The Irish language is failing.

dr.fuzzenstein · 20-08-2015 02:24PM

astrofool wrote: »

Well, unless you're a foreign student, we Irish only like to disadvantage ourselves at third level education

I see, we're applying the same criteria as in running a business.
Foreign multinational? We'll bend over backwards, bulldoze obstacles, give you blowjobs, don't want to pay tax? Sure! Make yourself at home, the place is yours.

Irish SME? Pay up you bastard, we'll screw you to the wall you worthless piece of sh*t. Don't like it/can't do business? Then fcuk off, we don't want you anyway.

Dughorm · 20-08-2015 07:45PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The state should not fund political groups. Conradh was telling its members to vote against FG candidates when it was suggested that Irish could be optional.

The state funds "political" groups all over the place - what about all the state funding that goes to various charities who all make pre-budget submissions and political statements? to churches? to actual political parties - yes political parties also receive funding from the state....

Why exclude CnaG from this list?

Dughorm · 20-08-2015 07:46PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

The damage to self esteem by making people feel bad they can't learn this redundant pointless language, when the fault lies at teaching methods is unforgivable. All they are accomplishing is making students feel bad about themselves.

Isn't it terrible! What teaching methods are particularly bad in your opinion?

Dughorm · 20-08-2015 07:50PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

An optional subject taught as a real living language and therefore engaged in by students who want to be there and can leave school fluent in it could save and grow the language long term.

I don't understand why it can't be taught as a real living language as it stands?

I very interesting post btw...

LordSutch · 20-08-2015 07:57PM

Dughorn;

No/1 In a nutshell, what are your suggestions to keep the Irish language alive?

No/2 How would expand the usage of Irish through the adult Irish population?

No/3 Do you have a "magic bullet" idea that would kick start the Irish language?

No/4 What should change in the curriculum to make the language more appealing?

No/5 Would you consider making Irish a non mandatory subject post Inter Cert?

You know my theory very well, which would be very close to what Fine Gael were proposing a few years back, but if you had the power in your hands, how and what would you do to get the country speaking Irish?

The Randy Riverbeast · 20-08-2015 08:00PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The curriculum by the way makes some sense if fluency was assumed. So for a native speaker the Higher level Leaving Cert is probably crudely at the level of foundation English. The oral is a doddle; you write a couple of short unchallenging personal essays and you spend a small amount of time looking at the literature on the course. Bang! A1 and 100 points.

Meanwhile, for the vast majority of students that aren't fluent they're being marked on their ability to talk, write and interpret in Irish when they can't even achieve basic grammatically correct sentences to begin with and aren't being taught to achieve same at secondary level in a focussed and successful manner. A nonsense from a simple educational perspective, but from the broader view of state investment and preparation of students for later challenges in life an utter waste of time.

This is a large problem I found. Each year the teacher would assume we knew what we were supposed to from the previous year. It was clear we didnt but it went on assuming we did. This would snowball until Im learning of a few stock phrases and generic answer about the theme of love in a poem.

inocybe · 20-08-2015 08:04PM

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

This is a large problem I found. Each year the teacher would assume we knew what we were supposed to from the previous year. It was clear we didnt but it went on assuming we did. This would snowball until Im learning of a few stock phrases and generic answer about the theme of love in a poem.

this is still happening, and is about to start costing me 20euro a week in grinds. Nice cash side earner for irish teachers.

An Ciarraioch · 20-08-2015 09:15PM

LordSutch

I suspect no single "magic bullet" idea will keep the language alive, rather a number of initiatives would be required at all levels to take Irish off life-support. In terms of primary schools, as suggested earlier, Irish should be taught just as a foreign language would be, eight years should then be enough to develop bilingual fluency. At that level and at secondary also, the Ógras system (which aims to promote the language through sporting and artistic activities) should be rolled out nationwide to introduce a fun element to learning. I'd have no objection to making it option for the Leaving, after all, eleven years will decide attitudes either way. Finally, adults would have more incentive to learn as a community, so Men's Sheds, community centres, sports clubs, and any organisation that has local support should get grants to promote the language if that's what local areas want.

Cyclingtourist · 20-08-2015 09:20PM

Grants for speaking Irish, what a great idea.

Can't possibly fail.

Carlos Orange · 20-08-2015 09:42PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Irish should be taught just as a foreign language would be, eight years should then be enough to develop bilingual fluency.

How long should it take to develop fluency in a school environment? 11 years of Irish, 5 years of French and 3 years of Latin didn't give me fluency in any of them but I'm probably a low point when it comes to language acquisition.

