and nobody I knew wore dirty clothing.

Seanachai · 06-10-2015 3:14pm

BMMachine wrote: »

I've had time to digest this now. I thought it was very good.

The whole arc in this series I think was forgiveness and it was a theme that came up time and time again. There was Shauns initial fight in the first episode where the 'vampire' says sorry and no hard feelings and Shaun outright attacks him. Again in the second you have Harvey apologising to Gadget after throwing out the map and has a moment of self realisation where he knows how stupid and childish that was. In the third episode you have the dinner table scene and Woody quite specifically says "forgiveness is overrated" to the man he forgave. Then in the last episode, you have the scene with Milky and Combo where Milky can't forgive him but Combo's last words to him were "I forgive you". This was the same Combo that had just turned everything around against the odds. He had started working at a job he actually seemed like he would be good at and was rebuilding his life after shattering many others behind him, trying to atone for his mistakes. Milky though, when push came to shove, refused to help him. The scars from that day still very visible and instead of giving the man a chance and rising above it, lets him die with Combo's last words still ringing in his ears. The last shot being that of Milky, totally distraught on what was the happiest day for everyone else, showed that in the defining moment (remember the lecture Shaun had) he didn't do the right thing. The power was in his hands and he knew he f**ked it and those scars would be with him and burn deeper than the ones on his face.

Milky did seem to come out the worst in the end unfortunately, he could have acted and warned combo about his family's intentions on the street but would they just have found him anyway?. It seemed from the dialogue at least to be out of his hands. He has to live with the trauma of the beating and now the guilt of Combo's death. It did seem an awful waste given how far combo had come, his life was a string tragedies.

I thought the end scene otherwise was very uplifting with Lol and Woodie and the other characters celebrating. It wasn't in a fancy joint but they were happy, I wish people could have that attitude in these times. The whole series made me very nostalgic for those times, the boom messed things up in our society afaik.

I know it's probably stretching it but I'd love to see what becomes of them all, especially Milky and Kelly in one last series or feature film maybe.

BMMachine · 06-10-2015 3:41pm

hmmm, I think from the last episode when Milky got the phone call and was asked if he was backing out that it very much was in his hands. I think he was caught between his family, his pride and his morality. In '86 and '88 he learned a lot about pride and family from Woody and Lol and had been through so much since '82 (the movie) that you had a very confused man wanting to do the right thing in trying to keep everybody happy. In the end though, he knew he let himself down. He was juggling so many balls if you think about it, coping with the attack, his daughter, his relationship with his family, his relationship with Woody and Lol that he wasn't able to keep it all going. He took the easy route, what he thought would be the most cathartic route and in that defining moment when he could have called it off and saved Combo, he watched him get taken away.

It was very well acted by Andrew Shim as well. I personally feel he was one of the weaker actors in the main cast but in the last two episodes since the dinner table I thought he did an excellent job at showing a character in turmoil. Even when he confronts Combo in the street you could hear the stammer, the guilt and the indecision.

Seanachai · 06-10-2015 3:57pm

BMMachine wrote: »

hmmm, I think from the last episode when Milky got the phone call and was asked if he was backing out that it very much was in his hands. I think he was caught between his family, his pride and his morality. In '86 and '88 he learned a lot about pride and family from Woody and Lol and had been through so much since '82 (the movie) that you had a very confused man wanting to do the right thing in trying to keep everybody happy. In the end though, he knew he let himself down. He was juggling so many balls if you think about it, coping with the attack, his daughter, his relationship with his family, his relationship with Woody and Lol that he wasn't able to keep it all going. He took the easy route, what he thought would be the most cathartic route and in that defining moment when he could have called it off and saved Combo, he watched him get taken away.

It was very well acted by Andrew Shim as well. I personally feel he was one of the weaker actors in the main cast but in the last two episodes since the dinner table I thought he did an excellent job at showing a character in turmoil. Even when he confronts Combo in the street you could hear the stammer, the guilt and the indecision.

I think I only caught the tail end of that scene after coming back from the jacks tbh. If he could have called it off even at the last minute then it was a bad choice given that he has a conscience that he'll have to live with.

Ash.J.Williams · 06-10-2015 7:00pm

I'm watching it now ...I'm puzzled at how come it was a national front member from the movie that killed combo...unless anyone has a good reason I'm going to assume there's a clue hidden in the movie/doc footage

memorystick · 06-10-2015 7:31pm

Just noticed that the girl in goals at the indoor soccer has Down syndrome. I could be wrong.

Ash.J.Williams · 06-10-2015 7:38pm

I can only conclude that milkys uncles are in the afa as someone mentioned here and they dealt with it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action

Milkys face when combo told him it was jealousy and not racist was well acted.

gucci · 07-10-2015 10:38am

This is a good rounded explanation of one of the very strong themes of the show.

