RWC'15 Pool D: Ireland vs Italy, RWC. KO Sunday 4:45PM TV3/ITV1

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:03pm

noway12345 wrote: »

Does Earls v Italy count as a line break?

I have no idea, I don't keep the statistics. I don't rate the value of "line breaks" much as a statistic anyway, because a line break is rarely an individual act.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 6:04pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Based on what exactly? You keep making these statements but failling to back them up. Kicking has won World Cups in the past.

Ok, it's based solely on my opinion that it wont be. The top teams will shut our predictable game down! We don't have the pack to do what won other teams World Cups with kicking before.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 6:06pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I have no idea, I don't keep the statistics. I don't rate the value of "line breaks" much as a statistic anyway, because a line break is rarely an individual act.

That's my point. The line breaks you mentioned by Payne were similar to that of Earls against Italy if memory serves me. Those statistics are irrelevant.

twinytwo · 05-10-2015 6:06pm

Pudsy33 wrote: »

A 13 doesn't need to make breaks. Conrad Smith wouldn't be know for his lightning speed or line break ability and he's the best 13 ok the planet.

i wouldnt go that far... the real problem is 13 is a hard position to play well... very few can do it to a world class level.

Would smith be as good if he played for say italy? i dunno... plus smith like BOD has age catching him very quickly

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:06pm

WarZ wrote: »

Complete nonsense and lies where are you pulling your stats from? He gave away 3 penalties AND was yellow carded by the way. And he made 3 tackles not 5.

Where's the statistics about who hit the most rucks? I'd like to see your source for that.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=181996&league=164205 < sounds like where twinytwo is getting his numbers from.

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:08pm

noway12345 wrote: »

That's my point. The line breaks you mentioned by Payne were similar to that of Earls against Italy if memory serves me. Those statistics are irrelevant.

You're the one complaining about him making no line breaks, now you're saying they are irrelevant? I'm not sure what you're looking for, I'm not sure that you're sure either.

From Payne I want to see him keep playing like he did against Romania, if he keeps up the high standard of defending and creating line breaks around him with his offloads then he's the best option available to us.

phog · 05-10-2015 6:10pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Joe picked a player who can play 13 who was training with the match day squad all week to replace the first choice player. It's what he does. Read the rest of the posts on the matter, I've said all I need to say on it.

So Joe picked a player who is suitable to play 13 for his country.

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:10pm

noway12345 wrote: »

Ok, it's based solely on my opinion that it wont be. The top teams will shut our predictable game down! We don't have the pack to do what won other teams World Cups with kicking before.

We have a very strong pack. We haven't been beaten up front by anyone in a long time. Our kicking game is better than South Africa's was under PDV.

If you can give a good reason as to why the other teams will have an answer to it then I'm all ears, but I haven't seen one yet.

bilston · 05-10-2015 6:10pm

noway12345 wrote: »

Making even half breaks and offloading are very relevent. Earls can do this, Payne hasn't shown that he can. It's irrelevant for this World Cup but maybe not down the line.

Payne absolutely has shown he can offload!

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 6:11pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're the one complaining about him making no line breaks, now you're saying they are irrelevant? I'm not sure what you're looking for, I'm not sure that you're sure either.

From Payne I want to see him keep playing like he did against Romania, if he keeps up the high standard of defending and creating line breaks around him with his offloads then he's the best option available to us.

No, I'm saying the stats are irrelevant, whereever you got them from. They include running over the line for a try after the whole move has been made I think. Payne is good in defence, I'd like a 13 who offered an attacking threat also, that's all.

That's my point, I don't think he creates line breaks either. It will become more noticable against the better defences I feel.

WarZ · 05-10-2015 6:13pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Where's the statistics about who hit the most rucks? I'd like to see your source for that.

The ESPN stats are widely renowned as inaccurate and a joke.

My stats circulate from a betting group of which I'm involved that has analysis of every big team performance in the world cup so individuals can best decide on potential try scorers, MOTM award winners, scorelines etc.

Don't believe me? watch the game yourself, watch SOB and Heaslip doing all the grunt work and come back to me and say that its an untrue statement.

Another poster suggested that POM made the least amount of gain line yards, I wonder if he is also privy to the same info I am? Most probably.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 05-10-2015 6:13pm

phog wrote: »

So Joe picked a player who is suitable to play 13 for his country.

