RWC'15 Pool D: Ireland vs Italy, RWC. KO Sunday 4:45PM TV3/ITV1

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 7:10pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

He's handed the ball. Runs around the back of his own player and the ref, gets tackled and blindly throws the ball in the general direction of a green shirt. Said green shirt then has to reach above his head and a little bit behind himself to catch it. Earls should never play for Ireland again with that kind of carry on.

This is what you've been left to resort to.

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 7:11pm

noway12345 wrote: »

It doesn't show the whole build up but wasn't the attack already built for Payne? An outside break had happened and he received it while flat out? I could be wrong. Earls' play was superb, received the ball going backwards and to set up the nearly try like that was unbelievable.

No, that's not what happened. The break was created by Payne.

Again, Earls is irrelevant. You were wrong about Payne, and that's the entire point.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 05-10-2015 7:14pm

noway12345 wrote: »

This is what you've been left to resort to.

Only the last sentence was a joke.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 7:25pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, that's not what happened. The break was created by Payne.

Again, Earls is irrelevant. You were wrong about Payne, and that's the entire point.

I wasn't wrong, I may have left out a part. I haven't seen him offload and break against top level opposition.

Earls' play deserves highlighting, it was outstanding. It shows that he can make a superb 13.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 7:26pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Only the last sentence was a joke.

Are you sure? I would have thought that most of your posts were a bit of a joke!

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 7:32pm

noway12345 wrote: »

I wasn't wrong, I may have left out a part. I haven't seen him offload and break against top level opposition.

Earls' play deserves highlighting, it was outstanding. It shows that he can make a superb 13.

Now you're moving the goalposts as well as trying to change the topic and deflect onto Earls. I have no problem with Earls as a 13, he's a decent backup for us to have at 13 and probably a strong option to start on the wing if we need him there either.

Considering you completely missed what Payne brought against Romania it's probably not a surprise you're missing what he brings to the side against top opposition as well. Hopefully he is fit and ready to go against France and you might catch what he brings this time out.

twinytwo · 05-10-2015 7:53pm

WarZ wrote: »

The ESPN stats are widely renowned as inaccurate and a joke.

My stats circulate from a betting group of which I'm involved that has analysis of every big team performance in the world cup so individuals can best decide on potential try scorers, MOTM award winners, scorelines etc.

Don't believe me? watch the game yourself, watch SOB and Heaslip doing all the grunt work and come back to me and say that its an untrue statement.

Another poster suggested that POM made the least amount of gain line yards, I wonder if he is also privy to the same info I am? Most probably.

right so basically your pulling it out of your arse?

if you watch the game, you will see POM doing just as much as anyone else.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 8:03pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Now you're moving the goalposts as well as trying to change the topic and deflect onto Earls. I have no problem with Earls as a 13, he's a decent backup for us to have at 13 and probably a strong option to start on the wing if we need him there either.

Considering you completely missed what Payne brought against Romania it's probably not a surprise you're missing what he brings to the side against top opposition as well. Hopefully he is fit and ready to go against France and you might catch what he brings this time out.

He made an offload against Romania, it's like we have Dricos twin!

Look, he's a good defender but offers very little in attack. Earls showed more in that one little clip than Payne ever has!

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 8:07pm

noway12345 wrote: »

He made an offload against Romania, it's like we have Dricos twin! Look, he's a good defender but offers very little in attack. Earls showed more in that one little clip than Payne ever has!

No, that's what is called an example. You said he can't do it, but he can.

As I said, Gordon D'Arcy said he was one of the only people in Irish rugby who have EVER been able to do it, he didn't mention Earls. I think I'll take his opinion over yours on that, given you seem to have something personal against Payne.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 8:11pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, that's what is called an example. You said he can't do it, but he can.

As I said, Gordon D'Arcy said he was one of the only people in Irish rugby who have EVER been able to do it, he didn't mention Earls. I think I'll take his opinion over yours on that, given you seem to have something personal against Payne.

I left out against the top teams! Shoot me.

I don't have anything against Payne, I just think he's holding us back. In that one clip Earls showed way more danger than Payne ever has. He's electric. Better on the wing though.

captbarnacles · 05-10-2015 8:30pm

I would prefer to see Payne defending Basteraud then Earls.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 8:43pm

captbarnacles wrote: »

I would prefer to see Payne defending Basteraud then Earls.

