Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

deisedude · 09-08-2015 07:33PM

Can't complain, we never looked like winning. We are still lacking that bit of firepower up front, Brick and Dillon offer zero scoring threat. Very disappointed that with 10 minutes to go we still played a sweeper instead of pushing more bodies forward.

TGV · 09-08-2015 07:43PM

ovalu wrote: »

Good year, a lot of positives, disappointing end. Derek needs to move away from his De la Salle school bias and see the bigger picture, everyone tried hard but Barry Coughlan the worst player I have ever seen play for waterford, Jake Dillon and Philip Mahony also only starting due to where they went to school

Think that is a bit unfair coughlan had done very little wrong all year. He did not cost us the game today. If you don't score goals you won't win against KK. It is disappointing but overall it's been a good year, next year they will be stronger and a bit wiser.

archieknox · 09-08-2015 08:17PM

Nothing lost in that defeat only lessons to be learned. I critised Derek at the start of the year and as I've said before we have come on some amount since. Probably the system will have to be tweeked again for next year as most counties will have done their homework on us(bar Cork as they had 2 bites at the cherry and failed miserably!!)but the experience gained by the youngsters will stand to them next year and I'm sure a few more players will be added to the squad along with some more making way. We are a bit off the top two yet and to be honest maybe 6pts defeat today probably flattered us but at least there's renewed optimism within the county and the future is bright so thanks to the players and management for a most enjoyable year,one that ended with an national title and one where Waterford as a hurling county can again be considered a force to be reckoned with.

conditioned games · 09-08-2015 08:35PM

The biggest difference between the 2 teams was the movement in the forwards and also kk had one or two forwards that can put the ball over with limited space. I don't think we're that far off them, if the management can learn from the likes of kk and Tipp and some of our younger forwards get stronger competing in the air then there is an all Ireland in that team.

When the kk goal keeper was pucking the ball out their wing forwards were inter changing and so were running on to the ball. Our forwards were always static when sok was hitting the ball out which favoured the defender. There is room for improvement in that area. The sweeper at the back I definitely would keep. Overall it has been a good year with a national league, a young team and a new system that works at the back but improvements to be made up front for next year.

TGV · 09-08-2015 08:40PM

conditioned games wrote: »

The biggest difference between the 2 teams was the movement in the forwards and also kk had one or two forwards that can put the ball over with limited space. I don't think we're that far off them, if the management can learn from the likes of kk and Tipp and some of our younger forwards get stronger competing in the air then there is an all Ireland in that team.

When the kk goal keeper was pucking the ball out their wing forwards were inter changing and so were running on to the ball. Our forwards were always static when sok was hitting the ball out which favoured the defender. There is room for improvement in that area. The sweeper at the back I definitely would keep. Overall it has been a good year with a national league, a young team and a new system that works at the back but improvements to be made up front for next year.

KK had total dominance in the air, Dublin also used it but not to same effect. It is something Waterford can work on and improve.

rebel girl 15 · 09-08-2015 08:54PM

Have to say this year has to be classed as a much improved year for Waterford, compared to last year where the championship lasted four matches including a replay. A proper system of hurling, some fantastic young hurlers who will have learned a lot

The system is working, reminds me of Donegal in the way that McGuinness implemented his strategy, iirc the year before they won the All Ireland they were beaten in the semi final, then the following year tweaked the system to include the forward element and scoring and delivered success.

National title in the bag is nothing to be sniffed at

thinkstoomuch1 · 09-08-2015 09:13PM

ovalu wrote: »

Good year, a lot of positives, disappointing end. Derek needs to move away from his De la Salle school bias and see the bigger picture, everyone tried hard but Barry Coughlan the worst player I have ever seen play for waterford, Jake Dillon and Philip Mahony also only starting due to where they went to school

I certainly wouldn't agree that coughlan is the worst waterford player ever
He's a good player in he's own right
However I had fears after tippeary league game and posted as such that as a full back he wasn't great in top teams could expose him and cody no doubt knew this as he was targeted and the sweeper that normally protects him kk cleverly switched the angle and purpose of the attack with tempo and purpose that even de burcs who had a magnificent game in a brilliant season couldn't offer the protection to coughlan all the time and one v one I think he can be turned

Just cause you get by against other teams doesn't mean you will v kk

I must give McGrath credit for moving Gleasson to midfield and he was outstanding today
However he has to do the same with other areas of the team and learn from today

I still would remain to be convinced that waterford will change the system to attacking next year in down by few points ten minutes to go They didn't and imo I think McGrath success in improved from last year means he is too loyal to this system and once you get a lead on waterford the system is struggling against the top teams