Do you actually have anything relevant to add to his conversation?

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:14pm

noway12345 wrote: »

No, I'm saying the stats are irrelevant, whereever you got them from. They include running over the line for a try after the whole move has been made I think. Payne is good in defence, I'd like a 13 who offered an attacking threat also, that's all.

That's my point, I don't think he creates line breaks either. It will become more noticable against the better defences I feel.

If you think Payne can't offload in attack then I'm afraid you just haven't been watching him close enough. It's one of his best skillsets.

In fact Gordon D'Arcy recently singled him out as one of the ONLY Irish players who can do it:

The head coach merely identified this when moulding a game plan these past two years. Common sense prevails. There’s no point conceding a try by risking a skill set that feels unnatural to our best players (Brian O’Driscoll was a rare exception and Jared Payne).

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-when-offload-doesn-t-come-naturally-don-t-use-it-1.2352877

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:16pm

WarZ wrote: »

The ESPN stats are widely renowned as inaccurate and a joke.

My stats circulate from a betting group of which I'm involved that has analysis of every big team performance in the world cup so individuals can best decide on potential try scorers, MOTM award winners, scorelines etc.

Don't believe me? watch the game yourself, watch SOB and Heaslip doing all the grunt work and come back to me and say that its an untrue statement.

Another poster suggested that POM made the least amount of gain line yards, I wonder if he is also privy to the same info I am? Most probably.

Either provide your statistics or else noone is going to take you seriously. Noone cares about your "inside" information which you could, to be fair, just as easily ben pulling out of your arse.

I don't disagree that the ESPN stats are inaccurate, I just don't believe you about having an alternative source.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 6:17pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We have a very strong pack. We haven't been beaten up front by anyone in a long time. Our kicking game is better than South Africa's was under PDV.

If you can give a good reason as to why the other teams will have an answer to it then I'm all ears, but I haven't seen one yet.

Our pack is good but there's a difference between not been beaten up and actually beating up opposition packs. South Africa and England had packs that did this.

It's a very predictable game plan and we don't have enough top players to get away with it. The top teams are as good or sometimes better than us in the air. If you think New Zealand or Australia can't answer it then you're in for a very big surprise I fear.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 6:17pm

bilston wrote: »

Payne absolutely has shown he can offload!

In behind 2 defenders?

phog · 05-10-2015 6:20pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Do you actually have anything relevant to add to his conversation?

Is it not clear?

Joe picked Earls to play 13 for Ireland at least twice this year. Twice when he had other options. I think that's pretty relevant to the discussion on how suitable Earls is to play at centre for his country.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 05-10-2015 6:21pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If you think Payne can't offload in attack then I'm afraid you just haven't been watching him close enough. It's one of his best skillsets.

In fact Gordon D'Arcy recently singled him out as one of the ONLY Irish players who can do it:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-when-offload-doesn-t-come-naturally-don-t-use-it-1.2352877

That's probably Payne's Kiwi upbringing.

The Guardian had an article about New Zealand rugby a few weeks ago and they mentioned a few times how the NZ kids are taught a completely different skill set to everyone else from they're very young.

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:22pm

noway12345 wrote: »

In behind 2 defenders?

Yes, which is exactly what he did against Romania when creating the break that led to Zebo's disallowed try.

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:25pm

noway12345 wrote: »

Our pack is good but there's a difference between not been beaten up and actually beating up opposition packs. South Africa and England had packs that did this.

It's a very predictable game plan and we don't have enough top players to get away with it. The top teams are as good or sometimes better than us in the air. If you think New Zealand or Australia can't answer it then you're in for a very big surprise I fear.

There's not much of a difference when it comes to a team focused on the kicking game at all actually. It's much more important when you're not kicking the ball. And the best example of that is Wales' grand slam sides under Gatland.

It's not predictable. It's very hard to defend against, and we've used it to great effect this year already. Again you're saying New Zealand and Australia can answer for it but not really backing that up. Australia didn't have an answer the last time we played them anyway.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 6:30pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, which is exactly what he did against Romania when creating the break that led to Zebo's disallowed try.

