The Irish language is failing.

whisky_galore · 19-08-2015 12:37PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Also, "blossoming Gaelscoil movement"... When did people start spouting this nonsense?

Gaelscoils are a comfort blanket of the Irish language movement, did they ever carry out a survey on how many kids continue speaking Irish after they've left?

Love of the language isn't the only reason parents want to send their kids there over the regular school down the road.

Dan_Solo · 19-08-2015 01:31PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Gaelscoils are a comfort blanket of the Irish language movement, did they ever carry out a survey on how many kids continue speaking Irish after they've left?

Love of the language isn't the only reason parents want to send their kids there over the regular school down the road.

Wiki says

In the 2012-2013 school year there were 177 gaelscoileanna at primary level, attended by 35,710 students, and 40 gaelcholáistí at secondary level, attended by 9,663 students in non-Gaeltacht areas across Ireland.

Are even 9,663 habitual Irish speakers being added to the total every year? Who knows. I've a suspicion they won't be telling us either.

Wibbs · 19-08-2015 01:33PM

Irish_man2015 wrote: »

but we have to face reality., we haven't used Irish as a first language for close to 900 years,

Eh… no. 200, 150 since it was the majority language, not close to a thousand years.

It's looking like a generation or 2 or maybe 3, we will see one universal language, everything else may get wiped out!

Unlikely. Highly. And no it won't be Chinese.

The Corinthian · 19-08-2015 02:18PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are even 9,663 habitual Irish speakers being added to the total every year? Who knows.

Presuming that such schools are split into five academic years, then they would be adding 1,933 graduates to society that have presumably a fluent level of Irish, not 9,663. This would represent approximately 3.5% of the total number of Leaving Cert graduates (c. 55k) to society every year.

Apparently a million of us are competent in speaking it as a second language though, which I'm sure will raise eyebrows, although any figures supporting this admit this is based on self assessment. Big pinch of salt.

All presuming that there are any realistic opportunities to do so when you leave school and unless your job requires daily use of the language, chances are not.

Of those who I've known who have gone to such schools, they at best appear to speak it only with their parents or the odd old school friend (and even then, every fifth word was in English). Great, I speak Italian, but outside of the rare occasion that I'd use it at a chipper (less said about the quality of Italian spoken there the better), I'd pretty much only speak it with my family. As a result, my English is much better because I simply got to use it more.

Making it obligatory for certain professions has simply served to encourage an industry in passing exams (and then never using it again), the use of Irish tokenism (such as in the salutations in official letters) achieves nothing beyond being able to phonetically repeat something you don't even understand. And the use of TnG and the like... well, less said about that the better.

At the end of the day, even with the most optimistic (and doubtful) figures out there, it is the first language of 138k people - about 3% of the population. Basically, once you leave school, who are you going to speak to on a daily basis, unless you live in a Gaeltacht area or never leave home?

So it's pretty clear that realistically less than 10% of the population actually speaks it habitually - possibly less than 5%, but as no one want's to open the can of worms which is an independently assessed survey, we don't really know. And that number really isn't growing much, if at all, with or without the gaelcholáistí contribution.

At least the Swiss don't force everyone to study Romansh to keep that language 'alive'. On the other hand, I don't think there are as many cushy jobs dependent on Romansh.

LordSutch · 19-08-2015 02:23PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Pretty much this. We'll still be codding ourselves that we are somehow a bilingual nation 50, hell, maybe 100 years from now. The vested interests are far too powerful and have the ear of local TDs and are firmly nested in government (many of them being ex-teachers and all) to allow any change.

A reminder of what happened when FG made a cautious peep that Irish might become optional...
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/fine-gaels-proposal-to-make-the-irish-language-optional-at-school-is-rejected-see-poll-116221609-237369721.html

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/language-activists-blast-fgs-plan-to-make-irish-optional-26613367.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-language-students-protest-at-being-dumped-by-fine-gael-84116-Feb2011/

It's an exercise in national self-delusion. What a country we would be if people could get this worked up about our health system and batter ruling political parties into submission.

Well f that's the way things are, then there will be no change, ever!