While a good point has been made in correlation to mcguimness doing similar in year two with Donegal he showed in the ist year signs he was going to attack
This low scoring from play hasn't been just a one off on today, it's been evident all during the league with waterford

McGrath to be fair give a good post interview in he immediately recognised the challenge next year brings and it's a different challenge and one waterford will carry expectation next year and have to deliver and as under twenty one proved waterford don't do favourite tags well

Yes there is talent there but time will tell if waterford evolve in to a defence counter attacking team and also the next challenge is waterford will be expected to maintain division one status next year and be favourite in most games
Division one hurling should improve waterford no end but to do that lessons must be learned from today

There definitely has been progress made and McGrath deserves another term but at the same time I wouldn't be giving him a three year deal like limerick last year based on one season
He should be given another year with a review then as there's still a lot of work to do to join the likes of kk etc

culbaire · 09-08-2015 09:20PM

TGV wrote: »

Think that is a bit unfair coughlan had done very little wrong all year. He did not cost us the game today. If you don't score goals you won't win against KK. It is disappointing but overall it's been a good year, next year they will be stronger and a bit wiser.

I have never been a fan of the system.
Waterford cant score goals against the likes of Kilkenny because of the famous system. Maurice Shanahan was being marked by three KK backs at times today. We had balls driven in from distance and nobody inside, at times. Forwards have to shoot from too far out in many cases. A farcical situation. With the right tactics today weaknesses in the KK full- backline could have been exploited.

Waterford is using the sweeper system to cover a glaring weakness in the full back-line. Management teams in other counties are now well aware of that weakness. That's the blunt reality. Under this famous system players run themselves into the ground. They ran out of steam with ten minutes to go today. Players were in many cases exhausted. There are three player on the team who have not performed this year. The other 12 are carrying them. Yet the management keeps picking them. I guarantee you they will be selected again next year and by August next year we will be in the same position unless management drops this loyalty to some players who are not performing. What has happened ground hurling?

It would be churlish not to admit that a lot of progress has been made this year. If management learns from today, drops misplaced loyalty to some players and addresses the weakness in the full- backline, we can win an All Ireland. We wont win an All Ireland with the current system. It is good enough to beat the likes of Dublin. However it will fail against the likes of KK and Tipperary. Eradication of the weakness in the full backline will mean less need for a sweeper. We will have more players in full forward line and will be capable of scoring goals against top class opposition. Some new additions are needed to the panel.

PS
With fifteen minutes to go today Waterford should have dumped the system and gone 15 against 15. We had nothing to lose. Yet we persisted with the system, the time ebbed away and out we went until next year. The worst that could have happened is that we would lose. The KK full backline would have come under huge pressure. I have no doubt that we could have scored goals.

Tramore84 · 09-08-2015 09:26PM

Proud that of the team and the way they stuck at it. Fair dues to the younger guys - Dunford , DeBurca and Gleeson were fantastic. Team with more experience and know-how won today but bright future for the deise.

Don't stop beleaavin!.

Royal Legend · 09-08-2015 09:27PM

Very proud of the lads, came up against probably the best team of all time today and went toe to toe for the most part. we gave handed them 5 scores, mostly from pressure and inexperience, we will have learnt a lot from today, these lads have good heads on their shoulders and will only get stronger for this defeat.
For all the talk about TJ and Richie, Tadgh must also be in the running for hurler of the year this year as well.

thinkstoomuch1 · 09-08-2015 09:28PM

culbaire wrote: »

I have never been a fan of the system.
Waterford cant score goals against the likes of Kilkenny because of the famous system. Maurice Shanahan was being marked by three KK backs at times today. We had balls driven in from distance and nobody inside, at times. Forwards have to shoot from too far out in many cases. A farcical situation. With the right tactics today weaknesses in the KK full- backline could have been exploited.

Waterford is using the sweeper system to cover a glaring weakness in the full back-line. Management teams in other counties are now well aware of that weakness. That's the blunt reality. Under this famous system players run themselves into the ground. They ran out of steam with ten minutes to go today. Players were in many cases exhausted. There are three player on the team who have not performed this year. The other 12 are carrying them. Yet the management keeps picking them. I guarantee you they will be selected again next year and by August next year we will be in the same position unless management drops this loyalty to some players who are not performing. What has happened ground hurling?