I'd prefer Henshaw attacking and defending him!

rrpc · 05-10-2015 8:59pm

noway12345 wrote: »

I'd prefer Henshaw attacking and defending him!

Amazing.

Bogsnorkler · 05-10-2015 9:12pm

Earls plays better on the wing. Why move him when there is no need.

Payne is our best 13 option. Has an excellent track record playing there for Ireland. Consistently. For the last 12 months. Provided he is fit there is no doubt in my mind that Payne 13 and Earls to the wing is the strongest selection.

Why has this tread descended into denigrating players in a tit for tat? How about a discussion about the defensive system which gave the Italians a 20m run to our outside backs form every set piece?

phog · 05-10-2015 9:51pm

Analysis: Inaccurate Ireland’s game plan struggles to break down Italy

Nonmonotonic · 05-10-2015 11:14pm

Captains face off

06-10-2015 8:58am

phog wrote: »

Analysis: Inaccurate Ireland’s game plan struggles to break down Italy

Don't quite agree with everything here. For example on the Heaslip penalty under "silly penalties". Garces went by where Heaslip ended up, not where his body position was at the point he ripped the ball. No doubt Heaslip had no choice but to hit the deck after releasing one hand to push the ball and he had Parisse underneath him trying to close the body gap to look like Heaslip was resting but I argue that Heaslip was still technically on his feet when he got the ball out and Garces got this one wrong.

.ak · 06-10-2015 9:49am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don't quite agree with everything here. For example on the Heaslip penalty under "silly penalties". Garces went by where Heaslip ended up, not where his body position was at the point he ripped the ball. No doubt Heaslip had no choice but to hit the deck after releasing one hand to push the ball and he had Parisse underneath him trying to close the body gap to look like Heaslip was resting but I argue that Heaslip was still technically on his feet when he got the ball out and Garces got this one wrong.

Are you talking about the one where he scooped the ball out of the ruck? Penalty for me, the ruck had formed IMO.

06-10-2015 9:55am

.ak wrote: »

Are you talking about the one where he scooped the ball out of the ruck? Penalty for me, the ruck had formed IMO.

This one, Heaslip is first in over the ball and is entitled to compete. He's still effectively supporting his weight as the ball comes out, Garces penalises him based on where he ends up, not where he was at the time of the steal imo.

Neil3030 · 06-10-2015 10:03am

I suspect Heaslip's right hand was down. Ref had a clear view to be fair.

sydthebeat · 06-10-2015 10:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

This one, Heaslip is first in over the ball and is entitled to compete. He's still effectively supporting his weight as the ball comes out, Garces penalises him based on where he ends up, not where he was at the time of the steal imo.

nah. not a hope he was supporting his own weight there

there was a better angle from the front where you could see his head was practically touching the ground when he scooped it.

.ak · 06-10-2015 10:11am

Fair enough, my memory was different, thought the ruck had beaten him to it.

Yeah his right hand could be supporting him there. Wasn't there a better view on the replay?

When a player scoops the ball like that I always think they're being cheeky, if he had a legitimate bite on that ball he'd be looking to gather it and reset it. At time I thought he was just trying to be a bit naughty.

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2015 10:14am

If your head is below your knees you're not supporting your own weight.

Also "effectively" supporting your own weight doesn't quite cut it

06-10-2015 10:22am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If your head is below your knees you're not supporting your own weight.

Also "effectively" supporting your own weight doesn't quite cut it

There are a million loads of examples of BOD's head being below his knees.

In my view Heaslip got a hand on the ball as he went in, sacraficed a good hold to get the ball out fast and then lost his weight, but it looked good to me at the time and does so in hindsight, from the other angle he looks off his feet but the ball has already come out at that stage which you can't properly see with bodies in the way.

Honestly, Garces was wrong but not entirely his fault, he just couldn't see the ball. However. I still think it's a bad call because he was in such a rush to blow up, as all ref's have been this tournament at the breakdown for maintaining weight and for rolling away. Not sure yet if it's a good thing, a bit like tiny handling knock on's at the base of the ruck by the 9, often think it's overly pedantic to penalise these and ruins the flow of games.

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2015 10:27am

Deleted User wrote: »

There are a million loads of examples of BOD's head being below his knees.

