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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #2102
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    There should be affirmative action for people not from the Gaeltacht or in Irish speaking schools. Or with foreign parents.

    An automatic 20% extra points on the exam.

    Also the score should not at all be included for assessments into entry for things like science, engineering or medicine. It has zero bearing in the gifts necessary for these subjects.
    This is a quite different argument really. If some people are getting 20% bonuses on relevant subjects, then when shouldn't everybody get them? If there are extra points going you can be sure people will take up Irish just to get them. Will this result in any extra people using the language after the LC though?


  • #2103
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    This is a quite different argument really. If some people are getting 20% bonuses on relevant subjects, then when shouldn't everybody get them? If there are extra points going you can be sure people will take up Irish just to get them. Will this result in any extra people using the language after the LC though?

    Because they are at an unfair advantage.


  • #2104
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,544 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Because they are at an unfair advantage.

    It should be removed to level the playing field then.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2105
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It should be removed to level the playing field then.

    Yes this would be ideal.

    Bur given the stubborn sentimentality around it, unlikely to happen.


  • #2106
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Because they are at an unfair advantage.
    That's like saying biology and chemistry are important if you want to do Science in uni, but you should only get bonus points if your parents aren't scientists. What if your parents aren't native English speakers? Bonus points for English?


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  • #2107
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,661 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I genuinely don't believe the majority would support optional Irish to be honest...
    I'm sure everyone would welcome better teaching of course! And that's not to blame teachers in general - many do inspire a love of the language!

    I think you are completely incorrect there on the first part of the above.

    And, as for the second part, the educational / teaching boards responsible for the curriculum have shown no ability or interest to positively change the way it is taught. There is clearly a "survivorship" bias at play in the matter. 'I did well in Irish, therefore those who do not do well are simply lazy / disinterested.'
    Dughorm wrote: »
    It's the practical reality of the situation - taking Irish out would be political dynamite... why do we hear no party talking about it?

    You hear no party talking about it because the minority that would oppose it would fight vociferously against it's removal as demonstrated in this thread. There are a small but not insignificant amount of teachers and public sector employees who's jobs are based on the primacy of Irish as a compulsory subject and status as official language. Turkeys aren't going to vote for Christmas. So a government trying to make this change would face potential strike actions and opposition parties seizing on it as an emotive issue. It would be a headache, and ultimately it's a small part of life for most people. Sit through Irish every day in School for 12 years, figure out how to game the exam for the bare minimum and forget all about it for the rest of your life.

    But if you put it to a national vote? Come on.

    The real problem here is that short sightedness and self interest serves to make the language ever more irrelevant year on year on year. There will come a day where the amount of turkeys left wallowing in the status quo are a small enough number for a government to see the ratio of benefit to hassle in pulling the rug out from under their feet worth it. An optional subject taught as a real living language and therefore engaged in by students who want to be there and can leave school fluent in it could save and grow the language long term.

    A really tired topic to be honest.


  • #2108
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,544 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Yes this would be ideal.

    Bur given the stubborn sentimentality around it, unlikely to happen.

    Sadly, we can say this about any measure aimed at modernising the Irish education system in relation to teaching Irish.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2109
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    That's like saying biology and chemistry are important if you want to do Science in uni, but you should only get bonus points if your parents aren't scientists. What if your parents aren't native English speakers? Bonus points for English?

    If you come from the Gaeltacht you are at an unfair advantage. The rest of the country doesn't have that. So it's essentially native speakers vs second language speakers being assessed by same standards.

    Even in English there is a vast difference between native speakers and people who learn it as a second language.

    So essentially the government is expecting second language learners to be examined at the same criteria as native speakers.

    Not really fair.


  • #2110
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    There are a small but not insignificant amount of teachers and public sector employees who's jobs are based on the primacy of Irish as a compulsory subject and status as official language. Turkeys aren't going to vote for Christmas.
    It goes higher than that. There are more TDs who are teachers than any other profession represented in The Dail.


  • #2111
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,544 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    That's like saying biology and chemistry are important if you want to do Science in uni, but you should only get bonus points if your parents aren't scientists. What if your parents aren't native English speakers? Bonus points for English?

    The problem is that the science curricula are quite manageable for most pupils while the Irish curriculum is laughably unfit for purpose. In addition, you're not comparing like with like. Irish is language, a primary means of communication. Your statement incorrectly implies that I'd be incessantly teaching my children about biology every minute of the day.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #2112
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,661 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It goes higher than that. There are more TDs who are teachers than any other profession represented in The Dail.