Was that not Earls?

http://fat.gfycat.com/RemoteNeedyIrishwolfhound.webm

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 6:35pm

noway12345 wrote: »

Was that not Earls?

http://fat.gfycat.com/RemoteNeedyIrishwolfhound.webm

No, it's right at the beginning of that clip. Look at whose on the ground and who has just offloaded to Murphy.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 6:48pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's not much of a difference when it comes to a team focused on the kicking game at all actually. It's much more important when you're not kicking the ball. And the best example of that is Wales' grand slam sides under Gatland.

It's not predictable. It's very hard to defend against, and we've used it to great effect this year already. Again you're saying New Zealand and Australia can answer for it but not really backing that up. Australia didn't have an answer the last time we played them anyway.

The kicking invariably leads to lots of set plays, having a dominant pack is vital!

It can be hard to defend against but the better teams will be able to quite easily, even Italy were well able to manage it. Australia in the world Cup is not the same as Australia in an end of season friendly.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 6:51pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, it's right at the beginning of that clip. Look at whose on the ground and who has just offloaded to Murphy.

Ok but Earls' skill and offload is far more impressive in that clip!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 05-10-2015 6:55pm

noway12345 wrote: »

Ok but Earls' skill and offload is far more impressive in that clip!

I think Strauss' ability to catch that ball was more impressive than Earls ability to throw it too high at him.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 7:00pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I think Strauss' ability to catch that ball was more impressive than Earls ability to throw it too high at him.

So Earls receiving the ball on the back foot, not even from a standing start, he dances around 2 backs like the were prop forwards and offloads to his left with his left hand while being tackled is not very impressive for you? It was outstanding play.

The Rape of Lucretia · 05-10-2015 7:01pm

If Ireland really has ambitions to win this WC, then throwing the game against France to have a go at the ABs next is the only sensible strategy.

I hope Joe has the gumption and drive to go for this option. Settling for having a go at France to just improve our chances of getting further in the competition but with a lower chance of winning it would be chickening out.

The Argentine are likely a tougher win than Wales now.
Get at the ABs while we still have effectively a full squad. They are deeper than us in reserves and getting through 3 more games before we front them is likely to bring some caualties for us.
Get at them in a QF : no risk of Grand Final nerves.
Gives the opportunity to give the first team a weekend off before facing them. Our backup team is well capable of losing comfortably to France and not risking injuries themselves.
We will attack them with the best selection of moves that we all know Joe has been keeping up his sleeve, without having revealed them just to get to the AB game.
The returning injury first choicers can be given more time off if they need it, or given 30 minutes of game time against France with the second string if they will best benefit from a bit of game time.

Where's your ****ing pride Ireland ? Go for the top prize. Send out the reserves against France and make sure they lose.

irishbucsfan · 05-10-2015 7:05pm

noway12345 wrote: »

So Earls receiving the ball on the back foot, not even from a standing start, he dances around 2 backs like the were prop forwards and offloads to his left with his left hand while being tackled is not very impressive for you? It was outstanding play.

It doesn't matter how pretty it looks. It matters how effective it is. Payne but the ball on a plate for Murphy and took out two Romanian defenders while doing it. You said he can't/doesn't offload, and this is just showing you're completely incorrect. Earls is irrelevant to the conversation.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 05-10-2015 7:07pm

noway12345 wrote: »

So Earls receiving the ball on the back foot, not even from a standing start, he dances around 2 backs like the were prop forwards and offloads to his left with his left hand while being tackled is not very impressive for you? It was outstanding play.

He's handed the ball. Runs around the back of his own player and the ref, gets tackled and blindly throws the ball in the general direction of a green shirt. Said green shirt then has to reach above his head and a little bit behind himself to catch it. Earls should never play for Ireland again with that kind of carry on.

noway12345 · 05-10-2015 7:09pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It doesn't matter how pretty it looks. It matters how effective it is. Payne but the ball on a plate for Murphy and took out two Romanian defenders while doing it. You said he can't/doesn't offload, and this is just showing you're completely incorrect. Earls is irrelevant to the conversation.

It doesn't show the whole build up but wasn't the attack already built for Payne? An outside break had happened and he received it while flat out? I could be wrong. Earls' play was superb, received the ball going backwards and to set up the nearly try like that was unbelievable.

RWC'15 Pool D: Ireland vs Italy, RWC. KO Sunday 4:45PM TV3/ITV1

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