In my view Heaslip got a hand on the ball as he went in, sacraficed a good hold to get the ball out fast and then lost his weight, but it looked good to me at the time and does so in hindsight, from the other angle he looks off his feet but the ball has already come out at that stage which you can't properly see with bodies in the way.

Honestly, Garces was wrong but not entirely his fault, he just couldn't see the ball. However. I still think it's a bad call because he was in such a rush to blow up, as all ref's have been this tournament at the breakdown for maintaining weight and for rolling away. Not sure yet if it's a good thing, a bit like tiny handling knock on's at the base of the ruck by the 9, often think it's overly pedantic to penalise these and ruins the flow of games.

Yes there are examples of it, but this just wasn't one of them. BOD was actually illegal a lot of the time as well but got away with it. The recent clarification and the current focus around preventing players from lunging and coming back for the ball was specifically targetted at stopping players from doing what BOD did nearly every time.

There's a better angle which was shown as a replay just after the decision was made which clearly shows he wasn't supporting his own weight before he played the ball as far as I'm concerned. Garces was correct.

06-10-2015 10:33am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes there are examples of it, but this just wasn't one of them. BOD was actually illegal a lot of the time as well but got away with it. The recent clarification and the current focus around preventing players from lunging and coming back for the ball was specifically targetted at stopping players from doing what BOD did nearly every time.

There's a better angle which was shown as a replay just after the decision was made which clearly shows he wasn't supporting his own weight before he played the ball as far as I'm concerned. Garces was correct.

Fair enough, I don't think he went beyond the ball, his left hand went straight for the ball hooking it out which is a good contest. Surely the fact that he got the ball out so fast as Parisse tried to place it back is confirmation of that, and that act occurred before he lost his feet. The ball was moving away from Heaslip when he came into the breakdown so if he reaches, steals and falls how is that wrong?

Either way, it's an extremely marginal call, just think Garces and Ref's in general are not allowing much of a contest at the breakdown which I think is disappointing, I like watching a bit of a wrestle on the ground, SOB was a monster at it.

I also don't think it increases the pace of the game, introducing new interpretations in the warm ups is too late, just more penalties now. Stop start stop start 50+ minutes per half.

06-10-2015 10:35am

Neil3030 wrote: »

I suspect Heaslip's right hand was down. Ref had a clear view to be fair.

Heaslip has his right hand trapped under Parisse

And then eventually his entire body weight is on top of him just as he scoops the ball

Slow day at the office....

MJohnston · 06-10-2015 10:35am

There are definitely times when Heaslip would have gotten away with that, but he should have known that Garces was being extremely strict with the rucks during the match and modulated his play to suit that. He had plenty of warning to identify this in the first half.

06-10-2015 10:47am

MJohnston wrote: »

There are definitely times when Heaslip would have gotten away with that, but he should have known that Garces was being extremely strict with the rucks during the match and modulated his play to suit that. He had plenty of warning to identify this in the first half.

This was Italy's first penalty around 13 minutes in.

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2015 10:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair enough, I don't think he went beyond the ball, his left hand went straight for the ball hooking it out which is a good contest. Surely the fact that he got the ball out so fast as Parisse tried to place it back is confirmation of that, and that act occurred before he lost his feet. The ball was moving away from Heaslip when he came into the breakdown so if he reaches, steals and falls how is that wrong?

Either way, it's an extremely marginal call, just think Garces and Ref's in general are not allowing much of a contest at the breakdown which I think is disappointing, I like watching a bit of a wrestle on the ground, SOB was a monster at it.

I also don't think it increases the pace of the game, introducing new interpretations in the warm ups is too late, just more penalties now. Stop start stop start 50+ minutes per half.

In this case Heaslip didn't go beyond the ball really, but what he did was illegal for the same reasons that going beyond the ball is. He was basically lying on Parisse and then scooped the ball back with his left hand. He used Parrise to keep himself off the ground, which is why it's illegal.

This clarification wasn't made too late. It's always been illegal and is actually refereed more correctly in the Southern Hemisphere. BOD had a lot of trouble with it on the first test in the Lions tour in 2013. Now they're just ensuring it's refereed uniformly everywhere. It doesn't lead to more penalties, and it actually does speed up the game.

RWC'15 Pool D: Ireland vs Italy, RWC. KO Sunday 4:45PM TV3/ITV1

Comments