    Yep. And once again, the idea that 'no political party is arguing for a change to optional' is not a compelling argument for why it should be maintained as a mandatory subject.


  • #2113
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    So essentially the government is expecting second language learners to be examined at the same criteria as native speakers.
    Incentives are not unusual where a government wants to encourage take up of a social asset - why do you think we have tax breaks for married people? That's not exactly fair either.

    The principle problem is that it hasn't worked. So all you're left with is a form of discrimination with no benefits.


  • #2114
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The problem is that the science curricula are quite manageable for most pupils while the Irish curriculum is laughably unfit for purpose.
    You might say it is worthless at making fluent Irish speakers, but it works perfectly well as a course for passing LC Irish, so this isn't really an issue here.
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    In addition, you're not comparing like with like. Irish is language, a primary means of communication. Your statement incorrectly implies that I'd be incessantly teaching my children about biology every minute of the day.
    But they would have some level of unfair advantage all the same. What about English and French? These should be as relevant to a language course in Uni, yes? Why no bonus points for these?


  • #2115
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Incentives are not unusual where a government wants to encourage take up of a social asset - why do you think we have tax breaks for married people? That's not exactly fair either.

    The principle problem is that it hasn't worked. So all you're left with is a form of discrimination with no benefits.

    It's also counter productive to the selection process.

    If a university is using Irish as part of its criteria, it will automatically exclude by virtue of that, some potentially very gifted people who could not make any sense out of the shambles that is Irish language teaching.

    It seems to me to be against the self interest of a university to use this as applied criteria.


  • #2116
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,661 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    The curriculum by the way makes some sense if fluency was assumed. So for a native speaker the Higher level Leaving Cert is probably crudely at the level of foundation English. The oral is a doddle; you write a couple of short unchallenging personal essays and you spend a small amount of time looking at the literature on the course. Bang! A1 and 100 points.

    Meanwhile, for the vast majority of students that aren't fluent they're being marked on their ability to talk, write and interpret in Irish when they can't even achieve basic grammatically correct sentences to begin with and aren't being taught to achieve same at secondary level in a focussed and successful manner. A nonsense from a simple educational perspective, but from the broader view of state investment and preparation of students for later challenges in life an utter waste of time.


  • #2117
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,544 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You might say it is worthless at making fluent Irish speakers, but it works perfectly well as a course for passing LC Irish, so this isn't really an issue here.But they would have some level of unfair advantage all the same. What about English and French? These should be as relevant to a language course in Uni, yes? Why no bonus points for these?

    Problem is that a pass is anything from 40-100%. It takes a lot of work to scrape a C for a lot of people.

    As regards bonus points for University applications, these should only apply to subjects directly relevant to the course being applied for, ie maths for engineering, biology and chemistry for the life sciences, etc...

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2118
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You might say it is worthless at making fluent Irish speakers, but it works perfectly well as a course for passing LC Irish, so this isn't really an issue here.But they would have some level of unfair advantage all the same. What about English and French? These should be as relevant to a language course in Uni, yes? Why no bonus points for these?

    At least French gives you access to European culture and is a contemporary language which makes contributions to journalism, medical journals, fashion, psychology and science.

    And yes foreign students who emigrate here and have to take the leaving very should be given either extra time on the exam or automatic extra points.


  • #2119
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Yep. And once again, the idea that 'no political party is arguing for a change to optional' is not a compelling argument for why it should be maintained as a mandatory subject.
    The reality is that public sentiment allegedly still supports obligatory Irish in schools.

    Why? In favour is nationalist sentiment. Against, there's not a lot for most people. How much we'd be financially better off is a closely obfuscated secret. And it really affects only two groups; schoolchildren (who have no vote) and parents (who see school time that could be used for other subjects going down the drain). Add to that a very powerful and ideologically (read: financially) motivated gaelgore lobby group and you're going to see an uphill struggle to change public opinion.
    zeffabelli wrote: »
    If a university is using Irish as part of its criteria, it will automatically exclude by virtue of that, some potentially very gifted people who could not make any sense out of the shambles that is Irish language teaching.
    Agreed. It's actually quite daft when you think about it. What exactly does answering a maths or applied maths paper in Irish mean? A native English speaker answering an English exam paper through Irish - ridiculous.


  • #2120
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,661 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    The reality is that public sentiment allegedly still supports obligatory Irish in schools.