I wonder what would happen if Fine Gael tried again after the next election?
(Presuming they get in).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-08-2015 02:29PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Well f that's the way things are, then there will be no change, ever!

I wonder what would happen if Fine Gael tried again after the next election?
(Presuming they get in).

... and not one single idea from the thosands of students themselves.

"The language will die out eventually if this happens because students won't pick it." - which, as usual, doesn;t explain how forcing people to do it keeps it aline?

Wright · 19-08-2015 03:11PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I genuinely don't believe the majority would support optional Irish to be honest...

It's ok to be delusional I suppose.

Dughorm · 19-08-2015 06:07PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

This is an education policy, not an Irish lanaguge policy.

You can't have compulsion anything as part of a "liberal arts" anything. This has been pointed out: liberal means freedom.

You are confusing liberal arts with liberal politics they are not the same thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

In Germany they refer to it as 'humanistic education' - whether one's politics are liberal, socialist, communist has nothing to do with it.

Dughorm · 19-08-2015 06:10PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I grew up in a somewhat anti-Irish household but there was one advantage. My father all but banned anything to do with the Irish language meaning that I wouldn't need another kick to my self esteem regarding the fact that I couldn't pick it up while being able to converse in French at the time.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think your household was like this? Why did your father feel the need to do this?

Dughorm · 19-08-2015 06:10PM

Wright wrote: »

It's ok to be delusional I suppose.

It's the practical reality of the situation - taking Irish out would be political dynamite... why do we hear no party talking about it?

ancapailldorcha · 19-08-2015 06:22PM

Dughorm wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think your household was like this? Why did your father feel the need to do this?

Not at all. He was an avid subscriber to the ideas of Ian Paisley Sr.

Shep_Dog · 19-08-2015 06:27PM

Dughorm wrote: »

It's the practical reality of the situation - taking Irish out would be political dynamite... why do we hear no party talking about it?

The same reason as 68% of the population proclaim their love for Irish but don't speak it. As a nation, we're conflicted on the subject & don't want to admit the reality of the situation.

Sinn Féin would have a field day as they're already using Irish as a way of annoying its opponents.

A good start would be to withdraw government funding from Conradh na Gaelige unless its and its affiliates agree to stop meddling in politics.

Dughorm · 19-08-2015 06:29PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

A good start would be to withdraw government funding from Conradh na Gaelige unless its and its affiliates agree to stop meddling in politics.

Why?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-08-2015 06:32PM

Dughorm wrote: »

You are confusing liberal arts with liberal politics they are not the same thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

In Germany they refer to it as 'humanistic education' - whether one's politics are liberal, socialist, communist has nothing to do with it.

Fair enough, but I'd argue that this is far more discriptive and far more relevant to third level rather than second level. In any case, it doesn't asnwer the question: why not let the student choose the langauge that they wish to learn? Bringing back Latin would make it even more "liberal" - how woudl you feel abotu that?

And the golden nugget: whatever about education, how is compulsory Irish preventing the langauge from failing?

Dughorm wrote: »

It's the practical reality of the situation - taking Irish out would be political dynamite... why do we hear no party talking about it?

It has been spoken about. Enda Kenny's in favour of it being made optional. Someone posted links a few pages back.

Dughorm · 19-08-2015 06:43PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

why not let the student choose the langauge that they wish to learn? Bringing back Latin would make it even more "liberal" - how woudl you feel abotu that?

We do - "foreign" languages of choice are available including latin.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And the golden nugget: whatever about education, how is compulsory Irish preventing the langauge from failing?

....It has been spoken about. Enda Kenny's in favour of it being made optional. Someone posted links a few pages back.

After Shep_Dog's post I perused the website of Conradh na Gaeilge www.cnag.ie just to see how political it was...

This is the first news item I found:

Tá díomá ar Chonradh na Gaeilge as an easpa tuisceana ar chruachás na Gaeltachta a léiríonn an Taoiseach Enda Kenny TD ar an gclár faisnéise Documentary on One: Fine Gaeilgeoir a chraolfar ar RTÉ Raidió 1 amárach (Dé Sathairn, 25 Iúil 2015) ar 2.00in, áit a shéanann an Taoiseach go bhfuil na Gaeltachtaí faoi bhrú agus é den tuairim go bhfuil líon na gcainteoirí Gaeilge iontu ag méadú.

