Ukraine: As it happens.

Gatling

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

What else do you imagine NATO is apart from mutual defence? Have you perhaps confused it with the international super-villain consortium SPECTRE?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV8YbLvGrb0

BlaasForRafa

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

As far as I'm aware its not Russia who's responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians since the start of this century.

You might want to mention that to the citizens of Chechnya.

IrishTrajan

Tigerbaby wrote: »

Wow, myopic much?

What do you call the Economic Sanctions, Currency attacks, and oil glut of the last year?

I would call it a severe attack on Russia. And I dont even watch RT.

Sanctions and currency, after they invaded their neighbour and shot children out of the sky.

"oil glut". wtf, you think the US pulled off some grand elaborate conspiracy to slow down China's growth and get Libya/Iraq to produce oil again solely to hamstring Russia? If they did, those Yanks are pretty feckin resourceful, alright.

IrishTrajan

Tigerbaby wrote: »

There are many forms of invasion, most of them can be subtle, and bought by money. Made to look like the Natural uprising of a deprived people. I think it perfectly reasonable that Russia should seek to maintain influence and control in her "near abroad".

Especially when one considers that the citizens of certain areas regard themselves as Russian and react to a dictat which defies their identity, language and culture.

Good on them, I say.

So the Irish Government should arm and send soldeirs to join the IRA, to begin another bombing campaign in the North and England because there's ethnic Irish in the North? Don't be farcical.

IrishTrajan

IrishTrajan wrote: »

So the Irish Government should arm and send soldeirs to join the IRA, to begin another bombing campaign in the North and England because there's ethnic Irish in the North? Don't be farcical.

Someone needs to pick up a history book as this is nearly what happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Crisis

And for the red, white and blue flag waving naieve folks commenting on this tread picking up a book might also be a good idea.
Here's where to start:
http://williamblum.org/books/rogue-state/
http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081

IrishTrajan

Herpes Cineplex wrote: »

For some reason the end of your post caught my eye first. So like most geopolitically aware persons, I assumed you were talking about the United States. Then I saw the nonsense about NATO and I decided to not read any further. NATO, a provocative, expansionist cold war relic that should have died with the Warsaw Pact. But I suppose when you've spent the last two decade baiting your former enemy, you eventually be able to justify your existence.

Yeah, that's the perfect way to keep the country stable... Dissolving both wartime alliances at the same time, effectively shattering the Bretton Woods agreements and letting the small states bicker over territorial disputes, rather than keeping at least one side in play so war doesn't break out.

"cold war relic", is that supposed to be a pejorative? Look at what we're dealing with today in the realm of geopolitics. Almost all (if not all) have histories from actions during the Cold War.

IrishTrajan

Deleted User wrote: »

Someone needs to pick up a history book as this is nearly what happened.

And that link supports the belief that there being ethnic Irish in the North justifies re-starting the conflict? I'm not talking about what happened 40 years ago, we're talking about what could happen in the future. His belief that there being ethnic Russians identifying with Russia would be akin to the Republic starting a separatist movement, backing it with arms and soldiers now.

IrishTrajan

IrishTrajan wrote: »

And that link supports the belief that there being ethnic Irish in the North justifies re-starting the conflict?

Are you seriously asking me does a wikipedia article support re-starting the conflict? or just trying to cling onto whatever silly argument you can?

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I'm not talking about what happened 40 years ago, we're talking about what could happen in the future.

So, in your view, what are the acceptable date ranges for us to refer to?!

IrishTrajan

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you seriously asking me does a wikipedia article support re-starting the conflict? or just trying to cling onto whatever silly argument you can?

He was stating that so long as ethnic Russians in Ukraine identify with Russia, that it is fine for Russia to use force in their "near abroad". If tomorrow the Irish Government decided they were going to legitimize the IRA and renew a bombing campaign in England because of ethnic Irish in the North, would that be considered justified or legitimate?