It would be churlish not to admit that a lot of progress has been made this year. If management learns from today, drops misplaced loyalty to some players and addresses the weakness in the full- backline, we can win an All Ireland. We wont win an All Ireland with the current system. It is good enough to beat the likes of Dublin. However it will fail against the likes of KK and Tipperary. Eradication of the weakness in the full backline will mean less need for a sweeper. We will have more players in full forward line and will be capable of scoring goals against top class opposition. Some new additions are needed to the panel.

I'd agree and you make a lot of good points
If waterford find a full back they can play still the sweeper but not as deep
There is talent to definitely progress however I think a key next year is a winin the under twenty one in munster to give the young players confidence to win at senior
Minor win on its own won't do that
Key next year is maintain division one in the league
Find a full back
Two more forwards and change the system in keeping with the concept of it but evolving it
Munster under twenty one has to be a target as it's the main year from the minor three years ago and win munster there guaranteed an all ireland final in munster play ulster next year
I think the confidence has been affected since the under twenty game also slightly and imo waterford must win munster next year at under twenty one more so than munster at senior

I'd be trying the brick at full back if needs be as he is not a forward
They should try different options at full back next year

TGV · 09-08-2015 09:28PM

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't agree that coughlan is the worst waterford player ever
He's a good player in he's own right
However I had fears after tippeary league game and posted as such that as a full back he wasn't great in top teams could expose him and cody no doubt knew this as he was targeted and the sweeper that normally protects him kk cleverly switched the angle and purpose of the attack with tempo and purpose that even de burcs who had a magnificent game in a brilliant season couldn't offer the protection to coughlan all the time and one v one I think he can be turned

Just cause you get by against other teams doesn't mean you will v kk

I must give McGrath credit for moving Gleasson to midfield and he was outstanding today
However he has to do the same with other areas of the team and learn from today

I still would remain to be convinced that waterford will change the system to attacking next year in down by few points ten minutes to go They didn't and imo I think McGrath success in improved from last year means he is too loyal to this system and once you get a lead on waterford the system is struggling against the top teams

While a good point has been made in correlation to mcguimness doing similar in year two with Donegal he showed in the ist year signs he was going to attack
This low scoring from play hasn't been just a one off on today, it's been evident all during the league with waterford

McGrath to be fair give a good post interview in he immediately recognised the challenge next year brings and it's a different challenge and one waterford will carry expectation next year and have to deliver and as under twenty one proved waterford don't do favourite tags well

Yes there is talent there but time will tell if waterford evolve in to a defence counter attacking team and also the next challenge is waterford will be expected to maintain division one status next year and be favourite in most games
Division one hurling should improve waterford no end but to do that lessons must be learned from today

There definitely has been progress made and McGrath deserves another term but at the same time I wouldn't be giving him a three year deal like limerick last year based on one season
He should be given another year with a review then as there's still a lot of work to do to join the likes of kk etc

I disagree on coughlan two guys going for the same ball is not smart but it happens. As for McGrath he is not far off manager of the year and this talk of contracts is rubbish . He has had a very good year, a happy camp and a young developing team. Give the guy a break. Yes we are a bit off kk and Tipp and the results speak for themselves but only be 4 or 5 points and there is definitely room for improvement. Also TdB and Gleeson must be in running for all stars or young player or the year. ....... You want to discuss Cork

TGV · 09-08-2015 09:34PM

culbaire wrote: »

I have never been a fan of the system.
Waterford cant score goals against the likes of Kilkenny because of the famous system. Maurice Shanahan was being marked by three KK backs at times today. We had balls driven in from distance and nobody inside, at times. Forwards have to shoot from too far out in many cases. A farcical situation. With the right tactics today weaknesses in the KK full- backline could have been exploited.

Waterford is using the sweeper system to cover a glaring weakness in the full back-line. Management teams in other counties are now well aware of that weakness. That's the blunt reality. Under this famous system players run themselves into the ground. They ran out of steam with ten minutes to go today. Players were in many cases exhausted. There are three player on the team who have not performed this year. The other 12 are carrying them. Yet the management keeps picking them. I guarantee you they will be selected again next year and by August next year we will be in the same position unless management drops this loyalty to some players who are not performing. What has happened ground hurling?

It would be churlish not to admit that a lot of progress has been made this year. If management learns from today, drops misplaced loyalty to some players and addresses the weakness in the full- backline, we can win an All Ireland. We wont win an All Ireland with the current system. It is good enough to beat the likes of Dublin. However it will fail against the likes of KK and Tipperary. Eradication of the weakness in the full backline will mean less need for a sweeper. We will have more players in full forward line and will be capable of scoring goals against top class opposition. Some new additions are needed to the panel.

