Ukraine: As it happens.

gandalf

InTheTrees wrote: »

And the Chinese will blatantly take advantage of Russia's weakness. There's no love lost between those two.

It's no longer will, it's they are taking advantage.

Also I have to laugh at those saying that China is joining forces to stick one to the yanks. The Chinese are not going to do anything that endangers one of their biggest trading partners who owe them $1.27 Trillion (Mar/2014).

robindch

InTheTrees wrote: »

And the Chinese will blatantly take advantage of Russia's weakness.

China is taking advantage of Russia's weakness. The difference between Chinese and western approaches being that Chinese diplomats and politicians are keeping largely quiet about the gains they're making:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/10/us-russia-china-gas-idUSKCN0IU17K20141110

Largish gas-energy deals, but no price negotiated? Nice one, Beijing

robindch

Egginacup wrote: »

You're saying there was no agreement between Bush and Gorbachev?

As IrishTrajan has already pointed out, Gorbachev himself said that there was no agreement between Bush and Gorbachev.

Egginacup wrote: »

Are you air brushing history now to suit yourself?

*cough* :rolleyes:

bilston

Gatling wrote: »

But there not the only ones if I'm correct so do several EU countries or at least have nuclear warheads on defensive weapons

I wonder if a war between the EU and Russia could ever avoid the nuclear route. It might to begin with but if one side or the other looked like winning then I'd fear things would tip over the edge.

There really can never be a winner in a war between Russia and Europe. You'd think the supremely intelligent people who govern us all realise this be they Russian or European.

IrishTrajan

bilston wrote: »

I wonder if a war between the EU and Russia could ever avoid the nuclear route. It might to begin with but if one side or the other looked like winning then I'd fear things would tip over the edge.

War is only sustained so long as the cost of surrender is higher than the cost of continuing. So long as you don't have your existence threatened, I don't see anyone resorting to nuclear warfare, as the cost of engaging in such warfare is suicidally high, no peace agreement could make up for the damage done to your nation from the result of a nuclear strike.

Europe has ~500-600 nuclear warheads (not including the American bombs in Italy/Germany/Belgium) which is still incredibly high. 50-60 nukes could kill tens of millions of people, Russia is never going to risk escalation to that level. Likewise, Europe is never going to escalate to that level because Russia has like 15 nukes for every 1 Europe has.

Grayson

IrishTrajan wrote: »

War is only sustained so long as the cost of surrender is higher than the cost of continuing. So long as you don't have your existence threatened, I don't see anyone resorting to nuclear warfare, as the cost of engaging in such warfare is suicidally high, no peace agreement could make up for the damage done to your nation from the result of a nuclear strike.

Europe has ~500-600 nuclear warheads (not including the American bombs in Italy/Germany/Belgium) which is still incredibly high. 50-60 nukes could kill tens of millions of people, Russia is never going to risk escalation to that level. Likewise, Europe is never going to escalate to that level because Russia has like 15 nukes for every 1 Europe has.

Plus although nationalism is used in Russia to whip up the masses, the leaders and power brokers aren't that susceptible. When you've spent a decade syphoning off billions and have the lifestyle to accompany it, you don't really want to see your county nuked.

robindch

bilston wrote: »

There really can never be a winner in a war between Russia and Europe. You'd think the supremely intelligent people who govern us all realise this be they Russian or European.

Putin believes that a war is politically unsustainable in Europe now and uses this belief to do what he wants to in Crimea and East Ukraine. That belief might even be true. And while it's plausible to think he simply made it up, his claim that he was ready to threaten the use of nuclear weapons during the theft of Crimea plays directly to that belief.

But unlike western leaders, Putin doesn't really care that much about war - he's president of a large country with many people, large numbers of whom have been radicalized by state-controlled media to the point of idiocy. And it's not impossible that at some point in the future, perhaps facing a decline in popularity or more street protests, he might decide to invade the Baltic states, Finland, Transnistra, the rest of Ukraine or a couple of small, hapless Eastern European countries in order that they might "return to the motherland" too.

robindch

Concerning the massacre on Maidan, CIA shill Viktor Yanukovych denies giving any orders to open fire, but implies that somebody in his administration did. Then goes on to explain "the members of the security forces fulfilled their duties according to existing laws. They had the right to use weapons [...]"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33224138

No doubt it's just another attempt by the US to blacken the name of the previous Russian-backed administration by suggesting that it was generally in control of events, right up until the point at which it lost control.

robindch

Simon Ostrovsky says that, shortly after his report on "Selfie Soldiers", the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs formally refused him accreditation as a journalist in Russia:

http://tvrain.ru/news/avtory_filma_o_selfi_soldatah_v_donbasse_otkazali-389698/

Grayson wrote: »

I posted this in the politics cafe, but it's probably worth reposting here.