Irish Praetorian

Deleted User wrote: »

And for the red, white and blue flag waving naieve folks commenting on this tread picking up a book might also be a good idea.
Here's where to start:
http://williamblum.org/books/rogue-state/
http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081

Right because the ONLY options on the table are wholehearted support of the US and everything it does OR full on apologism and meek reverence for crack pot dictatorships and banana republics that daub themselves 'enemies of US Imperialism'.

Elmer Blooker

Deleted User wrote: »

And for the red, white and blue flag waving naieve folks commenting on this tread picking up a book might also be a good idea.
Here's where to start:
http://williamblum.org/books/rogue-state/

The mention of the NATO terrorist attack on Serbia brought back memories to me of these heroes who stood on the bridge over the Danube in Belgrade challenging the NATO cowards to blow them to bits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9NGBb9wZm4

Irish Praetorian

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The mention of the NATO terrorist attack on Serbia brought back memories to me of these heroes who stood on the bridge over the Danube in Belgrade challenging the NATO cowards to blow them to bits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9NGBb9wZm4

A pity they couldn't make a stand when thousands of their countrymen were getting 'disappeared' and another million made into refugees...but I suppose they were probably Fascist Counter-Revolutionary Racists who wanted Serbia to become the 51st US state...

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The mention of the NATO terrorist attack on Serbia brought back memories to me of these heroes who stood on the bridge over the Danube in Belgrade challenging the NATO cowards to blow them to bits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9NGBb9wZm4

I'm sure the massacres and that lead to war crimes trials are all a joke to you .

Did you feel the same about ww2

Boring username

Russia have moved a squadron of Tu-223 supersonic long range bombers into the Crimea, although the motives for this are puzzling:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33649298

dogcat

The U.S. troops will train regular Ukrainian military troops later in 2015: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/24/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-idUSKCN0PY28A20150724

snubbleste

Things are heating up again. A cover for something else?
BBC - Russia has accused Ukraine of trying to carry out armed incursions into Crimea.

The FSB intelligence agency said two attempted incursions had taken place over the weekend and a Russian soldier and an FSB employee had been killed.
President Putin said Ukraine had engaged in "stupid and criminal" actions and Russia would take "further security measures" in Crimea.
Ukraine has rejected the accusations.

KELTICKNIGHTT

snubbleste wrote: »

Things are heating up again. A cover for something else?
BBC - Russia has accused Ukraine of trying to carry out armed incursions into Crimea.

more Russian bull s@it, Russians can't be trusted

Asaiah

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

more Russian bull s@it, Russians can't be trusted

That's quite the blanket statement there. I assume you mean the government of Russia? Or are you still happy to assert that Russian people cannot be trusted?

Ukrainian soldiers have been arrested in Crimea with a huge arsenal of weapons and explosives. Two Russian personnel were shot dead by them.

If its not true then who shot them? And how did a group of Ukrainian soldiers come to be arrested in Crimea?

Dohnjoe

Asaiah wrote: »

That's quite the blanket statement there. I assume you mean the government of Russia? Or are you still happy to assert that Russian people cannot be trusted?

Ukrainian soldiers have been arrested in Crimea with a huge arsenal of weapons and explosives. Two Russian personnel were shot dead by them.

If its not true then who shot them? And how did a group of Ukrainian soldiers come to be arrested in Crimea?

Maybe they were there on holidays?

Maybe it's a fabricated story?

Maybe there was a cross-border skirmish and it's being spun?

Heavy Russian propaganda and their "information war" has meant most Kremlin pushed stories are taken with a heavy pinch of salt by the rest of the world

Asaiah

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Maybe they were there on holidays?

Maybe it's a fabricated story?

Maybe there was a cross-border skirmish and it's being spun?

Heavy Russian propaganda has had a potent effect on the domestic audience, but it's also meant that most of the rest of the world take any news from Russian sources with a fairly large pinch salt

I don't doubt that Russia plays a dirty game in Ukraine, however I know that Ukraine is at it as well. I know people with first hand experience of Ukrainian brutality on the Crimean border and in Eastern Ukraine. I am sure there are many who can say the same for Russian brutality.