PS
With fifteen minutes to go today Waterford should have dumped the system and gone 15 against 15. We had nothing to lose. Yet we persisted with the system, the time ebbed away and out we went until next year. The worst that could have happened is that we would lose. The KK full backline would have come under huge pressure. I have no doubt that we could have scored goals.

So who would you put in full back? Without our system in the first 15 mins we would have shipped another two goals?

thinkstoomuch1 · 09-08-2015 09:43PM

TGV wrote: »

I disagree on coughlan two guys going for the same ball is not smart but it happens. As for McGrath he is not far off manager of the year and this talk of contracts is rubbish . He has had a very good year, a happy camp and a young developing team. Give the guy a break. Yes we are a bit off kk and Tipp and the results speak for themselves but only be 4 or 5 points and there is definitely room for improvement. Also TdB and Gleeson must be in running for all stars or young player or the year. ....... You want to discuss Cork

Absolutely any time you want to talk regards cork come to the Cork thread I've no problem telling you the problems we have
I'm only interested in discussing the waterford scene in this thread

Id agree regard Gleasson and Burke and barron has proven me wrong in he done well today

I don't think McGrath can be given management of the year
Yes a league was won but the championship four games loosing two and this system that was praised by many in two games has shown to be too predicable

If Galway get to an all ireland final then they can claim cunningjham deserves it
Tippeary also with o shea
Imo if kk win all ireland cody has to get it as the hunger, skill and reinventing of the team again he deserves it
The point with management of the year awards I don't rate them if I'm honest

Team win all ireland shows the great management
Some times too much is made of these things when there based on circumstances than reality

For example ireland in rubgy are now a top two world rankings in words
But truth be told many pundits would not agree
In essence Australia should be as they beat the all blacks
Ireland will be well prepared for the world cup but classed as top two imo will mean nothing to schmidt if they don't do history and get to a semi final

My point is i don't rate much in these awards
Waterford didn't get to an all ireland final so yes it was a good year but it was nothing more
McGrath as I said should get another year but no point in a big contract as of yet

Ye were more than four or five points off kk today now let's be honest

They were pulling up in the end and a waterford poster said on the kk thread waterford were bit flattered by the score line

Waterford had not one goal chance
Kk missed two and cody was never worried during the game as no subs til late
Last year v limerick when limerick gave him a scare he made the subs after half time
Once kk took the lead they were always in the second half in control and kk were no way in full flow
Just watch them in the all ireland final there is more in them

HatchetMan7 · 09-08-2015 09:49PM

1. S O Keeffe
2. S. Daniels
3. S Fives
4. N Connors
5. D Fives
6. T de Burca
7. P Mahoney
8. K Moran
9. J Barron
10. Sh Bennett
11. P Mahoney
12. A Gleeson
13. P Curran
14. M Shanahan
14. C Dunford

Thats what the team might look like over the next few years. I would say Derek should get them fit early again for next year and will play 6 in the forward line through the league and see what happens. I will be surprised if we play with sweeper next year as we need to focus on developing our attacking play badly.

TGV · 09-08-2015 09:54PM

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Absolutely any time you want to talk regards cork come to the Cork thread I've no problem telling you the problems we have
I'm only interested in discussing the waterford scene in this thread

Id agree regard Gleasson and Burke and barron has proven me wrong in he done well today

I don't think McGrath can be given management of the year
Yes a league was won but the championship four games loosing two and this system that was praised by many in two games has shown to be too predicable

If Galway get to an all ireland final then they can claim cunningjham deserves it
Tippeary also with o shea
Imo if kk win all ireland cody has to get it as the hunger, skill and reinventing of the team again he deserves it
The point with management of the year awards I don't rate them if I'm honest

Team win all ireland shows the great management
Some times too much is made of these things when there based on circumstances than reality

For example ireland in rubgy are now a top two world rankings in words
But truth be told many pundits would not agree
In essence Australia should be as they beat the all blacks
Ireland will be well prepared for the world cup but classed as top two imo will mean nothing to schmidt if they don't do history and get to a semi final

My point is i don't rate much in these awards
Waterford didn't get to an all ireland final so yes it was a good year but it was nothing more
McGrath as I said should get another year but no point in a big contract as of yet

Ye were more than four or five points off kk today now let's be honest

They were pulling up in the end and a waterford poster said on the kk thread waterford were bit flattered by the score line

Waterford had not one goal chance
Kk missed two and cody was never worried during the game as no subs til late
Last year v limerick when limerick gave him a scare he made the subs after half time
Once kk took the lead they were always in the second half in control and kk were no way in full flow
Just watch them in the all ireland final there is more in them[/quote

Maybe let's wait and see. Funny how you always arrive on this forum after we loose. As for division one next year I don't think we need to be too worried. Do you think cork are a division one team based on this years performance?