    Why? In favour is nationalist sentiment. Against, there's not a lot for most people. How much we'd be financially better off is a closely obfuscated secret. And it really affects only two groups; schoolchildren (who have no vote) and parents (who see school time that could be used for other subjects going down the drain). Add to that a very powerful and ideologically (read: financially) motivated gaelgore lobby group and you're going to see an uphill struggle to change public opinion.

    Agreed. It's actually quite daft when you think about it. What exactly does answering a maths or applied maths paper in Irish mean? A native English speaker answering an English exam paper through Irish - ridiculous.

    I agree with your middle and last paragraph and have posted (a lessor written) version of the middle paragraph in a post above.

    But upon what is the first assertion based on?


  • #2121
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,544 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I agree with your middle and last paragraph and have posted (a lessor written) version of the middle paragraph in a post above.

    But upon what is the first assertion based on?

    The furore which is elicited by the merest attempt to modernise the curriculum in relation to the language. There are links above regarding protests when Fine Gael wanted to make it an optional subject for the Leaving Certificate.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #2122
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,661 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The furore which is elicited by the merest attempt to modernise the curriculum in relation to the language. There are links above regarding protests when Fine Gael wanted to make it an optional subject for the Leaving Certificate.

    A vocal minority motivated by their own economic self interest does not a national majority make!


  • #2123
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,544 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    A vocal minority motivated by their own economic self interest does not a national majority make!

    So there was a show of support for the idea then?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2124
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,661 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    So there was a show of support for the idea then?

    We have a poll showing a narrow majority in favour of its retention:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920

    With indicators showing younger / more urban demographics demonstrate the highest levels of opposition. And that's with lobby / interest groups and the status quo existing entirely on one side of the spectrum.


  • #2125
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,544 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    We have a poll showing a narrow majority in favour of its retention:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920

    With indicators showing younger / more urban demographics demonstrate the highest levels of opposition. And that's with lobby / interest groups and the status quo existing entirely on one side of the spectrum.

    I was referring to demonstrations that were demonstrated in opposition to the proposal.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2126
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    We have a poll showing a narrow majority in favour of its retention:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920
    Can anybody find the details of that poll and its methodology? Buried in the desert like most information relating to Irish popularity I'd imagine...


  • #2127
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    We have a poll showing a narrow majority in favour of its retention:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920

    With indicators showing younger / more urban demographics demonstrate the highest levels of opposition. And that's with lobby / interest groups and the status quo existing entirely on one side of the spectrum.

    So it's a cultchie thing?


  • #2128
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,661 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I was referring to demonstrations that were demonstrated in opposition to the proposal.

    No I understand your point, just wanted to move the conversation along. :)

    I would absolutely expect some level of demonstrations were a government to seriously propose a change of Irish in secondary school to optional. I'm not sure what can be derived from same in terms of a national position on the subject however.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Can anybody find the details of that poll and its methodology? Buried in the desert like most information relating to Irish popularity I'd imagine...

    It was commissioned by Tuairisc so I would expect some massaging of methodology. Clearly the PR release that was picked up by the Times verbatim in that link is very careful in the way the metrics are phrased. A sub headline is 'broad support' but the actual figure (55%) is written in plain English whereas other metrics are numerical. ;)

    I'd say such polling numbers considering the absence of any representation or organisation on the 'make it optional' side of the debate are surely a negative for the gaelgaores.


  • #2129
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,507 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    It's also counter productive to the selection process.

    If a university is using Irish as part of its criteria, it will automatically exclude by virtue of that, some potentially very gifted people who could not make any sense out of the shambles that is Irish language teaching.

    It seems to me to be against the self interest of a university to use this as applied criteria.

    Well, unless you're a foreign student, we Irish only like to disadvantage ourselves at third level education :)


  • #2130
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    It was commissioned by Tuairisc so I would expect some massaging of methodology. Clearly the PR release that was picked up by the Times verbatim in that link is very careful in the way the metrics are phrased. A sub headline is 'broad support' but the actual figure (55%) is written in plain English whereas other metrics are numerical. ;)

    I'd say such polling numbers considering the absence of any representation or organisation on the 'make it optional' side of the debate are surely a negative for the gaelgaores.
    My usual rule is that if I can't see the methodology then the data isn't really any use to anybody.


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  • #2131
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    My usual rule is that if I can't see the methodology then the data isn't really any use to anybody.

    Would be good to see the raw results at least.


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