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Asylum seeker to get college fees paid for by Department of Education.

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    #62
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Alfredo Acidic Actress wrote: »
    But she is an asylum seeker. She has no right to financial assistance from the state, legally, afaik. It would be a different situation completely if she was a refugee.

    As far as I see it she is a person! A child who is clearly very bright, determined and hard working, who should not be punished because of whatever the political situation is in her country of origin, or the choices her parents made in bringing her here.


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    It does seem like the usual clear-as-mud story alright. RTE reckons...



    Can't both be true? Is Jan O'Sullivan sponsoring her herself or something?

    I guess in the 7 hours between the different articles, it was decided that she wouldn't be able to get on the scheme. Also we don't really know that the Minister did tell her to accept that place .. going by information so far, it isn't that clear.


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    #64
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭0byme75341jo28


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    As far as I see it she is a person! A child who is clearly very bright, determined and hard working, who should not be punished because of whatever the political situation is in her country of origin, or the choices her parents made in bringing her here.

    A person who is an asylum seeker.


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    #65
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    Gallagher1 wrote: »
    She's not doing Med. She's doing physiotherapy. She wasn't allowed sit the HPAT due to being an asylum seeker(Which is an odd reason for not letting someone sit an exam).

    Thanks, sorry my mistake. Dropout rate is about the same, think healthcare at level 8 has a dropout rate of 5%. Anyways her fees would total 25,385 euro, how do people expect her to pay these fees? it's not like she could get a loan.


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    #66
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Sh*t, an influx of a thousand young people with 575+ leaving cert points... hell on earth right there, folks! Hell. On. Earth.

    An asylum seeker whose been here for five years and who gets 175 points is now to be treated the exact same as an EU/Irish citizen resident for three.


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    #67
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,549 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    RichardCeann wrote:
    Whilst the rest of the EU and especially the UK starts to really crack down on asylum shoppers, the genuises in the Dail decide to liberalise our system further.


    The UK cracking down has been a disaster and they're completely backwards in what they're doing. Comparing the new UK policies to the Irish ones is a bit ridiculous when the UK aren't going the right way about it at all.


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    #68
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Alfredo Acidic Actress wrote: »
    A person who is an asylum seeker.

    How long's she been here? Why does it take so long to sort these claims?

    Should children of asylum seeking parents recieve no education at all?


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    #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I guess in the 7 hours between the different articles, it was decided that she wouldn't be able to get on the scheme. Also we don't really know that the Minister did tell her to accept that place .. going by information so far, it isn't that clear.

    I'd have told her to accept the place, assuming it's offered.

    If she accepts an offer and subsequently finds she can't fund it (herself or with help), then she can decline it.

    But if she doesn't accept an offer when it's made then it's gone, full stop.


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    #70
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,791 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    How is the Minister trying to make this girl's case an election issue?

    Charity begins where private individuals and institutions decide it begins, and they are perfectly entitled to do so. I haven't seen the Minister promise any financial assistance. If this girl was determined enough to achieve the results she did in an Irish Leaving Certificate exam, then I personally have no problem with my tax contributions funding her further education. I'd sooner they were used to fund someone who deserves it, than someone who simply feels they are entitled to it by circumstances of their birth and have yet to actually show any sign of contributing to the economy.

    No more than this girl has.

    The difference between her and the others you reference is that it's not just an entitlement - it's a constitutional and legal right that all citizens have as citizens of this State.

    As of today, Anna has no legal right to be here. I sympathise, but that's the reality and if we're making exceptions they should go to citizends first - preferably in a way that would benefit as many as possible, not just one for a press opportunity.

    Ms O'Sullivan has seen an opportunity here to get her name in the papers as being a caring supportive public representative sympathetic to this young woman's plight.. unfortunately though the stumbling block is - again - the lack of any legal entitlement to the supports she's promising (and indeed legislating for).

    If and when she comes through the DP system and is granted asylum then by all means she should receive whatever supports are there for her, but until then this is a misguided attempt to garner a few votes in the upcoming GE.


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    #71
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Alfredo Acidic Actress wrote: »
    Very good, not exceptional.

    575 + doing well enough in the HPAT to be offered a place, while living in direct provision.

    Most people who sit the HPAT exams pay massive fees for intensive grinds and tutoring during 5th and 6th year. There's no way in hell she could afford that and she STILL got offered a place in RCSI!


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    #72
    Gallagher1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Gallagher1


    If the girl falls outside the clear criteria for college funding and isn't entitled, she shouldn't get it, as bad as that may sound. 575 points or not, the rules and criteria are there for a reason and the minute you bend them for one person is the minute the SUSI/HEAR system loses a certain integrity and other people will feel hard done by, and rightly so.

    I can't help but think, surely this would have never reached such a level of publicity if she got 475 instead of 575 and wanted to do something outside the glorified fields of Medicine/Physiotherapy/Law and co.


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    #73
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    As far as I see it she is a person! A child who is clearly very bright, determined and hard working, who should not be punished because of whatever the political situation is in her country of origin, or the choices her parents made in bringing her here.

