Ukraine: As it happens.

Elmer Blooker · 23-07-2015 7:09pm

Exactly. Khrushchev must have had a rough night on the vodka and signed the wrong piece of paper on his desk in the Kremlin the next morning. Crimeans went to bed Russian and woke up Ukrainian!
But hey that's international law isn't it!

Gatling · 23-07-2015 7:14pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Exactly. Khrushchev must have had a rough night on the vodka and signed the wrong piece of paper on his desk in the Kremlin the next morning. Crimeans went to bed Russian and woke up Ukrainian!
But hey that's international law isn't it!

Fast forward 2015 Ukrainians went to sleep Ukrainian and woke up in Russia surrounded by russian soldiers

DeadHand · 23-07-2015 7:24pm

Gatling wrote: »

Fast forward 2015 Ukrainians went to sleep Ukrainian and woke up in Russia surrounded by russian soldiers

Not really.

Russians went to sleep in an anti-Russian Ukraine and woke up rightfully returned to Russia.

Not one shot fired.

Gatling · 23-07-2015 7:48pm

DeadHand wrote: »

Not really.

Russians went to sleep in an anti-Russian Ukraine and woke up rightfully returned to Russia.

Not one shot fired.

Madian and the 6000+ dead since Russia decided it wanted Crimea and Ukraine back says otherwise

DeadHand · 23-07-2015 8:36pm

Gatling wrote: »

Madian and the 6000+ dead since Russia decided it wanted Crimea and Ukraine back says otherwise

How many died in Crimea?

There was no resistance to Russian reoccupation. There is no Ukrainian insurgency in Crimea. The reoccupation was just and popular among the local population.

Crimea is a now peaceful and stable region.

Elmer Blooker · 23-07-2015 8:48pm

Gatling wrote: »

Madian and the 6000+ dead since Russia decided it wanted Crimea and Ukraine back says otherwise

Maybe the Kiev puppets should stop attacking their own people then , no doubt they're following orders .... in who's interests is it for the Minsk agreement to fail and the conflict to continue?

Irish Praetorian · 23-07-2015 8:56pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Maybe the Kiev puppets should stop attacking their own people then , no doubt they're following orders .... in who's interests is it for the Minsk agreement to fail and the conflict to continue?

And by 'their own people' you presumably mean the ones who moonlight as active servicemen in the Russian army?

Irish Praetorian · 23-07-2015 9:01pm

DeadHand wrote: »

How many died in Crimea?

There was no resistance to Russian reoccupation. There is no Ukrainian insurgency in Crimea. The reoccupation was just and popular among the local population.

Crimea is a now peaceful and stable region.

Provided you're an ethnic Russian...

In any case it might be more accurate to claim no MAJOR resistance, maybe a dozen dead in the course of events and quite a few more 'disappearances' following the fact.

Elmer Blooker · 23-07-2015 9:05pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

And by 'their own people' you presumably mean the ones who moonlight as active servicemen in the Russian army?

No. I mean the ethnic Russian population of eastern Ukraine who totally reject the ultra-nationalist anti Russian racists now in power in Kiev.

Irish Praetorian · 23-07-2015 9:11pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No. I mean the ethnic Russian population of eastern Ukraine who totally reject the ultra-nationalist anti Russian racists now in power in Kiev.

You forgot to add the words Fascist and Neo-Nazi a few times for the proper effect...

You might also want to try a few of these golden oldies:

The US invaded Iraq
The West promised not to expand NATO
Russia only lost these territories because of Kruschev's decision in the 1950s
It's a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Russia
Foreigners want to divide up Russia's natural resources

Tigerbaby · 23-07-2015 9:15pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

You forgot to add the words Fascist and Neo-Nazi a few times for the proper effect...

You might also want to try a few of these golden oldies:

The US invaded Iraq
The West promised not to expand NATO
Russia only lost these territories because of Kruschev's decision in the 1950s
It's a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Russia
Foreigners want to divide up Russia's natural resources

Wow, myopic much?

What do you call the Economic Sanctions, Currency attacks, and oil glut of the last year?

I would call it a severe attack on Russia. And I dont even watch RT.

Irish Praetorian · 23-07-2015 9:20pm

Tigerbaby wrote: »

Wow, myopic much?

What do you call the Economic Sanctions, Currency attacks, and oil glut of the last year?

I would call it a severe attack on Russia. And I dont even watch RT.

Currency 'attacks' and oil glut...do elaborate...it's something to do with Jews right?

As for sanctions, those do indeed constitute an act targeted at Russia but I find them, at least in my mind, justified by the ACTUAL aggressive act of invading a foreign country and deciding to annex a slice of it. I mean it's a small thing really...

Tigerbaby · 23-07-2015 9:25pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Currency 'attacks' and oil glut...do elaborate...it's something to do with Jews right?