HatchetMan7 · 09-08-2015 09:58PM

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Absolutely any time you want to talk regards cork come to the Cork thread I've no problem telling you the problems we have
I'm only interested in discussing the waterford scene in this thread

Id agree regard Gleasson and Burke and barron has proven me wrong in he done well today

I don't think McGrath can be given management of the year
Yes a league was won but the championship four games loosing two and this system that was praised by many in two games has shown to be too predicable

If Galway get to an all ireland final then they can claim cunningjham deserves it
Tippeary also with o shea
Imo if kk win all ireland cody has to get it as the hunger, skill and reinventing of the team again he deserves it
The point with management of the year awards I don't rate them if I'm honest

Team win all ireland shows the great management
Some times too much is made of these things when there based on circumstances than reality

For example ireland in rubgy are now a top two world rankings in words
But truth be told many pundits would not agree
In essence Australia should be as they beat the all blacks
Ireland will be well prepared for the world cup but classed as top two imo will mean nothing to schmidt if they don't do history and get to a semi final

My point is i don't rate much in these awards
Waterford didn't get to an all ireland final so yes it was a good year but it was nothing more
McGrath as I said should get another year but no point in a big contract as of yet

Ye were more than four or five points off kk today now let's be honest

They were pulling up in the end and a waterford poster said on the kk thread waterford were bit flattered by the score line

Waterford had not one goal chance
Kk missed two and cody was never worried during the game as no subs til late
Last year v limerick when limerick gave him a scare he made the subs after half time
Once kk took the lead they were always in the second half in control and kk were no way in full flow
Just watch them in the all ireland final there is more in them

To be fair i would say Kilkenny didn't bring on subs simply because they don't have a strong bench like other years. If the likes of Richie power and Michael Rice were fit and on the bench today they would have came on midway through the 2nd half. Obviously if Richie power was fit he would have started but you see what i mean. Kilkennys bench is their biggest weakness this year. But fair play to Kilkenny today they were brilliant at closing down our backs when trying to clear the ball and they are streets ahead when it comes to winning their own ball in the forward line.

chinguetti · 09-08-2015 09:59PM

Well another disappointing day in Croker v the Cats. If you were given a league title and semi final in January, you'ld have taken it. But, but, but...

KK were poor today, a dozen wides and didn't take their goal chances but still they were only in 3rd gear at times. I was baffled that with 10 minutes to go, they didn't throw off the system and go for broke. Why not? They had nothing to lose. Watching Shanahan tipping over a point with 8 minutes to go when 6 points down was annoying (I could say worse).

Progress has been made, a huge amount but unless this system is adapted to give more scores against the top sides like KK and Tipp, the system is flawed as you can't score goals once you fall behind. The driving of high balls into a 1 man forward line was pointless and goaless.

robopaddy2 · 09-08-2015 10:37PM

chinguetti wrote: »

Well another disappointing day in Croker v the Cats. If you were given a league title and semi final in January, you'ld have taken it. But, but, but...

KK were poor today, a dozen wides and didn't take their goal chances but still they were only in 3rd gear at times. I was baffled that with 10 minutes to go, they didn't throw off the system and go for broke. Why not? They had nothing to lose. Watching Shanahan tipping over a point with 8 minutes to go when 6 points down was annoying (I could say worse).

Progress has been made, a huge amount but unless this system is adapted to give more scores against the top sides like KK and Tipp, the system is flawed as you can't score goals once you fall behind. The driving of high balls into a 1 man forward line was pointless and goaless.

Yea look its time to take a more attacking approach. Ken McGrath said as much in the studio after the game. This system will not win us an All Ireland and not enough to succeed against the top teams. But that is for another day. Today is not a day for that discussion. Its about thanking the players for their efforts. they left nothing out on that field again today. The commitment, fight and fearlessness they have shown this year is something else. When the dust settles on another disappointing defeat against the cats we will reflect with great pride where this team has come from in 12 months.
My heart went out to brick walsh today. He looked a disjointed figure walking off the field but maintained his dignity in congratulating all the kk lads on their win. Theres a man who has sweated blood and tears for his county over the years. I just fear it could be the last we see of him in the white and blue. He had a tough afternoon today. I hope not as it would be a shame to see another great warrior retire without the big one to his name. He has been immense all year and the leadership he has shown to this young team is not to be underestimated.

