S05 Ep10 - "Mother's Mercy" - HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS

BQQ · 18-06-2015 10:38am

PressRun wrote: »

I just don't know how littlefinger, a brothel owner, would have that kind of clout with religious fanatics. And his does imprisoning cersei really help olenna? She wants her grandchildren released, she's not really after revenge as such is shr?

He doesn't have any clout with them. He just knows Lancel's secrets.
He just gave the info to Olenna and she went to the High Sparrow with it.
That would be how I saw it.

It's not exactly revenge or not only revenge anyway.
Once Cercei is arrested the Sparrows no longer have the (tacit) support of the kingdom, which means the army will be sent in and her grandchildren will be released. In theory..

RichardoKhan · 18-06-2015 10:54am

When I was at School my Headmaster told me if I didnt knuckle down my future was 'Stark'...........Jeesuz !!

PressRun · 18-06-2015 12:39pm

BQQ wrote: »

He doesn't have any clout with them. He just knows Lancel's secrets.
He just gave the info to Olenna and she went to the High Sparrow with it.
That would be how I saw it.

It's not exactly revenge or not only revenge anyway.
Once Cercei is arrested the Sparrows no longer have the (tacit) support of the kingdom, which means the army will be sent in and her grandchildren will be released. In theory..

Yeah...I see what you're saying, but I'm still a little confused. I don't see how having Cersei thrown in prison for "crimes" totally unrelated to her own grandchildren is going to help her get them released. I thought there was something else at play, that littlefinger had someone else up his sleeve that could counter the claims against Loras or something.

catallus · 18-06-2015 12:42pm

I think Cersei is just going to go full-blown crazy and burn the whole city to the ground after what happened to her

wp_rathead · 18-06-2015 12:45pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'm not convinced Tyrion is a lannister

What makes you think that?

BQQ · 18-06-2015 12:59pm

PressRun wrote: »

Yeah...I see what you're saying, but I'm still a little confused. I don't see how having Cersei thrown in prison for "crimes" totally unrelated to her own grandchildren is going to help her get them released. I thought there was something else at play, that littlefinger had someone else up his sleeve that could counter the claims against Loras or something.

Maybe.
But quite a lot has happened since then and there's still no sign of anyone else.
Hardly likely that Olenna would not use this person and let Loras and Margeray rot.
Also, the claims against Loras were true, so who can counter them except a liar.
Don't need littlefinger to find a liar in Westeros :pac:

PressRun · 18-06-2015 1:04pm

BQQ wrote: »

Maybe.
But quite a lot has happened since then and there's still no sign of anyone else.
Hardly likely that Olenna would not use this person and let Loras and Margeray rot.
Also, the claims against Loras were true, so who can counter them except a liar.
Don't need littlefinger to find a liar in Westeros :pac:

They are true, but if anyone can find someone to get up on the stand in front of the faith militant and say that it's all lies or can't be proven, surely Littlefinger would be the man to do it. Who was yer man who ratted Loras and Margaery out in the first place?

Puddle Q · 18-06-2015 1:06pm

DeVore wrote: »

I think Sansa did grow as a character, just not very much! Facing Mistress ArrowPointy at the end there, she was pretty ballsy to be like "give it your best shot bitch". But yeah, I would have liked to see her become more of her mother... she's quite far from that atm!

I'm not sure how Tyrion could be anything but a Lannister, myself.

I didn't think Dorne was all THAT bad but I seem to be alone in that

Next season basically I want what everyone else seems to want... MOAR DRAGUNS 'N' ZOMBEHS KTHXBYE

The whole Dorne thing was high camp like a Carry On film. Oooooooh matron !

18-06-2015 1:15pm

PressRun wrote: »

They are true, but if anyone can find someone to get up on the stand in front of the faith militant and say that it's all lies or can't be proven, surely Littlefinger would be the man to do it. Who was yer man who ratted Loras and Margaery out in the first place?

I would both hope and imagine that little fingers plans go much higher than simply having them both released from prison.

seamus · 18-06-2015 1:15pm

PressRun wrote: »

I just don't know how littlefinger, a brothel owner, would have that kind of clout with religious fanatics.

It is painted pretty clearly though that the religious fanatics don't recognise "clout". All it would take is for Littlefinger to tell the High Septon, and he would ask Lancel about it.

And his does imprisoning cersei really help olenna? She wants her grandchildren released, she's not really after revenge as such is shr?