As for sanctions, those do indeed constitute an act targeted at Russia but I find them, at least in my mind, justified by the ACTUAL aggressive act of invading a foreign country and deciding to annex a slice of it. I mean it's a small thing really...

do you think?

I said nothing about "Jews". why did you introduce that?

There are many forms of invasion, most of them can be subtle, and bought by money. Made to look like the Natural uprising of a deprived people. I think it perfectly reasonable that Russia should seek to maintain influence and control in her "near abroad".

Especially when one considers that the citizens of certain areas regard themselves as Russian and react to a dictat which defies their identity, language and culture.

Good on them, I say.

Irish Praetorian · 23-07-2015 9:30pm

Tigerbaby wrote: »

do you think?

I said nothing about "Jews". why did you introduce that?

There are many forms of invasion, most of them can be subtle, and bought by money. Made to look like the Natural uprising of a deprived people. I think it perfectly reasonable that Russia should seek to maintain influence and control in her "near abroad".

Especially when one considers that the citizens of certain areas regard themselves as Russian and react to a dictat which defies their identity, language and culture.

Good on them, I say.

I introduce it because normally when I debate people on this issue, the ones I see defending Russia are the ones who decry me as a 'race traitor' for believing the 'Jewish run media' whilst they are the only ones who can see the 'real truth'. Force of habit I grant you, but you appear to be ringing the last of those particular bells.

Now if I understand the argument you're making, it's that Ukraine was basically pretty happy until someone came in, used money to make a revolution and because of that the Russians had to invade and annex parts of that country because...stuff - maybe you can set it out more eloquently that I have?

darkpagandeath · 23-07-2015 9:35pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

You forgot to add the words Fascist and Neo-Nazi a few times for the proper effect...

You might also want to try a few of these golden oldies:

The US invaded Iraq
The West promised not to expand NATO
Russia only lost these territories because of Kruschev's decision in the 1950s
It's a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Russia
Foreigners want to divide up Russia's natural resources

Russia signed a treaty In regards to nuclear weapons.

Irish Praetorian · 23-07-2015 9:36pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Russia signed a treaty In regards to nuclear weapons.

Forgot that one, good catch.

Tigerbaby · 23-07-2015 9:42pm

thats ok.

You mistook me for a generic conspiracy theorist?

I just think in realpolitik terms.

The whole idea of "Maidan" and its fight for freedom is something I have trouble with.

Particularly when we see the type of people supporting the current regime in Kyiv.

They're not nice people. They have been encouraged ( bought) by people who wish to see Russia diminished in influence.

Russia was encircled once before, and has no wish for this to happen again.
Imagine if Canada and Mexico were vassal states of Russia. How would the USA react?

Encroachment on someone elses territory is not generally a good idea.

Irish Praetorian · 23-07-2015 9:53pm

Tigerbaby wrote: »

thats ok.

You mistook me for a generic conspiracy theorist?

I just think in realpolitik terms.

The whole idea of "Maidan" and its fight for freedom is something I have trouble with.

Particularly when we see the type of people supporting the current regime in Kyiv.

They're not nice people. They have been encouraged ( bought) by people who wish to see Russia diminished in influence.

Russia was encircled once before, and has no wish for this to happen again.
Imagine if Canada and Mexico were vassal states of Russia. How would the USA react?

Encroachment on someone elses territory is not generally a good idea.

Now we're talking;

The Maidan I don't think was purely representative of a 'freedom fight' but more a reflection of a pretty strong trend within Ukraine to move towards the West in diplomatic and cultural terms, away from Russia, with which Ukraine has had on and off trade disputes, usually whenever it has done something Russia disliked. In short, as one Ukrainian friend put it, they want to be one equal European among many, rather than just the sidekick for Putin's increasingly problematic Russia.

As for the 'type' of people supporting the Ukrainian government, I've seen nothing to suggest any of the fringe groups supporting them are any worse than what passes for 'loyal opposition' in Russia, more to the point these fringe groups have been in decline as demonstrated by the recent elections.

Now Russia might feel 100 ways about encroachment on its territory, but Ukraine is not it's territory nor are the Ukrainians obligated to spend the rest of existence assuaging Russian paranoia about being invaded. I also think its utter hyperbole to describe the relationship between Ukraine and the West as one of vassalage.

Gatling · 23-07-2015 10:07pm

Tigerbaby wrote: »

Wow, myopic much?

What do you call the Economic Sanctions, Currency attacks, and oil glut of the last year?

I would call it a severe attack on Russia. And I dont even watch RT.