To be honest I wasn’t overly convinced by this series, but on reflection I think it was a very worthy conclusion to the overall life story of the TIE series.
The beauty of TIE is the strong storylines that tell themselves, there is often comic relief added in too for good measure and of course the shooting and music adds a wonderful atmosphere, be it to crank up the tension or release the good times. It is something that the production is superb at. What I really love about it (which can be a killer at times) is how clean it is. It is a well written show in so far as numerous characters stories are told at the same time, but it never seems rushed or cluttered in any one scene. Each moment of drama, sadness, happiness, forgiveness is given its rightful build up, climax and usually we see the consequences too. It takes great discipline I am sure in the shooting and editing to achieve this but it is something that many shows can sometimes bulldoze through and make a hash of.

One strong theme that has been there from the start is the strength in female characters, and a very underrated one in my opinion is Shauns mum Cynthia. I think it is apparent throughout the full story arc that Shaun is very close to becoming lost into various holes like many of the other characters at various time, yet his mum is the one who always remains constant for him. Her love for him never wavers, despite outbursts, anger and his problems. Despite having many problems of her own you always know she has Shauns best intentions at heart and puts him first. This is all while being perceived as a ditsy zany type character. And like many boys/ men Shaun clearly loves her too yet cannot really figure out how or when to say it, and the last scene we see of them together with the camera is so perfectly portrayed. We have seen Shaun vulnerable and emotional at many stages, but now it seems he has become a man and it looked to me like the penny finally dropped when he picked out the camera that his mum was the one who kept him on the straight path to his eventual goal. And that for me was the best “conclusion” to the entire story arc that this series provided.
Looking at it from the outset, his mum could have been such a stereotypical strong and dominant character as we have seen in other shows or movies, but its the subtly and unorthodox telling of this part of the story that I think is beautiful.
We have watched Shaun from being a lost child falling into a skin head gang where he could have ended up being the one in Combos shoes (or perhaps on the other side of the van doors when the opened) but he has matured into a well-rounded young man with a potentially bright future.

Apologies if I went OTT on the thought process there…..I just have been thinking about it for 2 or 3 days to keep my mind off the rugby!

Ash.J.Williams · 07-10-2015 10:46am

gucci wrote: »

This is a good rounded explanation of one of the very strong themes of the show.

To be honest I wasn’t overly convinced by this series, but on reflection I think it was a very worthy conclusion to the overall life story of the TIE series.
The beauty of TIE is the strong storylines that tell themselves, there is often comic relief added in too for good measure and of course the shooting and music adds a wonderful atmosphere, be it to crank up the tension or release the good times. It is something that the production is superb at. What I really love about it (which can be a killer at times) is how clean it is. It is a well written show in so far as numerous characters stories are told at the same time, but it never seems rushed or cluttered in any one scene. Each moment of drama, sadness, happiness, forgiveness is given its rightful build up, climax and usually we see the consequences too. It takes great discipline I am sure in the shooting and editing to achieve this but it is something that many shows can sometimes bulldoze through and make a hash of.

One strong theme that has been there from the start is the strength in female characters, and a very underrated one in my opinion is Shauns mum Cynthia. I think it is apparent throughout the full story arc that Shaun is very close to becoming lost into various holes like many of the other characters at various time, yet his mum is the one who always remains constant for him. Her love for him never wavers, despite outbursts, anger and his problems. Despite having many problems of her own you always know she has Shauns best intentions at heart and puts him first. This is all while being perceived as a ditsy zany type character. And like many boys/ men Shaun clearly loves her too yet cannot really figure out how or when to say it, and the last scene we see of them together with the camera is so perfectly portrayed. We have seen Shaun vulnerable and emotional at many stages, but now it seems he has become a man and it looked to me like the penny finally dropped when he picked out the camera that his mum was the one who kept him on the straight path to his eventual goal. And that for me was the best “conclusion” to the entire story arc that this series provided.
Looking at it from the outset, his mum could have been such a stereotypical strong and dominant character as we have seen in other shows or movies, but its the subtly and unorthodox telling of this part of the story that I think is beautiful.
We have watched Shaun from being a lost child falling into a skin head gang where he could have ended up being the one in Combos shoes (or perhaps on the other side of the van doors when the opened) but he has matured into a well-rounded young man with a potentially bright future.

Apologies if I went OTT on the thought process there…..I just have been thinking about it for 2 or 3 days to keep my mind off the rugby!

you're dead right..people were expecting to much from shawns character, but his job was to grow up and make something of his life and he did.

FelineOverLord · 07-10-2015 12:26pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

you're dead right..people were expecting to much from shawns character, but his job was to grow up and make something of his life and he did.

He was a teenager doing a photography course at the local college, it was hardly growing up and making something of his life.

This is England '90 in 2015

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