Dúirt Cóilín Ó Cearbhaill, Uachtarán Chonradh na Gaeilge:

“Is léir go bhfuil dul amú ar an Taoiseach....Níl aon cheist ann ach go bhfuil laghdú tagtha ar líon na gcainteoirí Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht; tá lear mór taighde ó fhoinsí éagsúla a thacaíonn leis seo, ach níos tábhachtaí fós, aithníonn an pobal Gaeltachta féin na fadhbanna atá ag cur brú ar an nGaeilge mar ghnáth-theanga labhartha an phobail.

It says that Conradh na Gaeilge (CnaG) are disappointed at the lack of understanding of the hardship in the Gaeltachts displayed by Enda Kenny on the programme "Documentary on One: "Fine Gaeilgeoir" on RTE radio one, where he denies that the Gaeltachts are under pressure and he is under the impression that the number of speakers in them is increasing (lol!).

Cóilín Ó Cearbhaill, President of CnaG, said that it is clear the Taoiseach is mistaken... there is no question but that there's a decline in Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht; there's a lot of research that supports this, but more importantly, the communities themselves recognise the problems that are putting pressure on Irish as the spoken language of the people...

How informed are Enda Kenny's views on the matter I wonder??!! How many posters here agree with his view that the number of speakers in Gaeltachts are increasing?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-08-2015 06:49PM

Dughorm wrote: »

We do - "foreign" languages of choice are available including latin.

Why are some lanaguges madartory, some options?

After Shep_Dog's post I perused the website of Conradh na Gaeilge www.cnag.ie just to see how political it was...

This is the first news item I found:

It says that Conradh na Gaeilge (CnaG) are disappointed at the lack of understanding of the hardship in the Gaeltachts displayed by Enda Kenny on the programme "Documentary on One: "Fine Gaeilgeoir" on RTE radio one, where he denies that the Gaeltachts are under pressure and he is under the impression that the number of speakers in them is increasing (lol!).

Cóilín Ó Cearbhaill, President of CnaG, said that it is clear the Taoiseach is mistaken... there is no question but that there's a decline in Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht; there's a lot of research that supports this, but more importantly, the communities themselves recognise the problems that are putting pressure on Irish as the spoken language of the people...

How informed are Enda Kenny's views on the matter I wonder??!! How many posters here agree with his view that the number of speakers in Gaeltachts are increasing?

Irrelevant to the question you asked:

Q - Why are political parties not trying to make Irish optinoal?
A - They have done (and may well do so in the future)

InTheTrees · 19-08-2015 06:52PM

What about dialect differences?

I have family in the west who tell me that there can be differences between what they're taught and what they hear and what is broadcast from Dublin.

I know nothing about this, can anyone comment?

Dughorm · 19-08-2015 06:55PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Why are some lanaguges madartory, some options?

National languages being mandatory makes sense in any country's liberal arts education programme. We effectively do make one non-Irish/English language mandatory as well for those who wish to go to NUI universities which is a lot of students.

Irrelevant to the question you asked:

Q - Why are political parties not trying to make Irish optinoal?
A - They have done (and may well do so in the future)

Fair enough - Enda did try but he didn't try very hard... he can be much more determined though on other 'unpopular' issues e.g. irish water etc...

I sincerely doubt it will appear in the next Fine Gael manifesto.

inocybe · 19-08-2015 06:58PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Gaelscoils are a comfort blanket of the Irish language movement, did they ever carry out a survey on how many kids continue speaking Irish after they've left?

Love of the language isn't the only reason parents want to send their kids there over the regular school down the road.

A lot of people send their kids to a Gaelscoil to give them an advantage for leaving cert Irish. It's still all about that exam.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-08-2015 07:17PM

Dughorm wrote: »

National languages being mandatory makes sense in any country's liberal arts education programme. We effectively do make one non-Irish/English language mandatory as well for those who wish to go to NUI universities which is a lot of students.

In what practical way does it make sense in terms of the promotion of the langauage?

