The Irish language is failing.

Reiver

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not the people who speak the language. The gaelgores.

They're the one's who identify with an Irish culture that was largely invented as recently as the 1930's. Who tend to work in areas related to the language and that pseudo culture and who benefit financially from the the state support of the language. The one's who ultimately are more interested in the status quo than the language. Who identify with the term gaelgore like a badge.

Not the same as those speaking the language. I know a few of those, who were born and bred in the Gaeltacht, who also consider such gaelgores a bunch of tossers who have irreparably damaged the language.

Wake up and smell the coffee. At the very least the fact that the language is still declining and that mandatory Irish elicits such hostility should have rung a bell even with the dimmest of individuals.

So suggest all you want, but all evidence points to mandatory Irish having helped no one, but those employed to service the Irish language education industry.

"Were taught to resent." Priceless.

You don't get levels of denial like that every day.

Gaeilgeoir just means a speaker of Irish.

feargale

LordSutch wrote: »

1. English is our 1st spoken language, Polish is the 2nd most spoken language in the state, with Irish (the official language of the state), falling behind as the 3rd most spoken language in the state!

Polish is also the second language of the United Kingdom, with about half a million speakers. Polish has no official recognition in the UK, while Welsh and Scottish Gaelic
have regional recognition. You will find similarly in many European countries e.g. re Frisian in the Netherlands and Romansch in Switzerland.
Of course, recent developments relating to Calais etc. could mean that at some time in the future speakers of Syrian Arabic or Pashtu might outnumber English speakers in Ireland. When that happens I'm sure we will all favour relegating English to secondary status. Right?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

I can't believe you are standing over this child abuse analogy?! Is there some aspect of the Irish syllabus that constitutes child abuse or are you referring to abusive teachers?

It's understandable that you cannot believe it. It's called 'denial' and it is very difficult for people to overcome it once they've convinced themselves that what they are doing is right. It takes courage to critically examine the effects of ones actions.

The implicit message in Irish language promotion is that those who are not interested in learning Irish are inferior culturally to those who do and are to be as despised as people from Sussex. This is an attack on the self-esteem of children. No doubt, Irish enthusiasts think that it's for the good of the country, and the children 'enjoy it'. That's how they rationalise their actions. But once the children escape the regime, they speak their native English, but claim to 'support' Irish, just in case they might be denounced as 'un-Irish'

Why is it that the Irish-language movement wants the reinstate Irish as our common tongue? What does this say about their attitude towards English and those who speak it?

The Irish language movement is motivated by negativity towards modern Irish society and this is why it is isolated and shunned.

ancapailldorcha

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The implicit message in Irish language promotion is that those who are not interested in learning Irish are inferior culturally to those who do and are to be as despised as people from Sussex. This is an attack on the self-esteem of children. No doubt, Irish enthusiasts think that it's for the good of the country, and the children 'enjoy it'. That's how they rationalise their actions. But once the children escape the regime, they speak their native English, but claim to 'support' Irish, just in case they might be denounced as 'un-Irish'

I live in Sussex. It's lovely!!

The Corinthian

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't understand how "the gaelgores" obtain their status and power to irreparably damage the language tbh?

It's been repeatedly explained. Do a word search for the term 'status quo'.

You mean such hostility in this thread? You would need to explain how this hostility is extrapolated to the population at large...

It would be amplified in this thread, but you would probably have to travel in very rarefied circles not to realize that for the vast majority the language is irrelevant and for a significant number this spills out into antipathy.

You can deny that reality exists, but I had pointed out that one of the problem with gaelgores was their capacity for denial.

If you look at the aspect of choice which is there i.e. the option to study honours or pass, those choosing to study higher level Irish consistently outstrips those who choose to study higher level Maths.

What exactly does that prove? That higher level math is a harder subject to get points in perhaps? Plenty of people doing Home Economics too, does that means we have the most domesticated teenagers in Europe? I'm afraid, you'll have to do better than that.

It helped me to speak and enjoy the language more than I would have otherwise and I come from an English speaking background.

Good for you. You do know you're in the minority?

Yes, some Irish teaching is so poor imo that the result was that they were taught to resent it.... there's no denial there that's the reality for plenty of students i'm sure.

I'm afraid that there is denial there, because you are denying the very possibility that the mandatory nature of the language would create any resentment.