Iwasfrozen · 21-08-2015 12:33AM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

LordSutch

I suspect no single "magic bullet" idea will keep the language alive, rather a number of initiatives would be required at all levels to take Irish off life-support. In terms of primary schools, as suggested earlier, Irish should be taught just as a foreign language would be, eight years should then be enough to develop bilingual fluency. At that level and at secondary also, the Ógras system (which aims to promote the language through sporting and artistic activities) should be rolled out nationwide to introduce a fun element to learning. I'd have no objection to making it option for the Leaving, after all, eleven years will decide attitudes either way. Finally, adults would have more incentive to learn as a community, so Men's Sheds, community centres, sports clubs, and any organisation that has local support should get grants to promote the language if that's what local areas want.

More grants. Great. Can't anyone come up with an idea to save Irish that doesn't involve parasitism? :rolleyes:

AnLonDubh · 21-08-2015 12:34AM

323 wrote: »

Huge differences.

Was a native speaker but haven't spoke the language in well over 20 years but still usually understand it fine if heard. However, I hardly recognize the language in my kids school books, same with much of what is broadcast. OK, had thought it was just me being rusty, but this thread came to mind and asked a friend who still speaks when he goes home to visit family in west Galway, says exact same, so not just me.

Most native speakers I know say that the language in school books is stilted and artificial, rather than unrecognizable. I mean the standard still follows essentially the same grammar as Munster and Connacht Irish.

As for the dialects, Ulster is reasonably different from the other two.

AnLonDubh · 21-08-2015 12:49AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

More grants. Great. Can't anyone come up with an idea to save Irish that doesn't involve parasitism? :rolleyes:

We could leave control of the schools to Xortax, the great parasite* of Ergor V.

*It's just a name, technically he's a symbiote.

Iwasfrozen · 21-08-2015 12:52AM

AnLonDubh wrote: »

We could leave control of the schools to Xortax, the great parasite* of Ergor V.

*It's just a name, technically he's a symbiote.

I thought our schools were already under the control of the great parasite?

But seriously guys, find a way to save your language without scabbing the state's money because the government is never going to give enough of a shít to indulge you.

AnLonDubh · 21-08-2015 01:31AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But seriously guys, find a way to save your language without scabbing the state's money because the government is never going to give enough of a shít to indulge you.

Well, if you don't have the forethought to accept Xandor the mighty, it's hardly our fault.

Wright · 21-08-2015 01:54AM

323 wrote: »

Was annoyed last November when my daughter, first year at secondary school, who had been OK at Irish through primary school came home from school all stressed out and crying. They had got a new Irish teacher. Teacher had a rant and gave out that their time at primary school had been wasted. They were not speaking right, accent was bad and that they would have to begin from scratch again. I was amazed at the arrogance of this teacher who was not a native speaker who's idea of right comes from summers at the gaeltacht......about 40 miles up the coast.

End result, another bunch of kids with zero interest in Irish (my daughter is concentrating more on French now). Own goal for the Gaeilgeoir's.

This is definitely a problem. I never had a sound Irish teacher, they were all freaks in one way or another.

Shep_Dog · 21-08-2015 04:51AM

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't understand why it can't be taught as a real living language as it stands?

Because it is not the native or family language of the pupils it is being taught to, and it never will be.

The idea of teaching Irish as a 'living language' to people who already have one (English) is just a manifestation of the Conradh's obsession with reinstating Irish as common tongue of Ireland.

There's nothing wrong with making children aware of Irish, but that there's no need for over a decade of mandatory lessons to do this. It should only take just one hour to teach kids the five Irish phrases they ever will use in their lives to impress their foreign friends. Less, if they were given a laminated card with the phonetics on it.

21-08-2015 07:12AM

I am born and bred Irish but I don't think Irish should be taught in school. It's a useless language these days and is only being taught for nostalgia, French or German being taught from primary school would be much more beneficial than a dead language. I never plan on spending much time in a Gaelteacht so I will never need the language, if people want to learn it as a hobby then more power to them but don't force it on kids who have zero interest.

Dughorm · 22-08-2015 02:22PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Dughorn;

No/1 In a nutshell, what are your suggestions to keep the Irish language alive?
No/2 How would expand the usage of Irish through the adult Irish population?