HatchetMan7 · 09-08-2015 10:43PM

chinguetti wrote: »

Well another disappointing day in Croker v the Cats. If you were given a league title and semi final in January, you'ld have taken it. But, but, but...

KK were poor today, a dozen wides and didn't take their goal chances but still they were only in 3rd gear at times. I was baffled that with 10 minutes to go, they didn't throw off the system and go for broke. Why not? They had nothing to lose. Watching Shanahan tipping over a point with 8 minutes to go when 6 points down was annoying (I could say worse).

Progress has been made, a huge amount but unless this system is adapted to give more scores against the top sides like KK and Tipp, the system is flawed as you can't score goals once you fall behind. The driving of high balls into a 1 man forward line was pointless and goaless.

I'd disagree that Kilkenny were in 3rd gear. I can't see any Kilkenny player playing in 3rd gear when Cody is standing on the sideline. Cody is ruthless and he'd have no problem pulling a player off if he wasn't giving 100% effort.
Plus would a Kilkenny player take that kind of chance when he could lose his starting place for the all ireland, absolutely no chance. When you train as hard for 9/10 months of the year and go out in Croke park in a semi final your focused on giving it everything. Can Kilkenny play better absolutely and so can Waterford but it wasn't for the lack of trying that's for sure.

culbaire · 09-08-2015 10:56PM

TGV wrote: »

So who would you put in full back? Without our system in the first 15 mins we would have shipped another two goals?

We need a hurling full back that can come out and make long clearances. Possibly Tadhg De Burca might make a good full back. He certainly has the hurling skill. The Brick could be tried at full back if he could be convinced to mark tightly. Might fill the position for a few years. The League should be used. Barry Coughlan needs to make a huge improvement in hurling skills to fill the position adequately.

thinkstoomuch1 · 09-08-2015 10:58PM

culbaire wrote: »

We need a hurling full back that can come out and make long clearances. Possibly Tadhg De Burca might make a good full back. He certainly has the hurling skill. The Brick could be tried at full back if he could be convinced to mark tightly. Might fill the position for a few years. The League should be used. Barry Coughlan needs to make a huge improvement in hurling skills to fill the position adequately.

I think the brick like I said earlier would be an outstanding full back

Burke should stay as the sweeper but not as deep

culbaire · 09-08-2015 11:29PM

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I think the brick like I said earlier would be an outstanding full back

Burke should stay as the sweeper but not as deep

Might be worth a try in League.

Ropaire · 10-08-2015 12:04AM

Fair play to Kilkenny, I thought they were slipping a bit from the level they were playing at the last few years but they had the self belief to dig it out. I don't like them, but you have to admire them, they're some team! I thought they should have won by a lot more today only for a bit of luck on our part to be honest.

First half was a battle and the goal was the difference, we never got going second half though and we seemed to come apart at the seams a bit. Not sure if that was due to the work rate they were putting in or the intensity of the game, or both, and we could prob have used a few subs early in the half. Surprised we didn't try pushing up a bit more as Kilkenny were pulling away from us for all of the second half and we were constantly dropping shots short to their keeper. Whatever about the wide count, the number of shots we hit that fell short was nuts and it cost us a fair few scores.

Having Maurice up there on his own swamped in Kilkenny backs was disheartening to see, esp when Brian Gavin wasn't really interested in giving frees to either team for some blatant fouls. We could have been sharper on the line and tried going more direct when we were falling away a bit, but we were second best on the day and no real complaints at the result tbh.

It'll stand to these young lads long term though, massive progress made this year and credit to the management and players for the unrecognisable displays compared to the shambles of the year before. When you realise that alot of these players are barely out of their teens and think of the physical development they've still got to make then the future is bright as long as we can maintain the level of progress we've made. A bit of work on the attacking side of our game is needed, but our forwards have shown flashes of what they can do when given the chance, and with the backs as strong as they are there is a platform there to build on and hopefully it's utilised to the full. Maybe we need a plan B for when we need to chase a game, but now isn't the time to think of that kinda stuff as there's plenty of time to look at this over the winter.

Also delighted to see Ken on the panel when I got home and had a quick flick through the game, no harm to have one of our own in there. And is Shane Bennetts head photoshopped onto someone elses body in the player intro graphic thing at the start of the game?