    A nineteen year old is a child? The vast majority of Ukraine is unaffected by the current conflict and she arrived here before it even started.


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    #74
    0byme75341jo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭0byme75341jo28


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    How long's she been here? Why does it take so long to sort these claims?

    Should children of asylum seeking parents recieve no education at all?

    Two years. Even to apply for a SUSI grant you have to be resident in the state for three of the last five years. She doesn't even fit that criteria!

    That's a separate issue which I can't answer. Although I do think efforts should be made to speed up the the process.

    No, I never said that. But i do think they shouldn't receive financial aid for their education until either they've been granted asylum.


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    #75
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    conorh91 wrote: »

    This girl spent approximately three years in education in Ireland, and did far better then people educated here since baby infants. She now seeks training in a particularly valuable, publicly appreciated course of study.

    ?

    She spent two years in education here, even returning Irish citizens have to wait three years to access "free" education

    We actually have a surplus of physiotherapists in this country due to places being expanded in college, a lot emigrate.
    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    As far as I see it she is a person! A child who is clearly very bright, determined and hard working, who should not be punished because of whatever the political situation is in her country of origin, or the choices her parents made in bringing her here.

    She is not legally an EU citizen, so cannot avail of the same rights.
    otpmb wrote: »
    Thanks, sorry my mistake. Dropout rate is about the same, think healthcare at level 8 has a dropout rate of 5%. Anyways her fees would total 25,385 euro, how do people expect her to pay these fees? it's not like she could get a loan.
    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    How long's she been here? Why does it take so long to sort these claims?

    Should children of asylum seeking parents recieve no education at all?

    If she waits a year, and gets her claim through, then she is here three years, and has a right to claim.

    Plenty of students take a year out to work and fund college, surely waiting a year for her is not out of the question, so her claim is cleared and if approved, she can access what she wants?

    I think the average is 18 months to process a claim, but it can be elongated due to appeals.
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    No more than this girl has.

    The difference between her and the others you reference is that it's not just an entitlement - it's a constitutional and legal right that all citizens have as citizens of this State.

    As of today, Anna has no legal right to be here. I sympathise, but that's the reality and if we're making exceptions they should go to citizends first - preferably in a way that would benefit as many as possible, not just one for a press opportunity.

    Ms O'Sullivan has seen an opportunity here to get her name in the papers as being a caring supportive public representative sympathetic to this young woman's plight.. unfortunately though the stumbling block is - again - the lack of any legal entitlement to the supports she's promising (and indeed legislating for).

    If and when she comes through the DP system and is granted asylum then by all means she should receive whatever supports are there for her, but until then this is a misguided attempt to garner a few votes in the upcoming GE.

    Agreed.


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    #76
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    Asylum-seeking students in the system for five years will now be granted equal third-level access as Irish and EU citizens resident here for three years previous.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asylum-seeker-leaving-cert-students-abandoned

    Whilst the rest of the EU and especially the UK starts to really crack down on asylum shoppers, the genuises in the Dail decide to liberalise our system further.

    We've already seen a surge in the numbers coming here due to the UK cracking down. Now we're offering another carrot.



    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/young-pakistani-men-flee-uk-and-flood-into-ireland-31248564.html

    The relevant immigration quangos have been lobbying for this for a while now. They got their poster girl when the results were released and ran with it. Now they have gotten what they wanted.

    This girl is an exceptional student and good luck to her. But it's not just about this one girl. It's about the wider picture, the precedent and legislation that this will now set.


    You're not really comparing like with like there, are you? You're being purposely disingenuous in equating asylum seekers with 'asylum shoppers'.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gallagher1 wrote: »
    ....the rules and criteria are there for a reason....

    What's the reason?


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RichardCeann wrote: »
    A nineteen year old is a child? The vast majority of Ukraine is unaffected by the current conflict and she arrived here before it even started.

    But we don't know why they had to leave Ukraine - as has been mentioned, they came here seeking asylum before that particular conflict happened, afaik, so there could be something else that is preventing them to ever return safely or without their lives in danger.

    Also.. I keep having to force myself to stop adding in a "the" when I'm referring to Ukraine.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But we don't know why they had to leave Ukraine....

    And we also don't know how she suddenly put on two years and became 19.

    Just saying. ;)


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    #80
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,791 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    And something else I just spotted in the RTE article I linked above...
    Asylum seekers to be exempt from prescription charges

    Following examination by the Department of Health and the Health Service Executive, asylum seekers living in direct provision are to be exempted from prescription charges.

    The Department is currently making legislative changes so this change can be implemented at the earliest possible opportunity.

    Again, paid for by who? The same people who are paying higher prescription charges themselves and may be struggling to do so - after all, wasn't Leo on the news recently talking about the cost of them (conveniently forgetting he's part of the Government which has been increasing them in the first place, but that's Leo for you - always up for a populist soundbite).