Count Dooku

robindch wrote: »

Concerning the massacre on Maidan, CIA shill Viktor Yanukovych denies giving any orders to open fire, but implies that somebody in his administration did. Then goes on to explain "the members of the security forces fulfilled their duties according to existing laws. They had the right to use weapons [...]"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33224138

No doubt it's just another attempt by the US to blacken the name of the previous Russian-backed administration by suggesting that it was generally in control of events, right up until the point at which it lost control.

BBC just made another example for Russian propaganda that there is no such thing like independent and unbiased media in West
BBC interviews Yanukovich, leaves key Donbass & Crimea quotes out of English version

robindch

Count Dooku wrote: »

[...] Russian propaganda [...]

That's about the height of it.

Elmer Blooker

Count Dooku wrote: »

BBC just made another example for Russian propaganda that there is no such thing like independent and unbiased media in West
BBC interviews Yanukovich, leaves key Donbass & Crimea quotes out of English version

I wouldn't even call it an "interview" Count D.
The interviewer was obviously instructed by his employers to bring up the subject of ostriches, this was to make Yanukovych look like a clown, an eccentric, a Yeltsin type buffoon.
I would expect the BBC to censor the important bits they didn't want the public to hear though.
A very insidious piece of propaganda indeed.

gandalf

Russian Troll Factory is outed in the Russian courts.

The secretive Russian agency that hires people to write pro-Kremlin propaganda on the web stepped into the public spotlight for the first time on Tuesday as a former employee took it to court.

The Agency for Internet Studies, which runs what has been called a “troll factory” from a nondescript St Petersburg address, is being sued by employee Lyudmila Savchuk for alleged underpayment and various labour violations.

Savchuk says she was one of many paid to write comments online supporting the policies of Vladimir Putin.

The agency is now seeking to avoid public scrutiny by offering to compensate her. Yekaterina Nazarova, defending, told the Petrogradsky district court judge the agency was ready to settle with Savchuk, who had asked for a symbolic sum of 10,000 roubles (£118).

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/russian-troll-factory-sued-underpayment-labour-violations-vladimir-putin

So apart from writing lies about other countries like the Ukraine they're pretty poor employers as well

Elmer Blooker

Oh look, she's very pretty too isn't she.
Radio .. ahem .. Free Europe have a pic of her.
Why do I think of Pussy Riot? ..... I've no idea!

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-whistle-blowing-troll-gets-her-day-in-court/27047858.html

BoJack Horseman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I've no idea!

Don't be hard on yourself.

The world knows the Kremlinbot armies exist.
You boys just need to change up the message.

The propeganda war is all but lost.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Oh look, she's very pretty too isn't she.
Radio .. ahem .. Free Europe have a pic of her.
Why do I think of Pussy Riot? ..... I've no idea!

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-whistle-blowing-troll-gets-her-day-in-court/27047858.html

We aim to please

robindch

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I would expect the BBC to censor the important bits they didn't want the public to hear though.

Amusing to notice yet again that the Russian government and Kremlin-controlled media outlets track western media + opinion obsessively, while everybody over this side of the wall ignores pretty much everything that happens over there - only dipping in from time to time to have a poke and a laugh.

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Don't be hard on yourself.

The world knows the Kremlinbot armies exist.

And 77th Brigade of British Army is not secret anymore
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/31/british-army-facebook-warriors-77th-brigade

obplayer

Count Dooku wrote: »

And 77th Brigade of British Army is not secret anymore
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/31/british-army-facebook-warriors-77th-brigade

Well given that it is a full article in the mainstream press I don't think they were really trying to keep it secret. It isn't Russia you know!

Egginacup

robindch wrote: »

As IrishTrajan has already pointed out, Gorbachev himself said that there was no agreement between Bush and Gorbachev.*cough* :rolleyes:

Gorbachev also said that there was. As did James Baker. You want to do a bit more digging before you add coughs and rollyeyes, Paxman?