The problem with Irish is unlike English and maths - the other two mandatory subjects - it is an open secret that once school is finished, it simply will not be relevant to one's life at all. Even as a schoolkid, one can grasp that they will still be using English and maths in everyday life, even if not Shakespeare or calculus. But Irish? I can safely say, I have had neither then need nor opportunity to use it since I did my leaving cert over 25 years ago.

That it is taught badly is no doubt a problem, but even were it taught well, it doesn't change the fact that Ireland is an Anglophone nation. Other than ever-shrinking communities in the Gaeltacht, the only people who speak the language are those few who service an industry designed only to perpetuate itself.

Which brings us back to the gaelgores. A small group who will are in receipt of grants and artificial jobs designed to perpetuate their own cast. Who have been in denial about the language's decline for decades, continue to be so, and appear only interested in maintaining the status quo that protects those grants and jobs.

And even you have offered nothing other than what is a minority opinion here and suggested nothing that would endanger the gravy train.

Aineoil wrote: »

I just asked "why" I could not post in Irish here. I got my answer and was very happy with it. It seems fair to me. But why are you attacking me?

I was highlighting that to ask 'why' required a frightening level of disconnect from reality, which is not uncommon among many of the gaelgore cast.

Reiver wrote: »

Gaeilgeoir just means a speaker of Irish.

No. It has long become something else; a cast within Irish society fuelled by a combination of self-interest and jingoism. Were it simply just an Irish speaker, you would not have them gravitating towards certain political parties or even feeling the need to wear a little badge to highlight their identity.

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

Polish is also the second language of the United Kingdom, with about half a million speakers. Polish has no official recognition in the UK, while Welsh and Scottish Gaelic
have regional recognition. You will find similarly in many European countries e.g. re Frisian in the Netherlands and Romansch in Switzerland.
Of course, recent developments relating to Calais etc. could mean that at some time in the future speakers of Syrian Arabic or Pashtu might outnumber English speakers in Ireland. When that happens I'm sure we will all favour relegating English to secondary status. Right?

Well if your proposal is that we only have mandatory Irish within Galetacht areas then what can I say, great idea.

ancapailldorcha

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well if your proposal is that we only have mandatory Irish within Galetacht areas then what can I say, great idea.

As long as they pay for it themselves.

dr.fuzzenstein

feargale wrote: »

Polish is also the second language of the United Kingdom, with about half a million speakers. Polish has no official recognition in the UK, while Welsh and Scottish Gaelic
have regional recognition. You will find similarly in many European countries e.g. re Frisian in the Netherlands and Romansch in Switzerland.
Of course, recent developments relating to Calais etc. could mean that at some time in the future speakers of Syrian Arabic or Pashtu might outnumber English speakers in Ireland. When that happens I'm sure we will all favour relegating English to secondary status. Right?

Well, I wonder how many of these other marginal, irrelevant and regional languages are compulsory nationwide in their country?
These languages are a nice anachronism, but to force them on everyone nationwide is simply braindead and will do nothing but foster resentment.

zeffabelli

It's funny they didn't learn the historical lesson that forcing people to learn a language they don't want to learn, only breeds resentment.

It would seem that the Irish of all people would be a little more understanding of how that works out.

LordSutch

...and another thing.

What about kids Irish homework (in relation to them speaking Irish)?

I ask this seeing as so few people actually speak Irish, so how can our children be expected to do Irish homework which involves speaking and practising the use of the Irish language (as a spoken language)?

Obviously we have the cupla focal, but that's not much good at helping our kids to actually practice speaking and conversing in Irish in a home environment!

For us as a family, Irish is only ever heard in school, or the odd time on Tele.

_Kaiser_

LordSutch wrote: »

...and another thing.

What about kids Irish homework (in relation to them speaking Irish)?

I ask this seeing as so few people actually speak Irish, so how can our children be expected to do Irish homework which involves speaking and practising the use of the Irish language (as a spoken language)?

Obviously we have the cupla focal, but that's not much good at helping our kids to actually practice speaking and conversing in Irish in a home environment!

For us as a family, Irish is only ever heard in school, or the odd time on Tele.

Valid point... I myself have no Irish at all (native born but got an exemption from the Department thanks to a few years in Holland when I was 9), but I have a little fella now myself and the time will soon come when he'll be looking for Daddy to help with homework.

Unfortunately Daddy will be of zero use to him with his Irish - if it were up to Daddy he wouldn't be learning it either, or having to do "religion" for that matter.