    The bottom line is that we are a small country with limited (and still stretched) resources - regardless of all the "good news" emanating from Government and their proxies about the Recovery (completely coincidental that this occurs a few months out from the Budget and that there's a GE on the horizon) - and if there's extra resources to go around they should be supporting those citizens and taxpayers first.


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    #81
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Alfredo Acidic Actress wrote: »
    It actually would be, for Irish students. Just imagine the points inflation.

    That said, a thousand is a huge huge huge exaggeration.

    Indeed it is a huge exaggeration, but considering that asylum seekers don't typically go to the best of schools, the Irish kids would have had the same opportunity (with a leg up regarding language in most cases) as the foreigners. That's the nature of capitalism, dog eat dog and survival of the fittest.

    That said, the entire concept of the LC is a sick joke that should have been overhauled decades and decades back. Was explaining to some co workers here (Toronto) how it works, and they thought it was hilarious since someone could fail every class and do nothing their whole way through school, then find an effective way of cheating for the LC, get 550+ points and effectively have their pick of the field in terms of where they want to go and what they want to do.

    Then again, I guess the above is also kind of a microcosm of many successful peoples' careers, so maybe it is good preparation! :pac:


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    #82
    knird evol
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭knird evol


    I don't like the magic money tree connotation in the semantics of the "state" is paying. Irish people will pay for the girls education. If this comes to pass she should be very grateful. It's the money you and me earn day in day out that pays for her education. She may or may not practice medicine in this country.

    There's always this negativity and guilt tripping surrounding these issues. Like we should be gratefully relieved that we've just about prevented ourselves from being rabid racists. Instead of an acknowledgement that we've taken in a lot of people from the far flung reaches of the world and looked after them really well.
    If the girl is trained to be a Doctor on the coin of the Irish people it is not something to be weighed lightly.


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And we also don't know how she suddenly put on two years and became 19.

    Just saying. ;)

    ... what?


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    #84
    Gallagher1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Gallagher1


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What's the reason?

    To make it clear and distinguish between who gets (deserves) the funding(and at what levels) and who doesn't, why else?

    Whether or not asylum seekers deserve it is not my argument. Im pointing out that if she doesn't fit the criteria that is set, she doesn't deserve preferential treatment.


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    #85
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    How long's she been here? Why does it take so long to sort these claims?

    Should children of asylum seeking parents recieve no education at all?

    She's been here two years and it doesn't take very long at all to reach a decision after an asylum claim is lodged. The problem is that the decision is not on that the claimant likes so the appeal process we go.

    The median time for processing applications in 2014 was 15.3 weeks for non-prioritised applications and 4.4 weeks for prioritised applications (Source: ORAC Annual Report 2014)

    The median time for processing substantive appeals (cases involving an oral hearing) in 2014 was approximately 49 weeks and 38 weeks for accelerated appeals (appeals on the papers) (Source: Refugee Appeals Tribunal Annual Report 2014)

    If she has been in the system for two years then the probability is that her family's application has failed at both stages. It is likely that the asylum applications refusal is now being challenged by JR in the High Court.

    What happens if that is rejected too and a notice to leave the state is issued to the family whilst she is studying here? This scenario is very likely of occurring. Let them all stay as their daughter scored an excellent leaving and is now studying?

    There's absolutely no joined up thinking in this kip. The rules and regulations seem to be only guidelines. Orchestra a semi decent media campaign or get some quangos involved and away you go.


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gallagher1 wrote: »
    To make it clear and distinguish between who gets (deserves) the funding(and at what levels) and who doesn't, why else?

    You said the rules were there for a reason. Do you know what the reason is in this instance?


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    #87
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ... what?

    You were answering someone who for some reason seems to think this student is two years older than she actually is.


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    #88
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    The thing people are failing to grasp, completely, is that as well as being denied the ability to apply for financial assistance she and her parents are doubly denied the ability to work to earn the money for her or parents to pay for her education themselves.

    So basically you have a load of mouth breathers giving out about "forediners take all our money" while giving zero alternatives to the current system.

    Usual AH idiocy. It's like reading the comment section of the fecking Daily Mail.


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    #89
    otpmb
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭otpmb


    Stheno wrote: »
    Plenty of students take a year out to work and fund college, surely waiting a year for her is not out of the question, so her claim is cleared and if approved, she can access what she wants?

    She's an asylum seeker so she can't work.


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    #90
    RichardCeann
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 647 ✭✭✭RichardCeann


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You're not really comparing like with like there, are you? You're being purposely disingenuous in equating asylum seekers with 'asylum shoppers'.

    These people 'fled' Ukraine before the conflict started. They have been in the process for over two years so their claims have been rejected at least twice.

    I will call them what I see them.


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    #91
    Kayleigh..
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Kayleigh..


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    575 + doing well enough in the HPAT to be offered a place, while living in direct provision.

    As an asylum seeker she was barred from taking the HPAT test so didn't do "well enough to be offered a place", also offers don't come out until Monday, so she hasn't been offered one.


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