In addition to my suggestions about education above, I'm only going to suggest some self-funding ideas here because I think we're all agreed throwing money at this isn't going to solve the lack of use of the language

-More people using the Irish they have because they want to in daily conversation (there's no incentive here except people's interest in the language)
-Put Irish language circles (ciorcal comhrá) on a statutory footing - no additional cost here but rather recognition of the good work they do
-Irish language certificate which must be updated every 2 years to show proficiency in Irish for anybody who "makes money" from the government because of Irish, including Irish teachers, primary teachers, bean an tí, translators and Irish speaking civil servants
-Abandon the official standard - embrace diversity
-limit tax relief for film making in Ireland to Irish language productions only
-Close "An Gúm", the government Irish publisher and invest the money saved into a "new initiatives" fund where interested community groups can get funding for Irish language related festivals etc...
-Graffiti as Gaeilge on dilapidated buildings
-Give private sector Irish language initiatives free publicity through viral marketing e.g. Teach na nGealt on Boards, Android & Facebook as Gaeilge
-Twinning of interested groups, areas, universities, gaeltachts etc..., with equivalent groups in the Irish Diaspora who have vigorous Irish learning groups (primarily in US) where exchanges, online discussions etc... could be formed.
-Challenge the current environment where Irish language is treated as being segregated from the rest of Irish culture - it is closely linked to the rhythms of music and dance, the humour, the sport etc... and this needs to be emphasised.

No/3 Do you have a "magic bullet" idea that would kick start the Irish language?

No - I think An Ciarraíoch has explained this well - in any case years of hardened attitudes don't change over night.

No/4 What should change in the curriculum to make the language more appealing?

see my reply about education ideas above

No/5 Would you consider making Irish a non mandatory subject post Inter Cert?

Not at the moment. If all other subjects were optional like an A-Level equivalent approach then yes.

.

Dan_Solo · 22-08-2015 03:18PM

Dughorm wrote: »

.

Ah good, you're back.
Now, could you answer this question at the, what, third time of asking:
In the context of your statement that Irish should be mandatory as part of a liberal arts education, why Irish? Why mandatory?

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 03:50PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I am born and bred Irish but I don't think Irish should be taught in school. It's a useless language these days and is only being taught for nostalgia, French or German being taught from primary school would be much more beneficial than a dead language. I never plan on spending much time in a Gaelteacht so I will never need the language, if people want to learn it as a hobby then more power to them but don't force it on kids who have zero interest.

Even if you go to a gaeltacht the people will speak English to you. Half of them probably only speak English.

That's how useless the language is. Compare it with our language English (the unofficial language of the planet!

) and Irish is almost non existent.

It's time to scrap this brain dead language, bury it and move on. The world is growing ever smaller. English is the most learned 2nd language.

Hellrazer · 22-08-2015 04:35PM

Can I answer this.Im proud to be Irish and I personally would love to see the language survive although I cant speak it myself.

Id suggest a system similar to what happened in Catalonia and the Catalan language which was almost dead in 1975 before the return of Spanish democracy.They have managed to completely turn around the almost loss of their language with most Catalonians using catalan as their first language now.
It took a lot of work and even took the government issuing fines for businesses not compliant with having everything in Catalan before any other language.

LordSutch wrote: »

No/1 In a nutshell, what are your suggestions to keep the Irish language alive?

Total immersion.Irish as a first language taught in schools for at least the first 5 years or has happened in Catlonia for all of primary school..

No/2 How would expand the usage of Irish through the adult Irish population?

All government documents to be issued in Irish.Not dual language.Would make people have to learn it as an everyday language.Very successful in Catlonia.The option to receive them in another language has to be applied for.

No/3 Do you have a "magic bullet" idea that would kick start the Irish language?

See 1 & 2

No/4 What should change in the curriculum to make the language more appealing?

See number 1.

No/5 Would you consider making Irish a non mandatory subject post Inter Cert?

Definitely not.

You know my theory very well, which would be very close to what Fine Gael were proposing a few years back, but if you had the power in your hands, how and what would you do to get the country speaking Irish?

The resurrection of Irish would take a lot of time,effort and money and a government that would actually have the balls to follow through with whatever plan they come up with--it would need at least a 20 year plan in my opinion to completely revive it as a first language.

What is not working however is this half arsed attempt at trying to keep it alive...at the moment its in a coma for want of a better word--neither alive or dead.It could go either way and become completely extinct or with the right backing behind it become a first language for future populations.

GreaseGunner · 22-08-2015 04:36PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's time to scrap this brain dead language, bury it and move on. The world is growing ever smaller. English is the most learned 2nd language.

Just because the world is growing smaller and English coming more to the fore doesn't mean that there isn't space to be found somewhere for Irish.

Honestly, if in 100 years time there wasn't any Irish at all left in the country, literally nobody speaking it, not a sign of it anywhere bar history books, would you be ok with that?

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 04:45PM

GreaseGunner wrote: »

Just because the world is growing smaller and English coming more to the fore doesn't mean that there isn't space to be found somewhere for Irish.

True and if a person wants to learn this almost dead language then they should have the right to do so. But the government should not play a roll in influencing people's choices.