Both subjects that should no longer be forced on kids in schools. Teach it to them at home, take them to Church or send them to the Gaeltact but the huge amount of hours dedicated to these 2 subjects could (and should!) be better spent elsewhere.

feargale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As long as they pay for it themselves.

What exactly does that mean? Every time Paraic in Connemara gets a bill in Irish for water charges he should get an additional bill for the letter of demand? That is, or was until recently the Chinese system. When a convict was executed his family received a bill for the bullet.

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

What exactly does that mean? Every time Paraic in Connemara gets a bill in Irish for water charges he should get an additional bill for the letter of demand? That is, or was until recently the Chinese system. When a convict was executed his family received a bill for the bullet.

Are you are equating using Irish with having a family member executed?

ancapailldorcha

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are you are equating using Irish with having a family member executed?

Evidently so. I was saying that if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats then they should pay for it themselves. How Feargale managed to extrapolate this to the point where it became relevant to Irish Water or the Chinese justice system.

dr.fuzzenstein

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Evidently so. I was saying that if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats then they should pay for it themselves. How Feargale managed to extrapolate this to the point where it became relevant to Irish Water or the Chinese justice system.

Well, according to some Irish Water is worse than the Khmer Rouge bashing people's heads in with rusty hammers. Oh yeah, it really is like living in a Siberian gulag. :rolleyes:
/off topic

feargale

quote="Dan_Solo;96746291"]Are you are equating using Irish with having a family member executed?[/quote]

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Evidently so. I was saying that if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats then they should pay for it themselves. How Feargale managed to extrapolate this to the point where it became relevant to Irish Water or the Chinese justice system.

Come on, now. You know very well that I was comparing principle, not magnitude. But never miss an opportunity to express horror. Such is the level of discourse on Boards.

"if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats" - What an extraordinary way of putting things. How many of these abused Gaeltacht children do you know, who had Irish shoved down their throats by their Irish-speaking parent? So, now we know how to raise our kids. When baby utters its first syllable you say " Baby, here's a list of the world's languages. Which one would you like us to speak to you?

Given the foregoing, the horror ( genuine, no doubt ) expressed at the mention of Irish Water is hardly surprising. ( I've paid mine, by the way. ) Ok, in deference to your sensitivities, substitute any government communication you like. Then, hopefully, you will get my point. Otherwise, you will have succeeded in derailing my point.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, according to some Irish Water is worse than the Khmer Rouge bashing people's heads in with rusty hammers. Oh yeah, it really is like living in a Siberian gulag. :rolleyes:
/off topic

Off topic indeed. Thank you for thanking it, Mod.

osarusan

feargale wrote: »

But never miss an opportunity to express horror. Such is the level of discourse on Boards.

Such is your level of discourse on boards that you somehow contrived to engineer a comparison with Chinese executions into the thread.

And then you criticise posts that highlight the complete stupidity of your comment.

What a joke.

feargale

zeffabelli wrote: »

It's funny they didn't learn the historical lesson that forcing people to learn a language they don't want to learn, only breeds resentment.

It would seem that the Irish of all people would be a little more understanding of how that works out.

This post I agree with in principle. Of course if certain people are to serve Irish-speaking people in a particular capacity it follows that a knowledge of Irish would be required. But in general yes, I agree with you. In fact if I had my way I would prohibit learning of the language by those who despise it, and probably their children and grandchildren too.

feargale

osarusan wrote: »

Such is your level of discourse on boards that you somehow conrived to engineer a comparison with Chinese executions into the thread.

And then you criticise posts that highlight the complete stupidity of your comment.

What a joke.

Read the previous post again.

osarusan

feargale wrote: »

Read the previous post again.

I read it - it was farcical back-tracking that will fool nobody.

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

What exactly does that mean? Every time Paraic in Connemara gets a bill in Irish for water charges he should get an additional bill for the letter of demand?

Yep. That or another small layer of progressive tax deducted from his wages.

It's the fairest system. He who wants additional services pays for them.

feargale

quote="feargale;96745782"]What exactly does that mean? Every time Paraic in Connemara gets a bill in Irish he should get an additional bill for the letter of demand? [/quote]

Now, would you all drop the faux horror and answer the question please.

I've even taken out the piece that caused such offence to your preciousness.

feargale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As long as they pay for it themselves.

Lord Sutch, I would like to get your take on this.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

It's understandable that you cannot believe it. It's called 'denial' and it is very difficult for people to overcome it once they've convinced themselves that what they are doing is right. It takes courage to critically examine the effects of ones actions.