Count Dooku

obplayer wrote: »

Well given that it is a full article in the mainstream press I don't think they were really trying to keep it secret. It isn't Russia you know!

Olgino bots were also exposed by Russian newspaper, which means that Russia has freedom of information and West doesn't
Real opposition media is luxury which West cannot afford, because undesirable truth might leak and instead readers get so called "balanced" information, where editors decide how much coverage each side will get

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Olgino bots were also exposed by Russian newspaper, which means that Russia has freedom of information and West doesn't
Real opposition media is luxury which West cannot afford, because undesirable truth might leak and instead readers get so called "balanced" information, where editors decide how much coverage each side will get

I suppose, posting from Russia, you would know more about this than us in Ireland

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I suppose, posting from Russia, you would know more about this than us in Ireland

Your pathetic attempts to call "bot" everybody, who disagree with you, just shows how you scared to learn the truth, which can damage you faith

Gatling

Wonder if anyone from boards is planning on legal action for non payment of wages .



I've noticed the lack of testicular fortitude from the pro Kremlin forum lately

Maximus Alexander

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Oh look, she's very pretty too isn't she.
Radio .. ahem .. Free Europe have a pic of her.
Why do I think of Pussy Riot? ..... I've no idea!

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-whistle-blowing-troll-gets-her-day-in-court/27047858.html

Count Dooku wrote: »

Olgino bots were also exposed by Russian newspaper, which means that Russia has freedom of information and West doesn't
Real opposition media is luxury which West cannot afford, because undesirable truth might leak and instead readers get so called "balanced" information, where editors decide how much coverage each side will get

Wait a minute... You're one of them! :eek:

Grayson

Count Dooku wrote: »

Olgino bots were also exposed by Russian newspaper, which means that Russia has freedom of information and West doesn't
Real opposition media is luxury which West cannot afford, because undesirable truth might leak and instead readers get so called "balanced" information, where editors decide how much coverage each side will get

Russia really only has one independent TV channel and one major independent paper.

I find it funny the way Russian bots/trolls always say the west has no free press. I see it all the time in comments on the guardian. The guardian is owned by a trust. It doesn't have corporate owners (like Murdoch or DoB) or state ownership (like nearly every Russian media source). It's also the paper that broke the wikileaks and Snowden stories. It's about as independent as you can get.

btw, there was a distinct lack of trolls in the guardians story about this. It was nearly bereft of the normal flood of comments about Nuland and Bandera.

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Your pathetic attempts to call "bot" everybody, who disagree with you, just shows how you scared to learn the truth, which can damage you faith

Alas Comrade, I hold little fear for internet Ivan.

Why post on this little Irish website?
Surprised its on your radar?
It must hold little propaganda value for the motherland?

Elmer Blooker

Count Dooku wrote: »

And 77th Brigade of British Army is not secret anymore
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/31/british-army-facebook-warriors-77th-brigade

They've been spreading disinformation for years, example: in 1988 the SAS gunned down an IRA unit in Gibraltar, a Spanish woman who lived and worked as an interpreter in Gibraltar witnessed the shootings and said the IRA members had their hands up when they were shot. The British press were fed lies, obviously from high places, claiming she was a former prostitute and not a reliable witness. It took the woman years to clear her name and win damages in the courts.
No one does it better than the Brits!

Grayson

robindch wrote: »

Simon Ostrovsky says that, shortly after his report on "Selfie Soldiers", the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs formally refused him accreditation as a journalist in Russia:

http://tvrain.ru/news/avtory_filma_o_selfi_soldatah_v_donbasse_otkazali-389698/

I'd only just seen that on his twitter feed. Apparently they'e kicking out lots.
He tweeted this story

http://www.smh.com.au/world/longtime-moscow-correspondent-helen-womack-bids-a-reluctant-farewell-to-russia-after-30-years-20150619-ghoe2r.html

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

They've been spreading disinformation for years, example: in 1988 the SAS gunned down an IRA unit in Gibraltar, a Spanish woman who lived and worked as an interpreter in Gibraltar witnessed the shootings and said the IRA members had their hands up when they were shot. The British press were fed lies, obviously from high places, claiming she was a former prostitute and not a reliable witness. It took the woman years to clear her name and win damages in the courts.
No one does it better than the Brits!

They were terrorists it was a rightous kill .

Talking about the single handed worse attempt to deflect the subject.

What has NI terrorist's got to do with Ukraine 2015 /2016