Your above ideas are ridiculous and quite fascist to tell the truth. What if I don't want my child to go to an Irish speaking primary school? What if I want to deal with the sate in English?

But then why are we even discussing this. What you're suggesting will never happen and you know it. Irish is dying, it's already comatose and soon it will be now it's time to bury it and move on.

Honestly, if in 100 years time there wasn't any Irish at all left in the country, literally nobody speaking it, not a sign of it anywhere bar history books, would you be ok with that?

Yes.

Hellrazer · 22-08-2015 04:52PM

GreaseGunner wrote: »

Honestly, if in 100 years time there wasn't any Irish at all left in the country, literally nobody speaking it, not a sign of it anywhere bar history books, would you be ok with that?

If in 100 years time it wasn't there I can guarantee you that there would be a huge effort to revive it.

Irish for me was hell in school but that's the way it was taught.I hated the way it was taught.17 years ago I would have been of the opinion of a lot of posters here in saying let it die out,let it become extinct.

However what changed my mind was the fact that all my 4 kids went to a Gaelscoil and actually seeing that total immersion actually does work.

They were all fluent speakers within Id say 3 months of starting junior infants when no other language was taught.
That's the way to revive Irish.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 04:57PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

They were all fluent speakers within Id say 3 months of starting junior infants when no other language was taught.
That's the way to revive Irish.

Children are barely fluent in English in junior infants I doubt they were fluent in Irish after three months unless the language is extremely simplistic!

Hellrazer · 22-08-2015 05:01PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

True and if a person wants to learn this almost dead language then they should have the right to do so. But the government should not play a roll in influencing people's choices.

Why??Its an official language of the state and should be supported by the government.

Your above ideas are ridiculous and quite fascist to tell the truth.

If its facist to want to keep my Irish heritage alive then sign me up.

What if I don't want my child to go to an Irish speaking primary school? What if I want to deal with the sate in English?

Well if it became an actual government policy to revive the language and do whatever that took then you may not have a choice in it. Again I point to Catalan.In one fell swoop the government made it law that every child be taught Catalan for all of primary school.It annoyed a few people but if you ask anyone there now was it a good idea not many will say it wasn't.

But then why are we even discussing this. What you're suggesting will never happen and you know it. Irish is dying, it's already comatose and soon it will be now it's time to bury it and move on.

It probably will never happen but theres always one small hope that someday one government will make it policy to revive the Irish language and do it in a way that we as Irish people should be proud to speak the language and not keep wanting it to die out.

Hellrazer · 22-08-2015 05:05PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Children are barely fluent in English in junior infants I doubt they were fluent in Irish after three months unless the language is extremely simplistic!

Not sure if you have kids but from my experience all mine were quite fluent in English starting primary school.They may not have written the works of Shakespeare at 4 years of age but Id describe them as fluent English speakers starting school.
After a few months of total immersion in Irish they were just as good at spoken Irish as they were at English.

GreaseGunner · 22-08-2015 05:08PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

However what changed my mind was the fact that all my 4 kids went to a Gaelscoil and actually seeing that total immersion actually does work.
They were all fluent speakers within Id say 3 months of starting junior infants when no other language was taught.
That's the way to revive Irish.

I'd agree 100% there. Immersion really is key when it comes to Irish. For anyone who hasn't had any experience with a Gaelscoil, visiting one is a real eye-opener. To hear the kids doing everything as Gaeilge is really special and you'd realise that the Irish language is far from dead

It will only die when we let it.

Iwasfrozen · 22-08-2015 05:12PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Why??Its an official language of the state and should be supported by the government.

Says who? Why must the state be charged with the preservation of its official languages? Surely the state as a living entity and the constitution as a living document adapt to the changing environment we find ourselves in instead of projecting by force it's rather limited concept of Irishness onto a much more diverse population?

If its facist to want to keep my Irish heritage alive then sign me up.

It's not, but it is fascist to force your cultural heritage onto others who may not identify with it.

Well if it became an actual government policy to revive the language and do whatever that took then you may not have a choice in it. Again I point to Catalan.In one fell swoop the government made it law that every child be taught Catalan for all of primary school.It annoyed a few people but if you ask anyone there now was it a good idea not many will say it wasn't

.
Fascist. I've never protested before but I'd do everything I can to defeat such a disgusting policy. If that didn't work I wouldn't have them educated in the republic of Ireland.

It probably will never happen but theres always one small hope that someday one government will make it policy to revive the Irish language and do it in a way that we as Irish people should be proud to speak the language and not keep wanting it to die out.

Such extreme and anti democratic measures will never be taken.

The Irish language is failing.

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