Blame Saudi for the oil glut or should I say opec(which happend to effect the American shale gas producers just as much ) add the lack of any economic diversity ohh let's just black mail our neighbours and best customers.
The sanctions are well deserved but don't go far enough been honest actually the sanctions are quite restrained hopefully come October when the MH17 investigation and report is made public they get ramped up significantly .
But one thing is starting to show Russian interest in East Ukraine seems to be waining a bit either Putin in bored or has realised he's made a right pigs dinner of his conquest

Tigerbaby · 23-07-2015 10:10pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Now we're talking;

The Maidan I don't think was purely representative of a 'freedom fight' but more a reflection of a pretty strong trend within Ukraine to move towards the West in diplomatic and cultural terms, away from Russia, with which Ukraine has had on and off trade disputes, usually whenever it has done something Russia disliked. In short, as one Ukrainian friend put it, they want to be one equal European among many, rather than just the sidekick for Putin's increasingly problematic Russia.

As for the 'type' of people supporting the Ukrainian government, I've seen nothing to suggest any of the fringe groups supporting them are any worse than what passes for 'loyal opposition' in Russia, more to the point these fringe groups have been in decline as demonstrated by the recent elections.

Now Russia might feel 100 ways about encroachment on its territory, but Ukraine is not it's territory nor are the Ukrainians obligated to spend the rest of existence assuaging Russian paranoia about being invaded. I also think its utter hyperbole to describe the relationship between Ukraine and the West as one of vassalage.

fabulous reply.

I dont have a dog in this race, and thus dont have your personal experience.

However, I do feel from my analysis, that Ukrainian desires for autonomy and freedom may be in danger of being hijacked in the name of the 21st Century "Great Game".

She may be better served by an understanding and rapprochement with her geographical neighbours, rather than being manipulated by far-away friends who can disappear with the morning fog.

Just my thoughts on the manipulation of an innocent, honest Nation.

( and no "Jews" in sight :rolleyes:)

Irish Praetorian · 23-07-2015 10:22pm

Tigerbaby wrote: »

fabulous reply.

I dont have a dog in this race, and thus dont have your personal experience.

However, I do feel from my analysis, that Ukrainian desires for autonomy and freedom may be in danger of being hijacked in the name of the 21st Century "Great Game".

She may be better served by an understanding and rapprochement with her geographical neighbours, rather than being manipulated by far-away friends who can disappear with the morning fog.

Just my thoughts on the manipulation of an innocent, honest Nation.

( and no "Jews" in sight :rolleyes:)

God I had forgotten how rare it is to receive a reply in good faith, especially on these forums.

Now you do raise some pertinent points, namely is the Ukrainian desire to move towards the West going to be exploited by certain Western nations for their own ends. That remains a possibility, however such concerns are I would argue, irrelevant for Ukrainians, so long as they are faced with the prospect of an ongoing protracted conflict in the East owing to Russian sponsored interference. The greater risk for the Ukrainians is that they end up like quite a few other Russian neighbours, by being made part of a 'frozen conflict' which can be started up whenever Russian pleases - this has been the Russian MO in Georgia, Moldova and arguably Azerbaijan too.

Talking rapprochement with a neighbour who seeks a vassal, not a partner, means the prospect of dealing with a power like the US is far less daunting, there's no chance of the US annexing parts of Ukraine nor have Ukraine and the US been fighting on and off trade wars for the past decade. Realistically, Ukraine is also more inclined toward become part of Europe than simply becoming another US friend and I think that's a reasonable objective given their position. I'd certainly welcome greater EU - Ukraine trade and I don't think that such moves should be rubbished as a new 'vassalage'.

Tigerbaby · 23-07-2015 10:33pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

God I had forgotten how rare it is to receive a reply in good faith, especially on these forums.

Now you do raise some pertinent points, namely is the Ukrainian desire to move towards the West going to be exploited by certain Western nations for their own ends. That remains a possibility, however such concerns are I would argue, irrelevant for Ukrainians, so long as they are faced with the prospect of an ongoing protracted conflict in the East owing to Russian sponsored interference. The greater risk for the Ukrainians is that they end up like quite a few other Russian neighbours, by being made part of a 'frozen conflict' which can be started up whenever Russian pleases - this has been the Russian MO in Georgia, Moldova and arguably Azerbaijan too.

Talking rapprochement with a neighbour who seeks a vassal, not a partner, means the prospect of dealing with a power like the US is far less daunting, there's no chance of the US annexing parts of Ukraine nor have Ukraine and the US been fighting on and off trade wars for the past decade. Realistically, Ukraine is also more inclined toward become part of Europe than simply becoming another US friend and I think that's a reasonable objective given their position. I'd certainly welcome greater EU - Ukraine trade and I don't think that such moves should be rubbished as a new 'vassalage'.

Too often, people turn into keyboard warriors, when they would not dare say those things face to face.

I like to feel I am talking to another person, just like myself; trying to make sense of this World. I thank you, for your civility.