Deise Hurler · 10-08-2015 01:28AM

Really sickened after today. Thought this Waterford team was going in the right direction but no I'm not so sure.

What really pissed me off was that Kilkenny were there for the taking today but didn't feel that players and management ever believed that we would beat them. That really bothers me. It was like as I'd they were happy to not get hammered. We could be still in Croke Park and Eoin Murphy could still be waiting to make his first save. We will never win anything until things change. Could never see a Kilkenny man tapping over a 21 yard free when ure team us losing by 2 goals with 3 minutes left. This team needs to believe in themselves more if they are ever to win
Liam McCarthy.

HatchetMan7 · 10-08-2015 02:07AM

Promoted out of division 1b.
Won the league.
Unbeaten in the league.
Munster final appearance.
All Ireland semi final appearance.

Considering where we were last year this is a big step forward in the right direction.
Clearly the main objective from last year was to stop conceding goals, get up to peak fitness and maximise work rate.
By and large we've achieved these goals, but for next year we need to concentrate on attack.
Guys like de Burca, Gleeson, Barron, Bennetts, Dunford, Curran, and Devine are all 18-22 years of age. Its still going to take another 3/4 years minimum for these players to peak physically which i think you could see the difference physically today against Kilkenny especially in the last 15 min of the match.
Overall if your a Waterford supporter and you are not happy with this years progress then i'm afraid you need a reality check because no Waterford team has won a senior all ireland in 55 years. This team is a work in progress. A small bit of respect, gratitude and patience needed over the next few years.

Fair play to the players and management for a huge effort put in this year and once we learn from our mistakes and improve for next year that's all we can ask.

deiseach · 10-08-2015 09:30AM

There wasn't any system, formation, or combination that could have won us that game yesterday. Maybe a few points struck here and there at crucial times then the last great pileup in the box might have brought us victory but a far more unlikely scenario coming to pass would have been from the other end of the spectrum, with Kilkenny landing their two gilt-edged goal chances - the one from Ger Aylward was a howler, it was harder to miss - and completely stuffing us. While Cody is in charge we are going to struggle to bridge the gap. Still, this was the first chance for this team, not the last. Thanks to all concerned for a stirring year, and roll on 2016.

hurler on de ditch · 10-08-2015 10:46AM

HatchetMan7 wrote: »

To be fair i would say Kilkenny didn't bring on subs simply because they don't have a strong bench like other years. If the likes of Richie power and Michael Rice were fit and on the bench today they would have came on midway through the 2nd half. Obviously if Richie power was fit he would have started but you see what i mean. Kilkennys bench is their biggest weakness this year. But fair play to Kilkenny today they were brilliant at closing down our backs when trying to clear the ball and they are streets ahead when it comes to winning their own ball in the forward line.

after the 2008 final Cody was asked about the non use of subs two in all ,James Mc Garry (bit of a hard one there )and not sure who replaced M,Comerford (broken toe)any way ,his answer was that, contrary to what people believe, its a really hard job to pick 15 fellas to win an All Ireland ,and they were winning,so why change it ,any other county would have emptied the bench to give lads a run BUT not Cody he left them sitting on the bench it was was a three in a row ,WHY? because he made them suffer and it was a message that if you want to wear that stripy jersey well you need to up your game and work and train hard over the winter , Cody does not give you a jersey easy ,he makes you want to kill yourself to get into one of his teams ,SIMPLE REALLY ,its was;nt about a poor bench it ,its about a system ,a system built on trust that every man who takes the field is trusted ,unlike some systems where you need extra defenders to mind people who are not trusted 100% to do their own job ,

thinkstoomuch1 · 10-08-2015 12:11PM

Deise Hurler wrote: »

Really sickened after today. Thought this Waterford team was going in the right direction but no I'm not so sure.

What really pissed me off was that Kilkenny were there for the taking today but didn't feel that players and management ever believed that we would beat them. That really bothers me. It was like as I'd they were happy to not get hammered. We could be still in Croke Park and Eoin Murphy could still be waiting to make his first save. We will never win anything until things change. Could never see a Kilkenny man tapping over a 21 yard free when ure team us losing by 2 goals with 3 minutes left. This team needs to believe in themselves more if they are ever to win
Liam McCarthy.