The implicit message in Irish language promotion is that those who are not interested in learning Irish are inferior culturally to those who do and are to be as despised as people from Sussex. This is an attack on the self-esteem of children. No doubt, Irish enthusiasts think that it's for the good of the country, and the children 'enjoy it'. That's how they rationalise their actions. But once the children escape the regime, they speak their native English, but claim to 'support' Irish, just in case they might be denounced as 'un-Irish'

Why is it that the Irish-language movement wants the reinstate Irish as our common tongue? What does this say about their attitude towards English and those who speak it?

The Irish language movement is motivated by negativity towards modern Irish society and this is why it is isolated and shunned.

Sorry where is the child abuse in anything you have said here? Is it the "attack on self-esteem"? We had better hide the dictionaries lads :rolleyes:

feargale

osarusan wrote: »

I read it - it was farcical back-tracking that will fool nobody.

What a silly, immature post.
I wont dignify this by asking where the back-tracking is or how your faux-horrified self might be fooled.

feargale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yep. That or another small layer of progressive tax deducted from his wages.

It's the fairest system. He who wants additional services pays for them.

Thank you, frozen one. We have finally had a civil, cogent answer to my question. I will leave it at that for the moment because I very much want to get Lord Sutch's response if he's around.
Meantime I take it, Frozen that your reasoning is that these people choose to speak Irish rather than English. Am I right?

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

Thank you, frozen one. We have finally had a civil, cogent answer to my question. I will leave it at that for the moment because I very much want to get Lord Sutch's response if he's around.
Meantime I take it, Frozen that your reasoning is that these people choose to speak Irish rather than English. Am I right?

Nothing to do with what language they speak, they should carry the cost of additional services demanded.

DanielODonnell

I have no passion for the native tongue but I would use it sometimes simply to wind english people up. whenever they hear irish or scots gaelic they revert back to their native english ways of looking down their noses at peasant gaels.

Dughorm

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's been repeatedly explained. Do a word search for the term 'status quo'.

No it hasn't - I'll ask it again - where do the "gaelgores" (who aren't your typical Irish speaker apparently) get their power to irreparably damage the language? Who are these people with such power to destroy a language?

The Corinthian wrote: »

It would be amplified in this thread, but you would probably have to travel in very rarefied circles not to realize that for the vast majority the language is irrelevant and for a significant number this spills out into antipathy.

Apathy perhaps, antipathy is a totally different standard - please justify it...

The Corinthian wrote: »

You can deny that reality exists, but I had pointed out that one of the problem with gaelgores was their capacity for denial.

How convenient! Do all your invented groups also have this special capacity for denial, especially self-denial!

The Corinthian wrote: »

What exactly does that prove? That higher level math is a harder subject to get points in perhaps? Plenty of people doing Home Economics too, does that means we have the most domesticated teenagers in Europe? I'm afraid, you'll have to do better than that.

Not when your charge was that our nation is full of people who are brimming with antipathy for the language...strange that they consistently choose to do honours isn't it?! And more than another mandatory subject at that!

The Corinthian wrote: »

Good for you. You do know you're in the minority?

Irish speakers have been a minority for a while now...

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm afraid that there is denial there, because you are denying the very possibility that the mandatory nature of the language would create any resentment.

There may be resentment towards mandatory English or Maths as well. So what?

The Corinthian wrote: »

The problem with Irish is unlike English and maths - the other two mandatory subjects - it is an open secret that once school is finished, it simply will not be relevant to one's life at all. Even as a schoolkid, one can grasp that they will still be using English and maths in everyday life, even if not Shakespeare or calculus. But Irish? I can safely say, I have had neither then need nor opportunity to use it since I did my leaving cert over 25 years ago.

Have you had the need or opportunity to use your Shakespeare? Why?

The Corinthian wrote: »

Which brings us back to the gaelgores. A small group who will are in receipt of grants and artificial jobs designed to perpetuate their own cast. Who have been in denial about the language's decline for decades, continue to be so, and appear only interested in maintaining the status quo that protects those grants and jobs.

Name and shame please - if they exist you can surely name some?

Iwasfrozen

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I have no passion for the native tongue but I would use it sometimes simply to wind english people up. whenever they hear irish or scots gaelic they revert back to their native english ways of looking down their noses at peasant gaels.

What? All 55,000,000 of them?! That's quite the stereotype you've fabricated.