Fair enough - Enda did try but he didn't try very hard... he can be much more determined though on other 'unpopular' issues e.g. irish water etc...

I sincerely doubt it will appear in the next Fine Gael manifesto.

Probably depends on popularism rather than any practical or progressive reaosning.

Dan_Solo · 19-08-2015 08:49PM

Dughorm wrote: »

National languages being mandatory makes sense in any country's liberal arts education programme. We effectively do make one non-Irish/English language mandatory as well for those who wish to go to NUI universities which is a lot of students.

The sum of your explanation thus far as to why Irish should be mandatory in your "liberal arts" curriculum is that it "makes sense". How does it make sense? Why have it mandatory? Why Irish?

johnny osbourne · 19-08-2015 09:18PM

an bhfuil gaeilge agat?

dr.fuzzenstein · 19-08-2015 09:40PM

Ja

johnny osbourne · 19-08-2015 09:44PM

deswegen

Shep_Dog · 19-08-2015 09:54PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Why?

The state should not fund political groups. Conradh was telling its members to vote against FG candidates when it was suggested that Irish could be optional.

Wright · 19-08-2015 10:00PM

Dughorm wrote: »

National languages being mandatory makes sense in any country's liberal arts education programme. We effectively do make one non-Irish/English language mandatory as well for those who wish to go to NUI universities which is a lot of students.

"Some people need it for college so that justifies it being mandatory for everyone."

....what?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-08-2015 10:13PM

johnny osbourne wrote: »

an bhfuil gaeilge agat?

No, wait until the end of class.

20-08-2015 08:23AM

InTheTrees wrote: »

What about dialect differences?

I have family in the west who tell me that there can be differences between what they're taught and what they hear and what is broadcast from Dublin.

I know nothing about this, can anyone comment?

Huge differences.

Was a native speaker but haven't spoke the language in well over 20 years but still usually understand it fine if heard. However, I hardly recognize the language in my kids school books, same with much of what is broadcast. OK, had thought it was just me being rusty, but this thread came to mind and asked a friend who still speaks when he goes home to visit family in west Galway, says exact same, so not just me.

Was annoyed last November when my daughter, first year at secondary school, who had been OK at Irish through primary school came home from school all stressed out and crying. They had got a new Irish teacher. Teacher had a rant and gave out that their time at primary school had been wasted. They were not speaking right, accent was bad and that they would have to begin from scratch again. I was amazed at the arrogance of this teacher who was not a native speaker who's idea of right comes from summers at the gaeltacht......about 40 miles up the coast.

End result, another bunch of kids with zero interest in Irish (my daughter is concentrating more on French now). Own goal for the Gaeilgeoir's.

The Corinthian · 20-08-2015 09:36AM

323 wrote: »

End result, another bunch of kids with zero interest in Irish (my daughter is concentrating more on French now). Own goal for the Gaeilgeoir's.

Despite Irish's official status as the first language of Ireland, standardization to an official dialect has been a bit of a joke.

While there is an official written standard, An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, there appears to be no spoken one and any attempt at teaching a standard in school (one year you might have a teacher who has a Donegal dialect, the next year Galway) is pretty much out the window the moment you go to the Gaeltachts to learn, that appear to have little or no oversight.

Swiss German is like this but it has the advantage of being a widely spoken language. The equivalent of An Caighdeán Oifigiúil there is Schriftdeutsch, which is a slightly modified form of high German and only used for written communication. Even so, similar issues occur when it comes to most Swiss Germans and the Wallis dialect.

The lesson from the Swiss experience seems to be that you can keep your regional differences, or have a national language. Not both.

zeffabelli · 20-08-2015 09:44AM

There should be affirmative action for people not from the Gaeltacht or in Irish speaking schools. Or with foreign parents.

An automatic 20% extra points on the exam.

Also the score should not at all be included for assessments into entry for things like science, engineering or medicine. It has zero bearing in the gifts necessary for these subjects.

The damage to self esteem by making people feel bad they can't learn this redundant pointless language, when the fault lies at teaching methods is unforgivable. All they are accomplishing is making students feel bad about themselves.

The Irish language is failing.

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