However I don't doubt this, because the electrical infrastructure has been bombed on a number of occasions on the Ukrainian border by Ukrainian military and militia. I've have regular contact with family in Crimea who let me know how it is. One day electricity is working, next it's been sabotaged again.

So catching a group of Ukrainians special forces in the act is not beyond the realms of the imagination.

Exeggcute

Hahaha given that the Western media spun the **** out of the coup in Ukraine to smear Putin that is quite the statement.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Asaiah wrote: »

That's quite the blanket statement there. I assume you mean the government of Russia? Or are you still happy to assert that Russian people cannot be trusted?

Ukrainian soldiers have been arrested in Crimea with a huge arsenal of weapons and explosives. Two Russian personnel were shot dead by them.

If its not true then who shot them? And how did a group of Ukrainian soldiers come to be arrested in Crimea?

Russian government and its army can't be trusted and anything said by them, so when i see this tripe of Russian propaganda only excuses to invade more of Ukraine.
also don't believe Russian supporters !

Asaiah

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Russian government and its army can't be trusted and anything said by them, so when i see this tripe of Russian propaganda only excuses to invade more of Ukraine.
also don't believe Russian supporters !

Fair enough. However Russia took what they wanted in Ukraine, if they wanted it all they would have taken it 2 years ago with little difficulty.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Asaiah wrote: »

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Russian government and its army can't be trusted and anything said by them, so when i see this tripe of Russian propaganda only excuses to invade more of Ukraine.
also don't believe Russian supporters !

Fair enough. However Russia took what they wanted in Ukraine, if they wanted it all they would have taken it 2 years ago with little difficulty.

Do you think

Dohnjoe

Asaiah wrote: »

I don't doubt that Russia plays a dirty game in Ukraine, however I know that Ukraine is at it as well. I know people with first hand experience of Ukrainian brutality on the Crimean border and in Eastern Ukraine. I am sure there are many who can say the same for Russian brutality.

However I don't doubt this, because the electrical infrastructure has been bombed on a number of occasions on the Ukrainian border by Ukrainian military and militia. I've have regular contact with family in Crimea who let me know how it is. One day electricity is working, next it's been sabotaged again.

So catching a group of Ukrainians special forces in the act is not beyond the realms of the imagination.

Considering the fact that Moscow helped spark an actual war within their sovereign territory, are sheltering their ex-leader, (wanted by several countries, not just Ukraine) and not to mention the whole annexing of Crimea

I would be pretty surprised if the Ukrainians were doing nothing

They're no angels themselves.

Dohnjoe

Exeggcute wrote: »

Hahaha given that the Western media spun the **** out of the coup in Ukraine to smear Putin that is quite the statement.

Correction, the world's media. Middle Eastern, Asian, South American, African, Scandinavian, independent journalists, veteran reporters, competing outlets.. all worked together in a seamless conspiracy to distort the truth on the protests in Kiev.

Thankfully in all that, most of the Russian media were an oasis of truth and a bastion of objective reporting.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Exeggcute wrote: »

Hahaha given that the Western media spun the **** out of the coup in Ukraine to smear Putin that is quite the statement.

What a load of bull

Count Dooku

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Correction, the world's media. Middle Eastern, Asian, South American, African, Scandinavian, independent journalists, veteran reporters, competing outlets..

All came with russophobic agenda to show how bad is Russia
This is why it was so much hysteria in Western media when RT managed to show inconvenient truth which West would prefer do not see

conditioned games

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

What a load of bull

It was the Americans financially supporting a right wing movement that led to the coup and overthrow of a democratically elected government in Ukraine that started all this. Don't ever forget that.

Elmer Blooker

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Correction, the world's media. Middle Eastern, Asian, South American, African, Scandinavian, independent journalists, veteran reporters, competing outlets.. all worked together in a seamless conspiracy to distort the truth on the protests in Kiev.

........ in other words, the best journalists that money can buy!!