I can still understand Russian paranoia, given they have been so brutally attacked by both Napoleon and Hitler. Memories like that fade very slowly.

If at all.

Gatling · 24-07-2015 12:01am

Tigerbaby wrote: »

I can still understand Russian paranoia, given they have been so brutally attacked by both Napoleon and Hitler. Memories like that fade very slowly.

If at all.

But using that logic how many countries in Europe faced total war from 1913 onwards yes Russia suffered in ww2 do did many nations ,who over the last 70 years rebuilt and got on with it .
Now we have the EU were all supposedly on the same page working together,
Mean while you have a paronoid state that is stuck in 1945 /46 war footing constantly threaten most of its friendly neighbours who have no actual beef with Russia but yet Russia wants beef with its neighbours.
How many European countries have actually threatened Russia none I'm aware of yet on the flip side Russia is regularly threatening veiled and openly it's European neighbours both with rethoric of ohh we've unfinished business with you's or we will aim nukes at you if you allow nato to post defensive key word defensive radars in there sovereign states .

Essentially playing the school yard bully

Herpes Cineplex · 24-07-2015 12:30am

Gatling wrote: »

But using that logic how many countries in Europe faced total war from 1913 onwards yes Russia suffered in ww2 do did many nations ,who over the last 70 years rebuilt and got on with it .
Now we have the EU were all supposedly on the same page working together,
Mean while you have a paronoid state that is stuck in 1945 /46 war footing constantly threaten most of its friendly neighbours who have no actual beef with Russia but yet Russia wants beef with its neighbours.
How many European countries have actually threatened Russia none I'm aware of yet on the flip side Russia is regularly threatening veiled and openly it's European neighbours both with rethoric of ohh we've unfinished business with you's or we will aim nukes at you if you allow nato to post defensive key word defensive radars in there sovereign states .

Essentially playing the school yard bully

For some reason the end of your post caught my eye first. So like most geopolitically aware persons, I assumed you were talking about the United States. Then I saw the nonsense about NATO and I decided to not read any further. NATO, a provocative, expansionist cold war relic that should have died with the Warsaw Pact. But I suppose when you've spent the last two decade baiting your former enemy, you eventually be able to justify your existence.

Gatling · 24-07-2015 12:51am

Herpes Cineplex wrote: »

For some reason the end of your post caught my eye first. So like most geopolitically aware persons, I assumed you were talking about the United States. Then I saw the nonsense about NATO and I decided to not read any further. NATO, a provocative, expansionist cold war relic that should have died with the Warsaw Pact. But I suppose when you've spent the last two decade baiting your former enemy, you eventually be able to justify your existence.

Excuse my laughter

Iwasfrozen · 24-07-2015 12:57am

Herpes Cineplex wrote: »

For some reason the end of your post caught my eye first. So like most geopolitically aware persons, I assumed you were talking about the United States. Then I saw the nonsense about NATO and I decided to not read any further. NATO, a provocative, expansionist cold war relic that should have died with the Warsaw Pact. But I suppose when you've spent the last two decade baiting your former enemy, you eventually be able to justify your existence.

Why should NATO have died with the Warsaw pact? Did Russia suddenly stop being a threat? NATO as an organization has guaranteed the right of existence to Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland.

NATO has no desires to conquer Russia. As long as Russia stays within its own borders they will have no trouble from NATO

Elmer Blooker · 24-07-2015 1:38am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why should NATO have died with the Warsaw pact? Did Russia suddenly stop being a threat? NATO as an organization has guaranteed the right of existence to Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland.

NATO has no desires to conquer Russia. As long as Russia stays within its own borders they will have no trouble from NATO

christ almighty!!
How is it possible to have a serious debate with people who think NATO only exists to protect the rights of small nations!!
Was Russia a threat in the 1990s when it was basically a bankrupt third world country?

obplayer · 24-07-2015 1:43am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

christ almighty!!
How is it possible to have a serious debate with people who think NATO only exists to protect the rights of small nations!!
Was Russia a threat in the 1990s when it was basically a bankrupt third world country?

Russia is always a threat because of all those nukes and a paranoid macho mind-set that worries the rest of they might use them.

Elmer Blooker · 24-07-2015 2:03am

obplayer wrote: »

Russia is always a threat because of all those nukes and a paranoid macho mind-set that worries the rest of they might use them.

As far as I'm aware its not Russia who's responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians since the start of this century.

Irish Praetorian · 24-07-2015 2:04am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

christ almighty!!
How is it possible to have a serious debate with people who think NATO only exists to protect the rights of small nations!!
Was Russia a threat in the 1990s when it was basically a bankrupt third world country?

What else do you imagine NATO is apart from mutual defence? Have you perhaps confused it with the international super-villain consortium SPECTRE?

Ukraine: As it happens.

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