I wouldn't agree with your view kk were there for the taking
Nothing backs that up in kk have been ruthless against Wexford, second gear v Galway and much the same yesterday

They only went behind early but once they took control waterford were never going to win
Kk were rusty in the ist half but once they upped it in the second half they won well and missed at least two goals chances while waterford didn't create one and never looked like it

I agree concerns would remain for the future however I must give McGrath credit for this year while I was never a fan at the start of the year
He has made improvements and credit due and deserve a new term
He said today in the paper he will only take it if he gets reassurances from the board in he wants to prepare team as best he can
Fair points and he's correct

Is he the man to lead waterford to an all ireland final the ist since eight years ago or win it time will tell
There is talent in hurling there no doubt but under twenty one has to be improved next year

Waterford cant become like other teams one good year followed by not evolving
Limerick were solid team under Allen despite huge hope but never pushed on and like last year where they performed better than waterford against kk but never evolved this year

Cork after the all ireland final never pushed on
Reason were huge problems in both cork and limerick that were never solved and they believed they were close to a break thorough but weren't
Waterford are now similar imo in progress was made and credit due however still lot of questions to be answered in can they win an all ireland

I agree with you on belief and that's why it's paramount waterford win under twenty one next year
Have win one here before they imo win senior
This year under twenty one was poor and limerick proved new management year one you can win munster so vital waterford win next year munster under twenty one as win and it's ulster in a semi so an all ireland final is a realistic chance for who ever wins munster

All managers when they build a system some times they stick to it and fail to evolve, the ones that are successful are the ones that evolve
Allen and jbm done that with out realising circumstances played huge part cork and limerick success at times but the system were still in need of change and they didn't change and after one good year suffered the years after
Cork and limerick were too orthodox

Waterford have the right idea with the system as you won't beat kk one v one but have to add a counter attacking system like clare done when they won the all ireland
Do that and sort out the full back line and change two forwards they would have a great chance
But that's the next test next year to further evolve the system
Management to be fair have improved waterford defence this year however kk caused the system problem yesterday and should have at least one more goal

I think division one hurling will be a huge benefits next year and McGrath gave good interview today when he says waterford probably be favourite to go down so he realised huge challenge next year and that's good sign for waterford he's already thinking ahead
This system should not be abandoned but evolved

blueflame · 10-08-2015 12:18PM

Gutted after yesterday's result but reasonably happy with the year especially if we can learn from mistakes.

Wish for next 12 months - keep the forward momentum - no major radical overhaul - just development. Talk of moving Brick to full back - remember how that experiment went previously - tried it with Fergal Hartley also and did not work - full back is a specialist position and for the moment would work with Barry Coughlan and Shane Roche - even if Brick did work out which i do not think he would we will have problem again in two years time. If going to persist with a sweeper system need to look at dropping someone in there like Barron who is busy and can launch attacks as well as giving cover - deBurca is a good marker and an aggressive hurler and to me is wasted as a loose man.

Need to work hard at developing ball-winning ability in the Forwards, too many times standing under the ball h backing into the defender, allowing them to push and climb all over making them favourites to win ball - need to focus more on moving toward the ball and turning shoulder so that we can provide added protection to the ball

Need to be cuter - a.k.a TJ Reid yesterday turning his back and little nudge on deBurca, he fouls the man but little chance of being blown for it especially with two Waterford men being there, and was facing goal as he landed making him odds on for any breaking ball. Cannot beat that kind of craft and experience, but we need to work on that

Also have a couple of big lads on the panel and need to try and get them in as ball winners in the the half forward line when necessary. Cormac Curran and DJ Foran have as much hurling ability as Walter Walsh and despite a lot of KK supporters getting on his back, Walsh causes mayhem by winning primary possession with runners breaking off him. He also makes space for the likes of Hogan to pick up ball on the move.

Thought Pauric Mahony was a huge loss yesterday as he has that bit of craft and ability to pick points from limited space which was needed at times. Well done to Maurice who was flawless from the frees and not all easy ones, again he worked really hard and good to see Dunford coming back to form. Very optimistic about the future if we can just drive on. As regards KK being in 3rd gear - don;t believe it - have a look at Richie Hogan tweet in Examiner about his feet and the blisters- the game might not have been pretty but the work rate and tackling from both sides was massive - you don't win All Ireland semi finals playing in 3rd gear.

Final comment, something that is often overlooked is massive the advantage that KK have in playing on the Croke Park surface far more regularly than most of their opposition. Grass is cut much tighter and surface is more firmer than the likes of Thurles, Limerick or Parc ui Caoimhe - sliother skims off the ground at far more pace and is harder to pick - just think that in tight games it gives an advantage to team who are more familiar with it .

Any thanks to the lads for a great year and the sacrificea they have made. if you feel down this morning - how do they feel. Roll on 2016

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1