Olenna is playing the game as much as anyone. Her back was to the wall and Littlefinger offered her an opportunity to strike against Cersei. She knew the religious were being used as weapons by Cersei, so by turning those same weapons against Cersei, they become useless.

Olenna's hope/expectation now is that the crown will take action against the religious (Cersei is still going to have to face a trial), in effect resulting in the release of the queen.

PressRun · 18-06-2015 1:45pm

seamus wrote: »

It is painted pretty clearly though that the religious fanatics don't recognise "clout". All it would take is for Littlefinger to tell the High Septon, and he would ask Lancel about it. Olenna is playing the game as much as anyone. Her back was to the wall and Littlefinger offered her an opportunity to strike against Cersei. She knew the religious were being used as weapons by Cersei, so by turning those same weapons against Cersei, they become useless.

Olenna's hope/expectation now is that the crown will take action against the religious (Cersei is still going to have to face a trial), in effect resulting in the release of the queen.

Lancel was a sparrow before Littlefinger came back though. Would he not have unburdened himself to the high septon long before this?

I see what you're saying about hoping Cersei will wipe them out making all of these accusations irrelevant, but I would imagine Cersei would be quite happy to see Margaery and Loras taken down with them if she could. She'll presumably use the Mountain to get of her trial (if the faith play by the rules of trial by combat), but I could imagine her being fine with them taking out Margaery and Loras.

Galwayguy35 · 18-06-2015 1:53pm

Pity they didn't kill off that useless fool Sam and his missus and be done with it, pointless annoying character IMO.

lbj666 · 18-06-2015 2:12pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Pity they didn't kill off that useless fool Sam and his missus and be done with it, pointless annoying character IMO.

Stannis didn't seem to think he was pointless , which is surprising for him.
You know he is going to Oldtown ( this massive city we havent seen yet) to become a maester and is doing a load of research as to how to kill whitewaters which could come in handy. His dad Randall who hates him, also has a valerian sword . He has been a bit irritating but its only now very apparent where the aim of his character lies. But off course like anytime we have promise in a character on this show he'll probably end up being killed off on the road down there.

There also the matter of him breaking his sworn vow to the Nightswatch by leaving castleblack, so Ser Allister could have him killed.

CardBordWindow · 18-06-2015 2:22pm

lbj666 wrote: »

Stannis didn't seem to think he was pointless , which is surprising for him.
You know he is going to Oldtown ( this massive city we havent seen yet) to become a maester and is doing a load of research as to how to kill whitewaters which could come in handy. His dad Randall who hates him, also has a valerian sword . He has been a bit irritating but its only now very apparent where the aim of his character lies. But off course like anytime we have promise in a character on this show he'll probably end up being killed off on the road down there.

There also the matter of him breaking his sworn vow to the Nightswatch by leaving castleblack, so Ser Allister could have him killed.

Leaving Castle Black and deserting the WAtch are different though, aren't they? Wasn't Ser Allister sent to King's Landing with the hand of the wight that attacked Mormont in series 1?
Also, Yoren who took Arya from King's Landing was a member of the Nightswatch. They can be sent from the Wall as long as they don't desert.

Dan_Solo · 18-06-2015 2:38pm

PressRun wrote: »

She'll presumably use the Mountain to get of her trial (if the faith play by the rules of trial by combat), but I could imagine her being fine with them taking out Margaery and Loras.

As far as we know the Sparrows ignore the usual legal rules entirely and have their own system?

18-06-2015 3:26pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As far as we know the Sparrows ignore the usual legal rules entirely and have their own system?

Isn't trial by combat based on the religion of "the seven" though?

SillyBeans · 18-06-2015 3:31pm

Maybe Littlefinger and the head Sparrow are in on a plot together. Maybe the Sparrow knew all along about Cersei but didn't arrest her sooner as he needed her on side to actually gain enough power to do so. Maybe they're trying to get both Cersei and the Tyrells outs of the way for some reason or another. If they have both been disgraced, it might kick off a revolt against Tommen and then the Sparrow steps in as protector of the realm while Littlefinger becomes hand of the King and becomes a very powerful man. There's so many possibilities my head may explode!!

Knex* · 18-06-2015 3:40pm

catallus wrote: »

I think Cersei is just going to go full-blown crazy and burn the whole city to the ground after what happened to her

Especially when she hears about her daughter. Mountain is gonna go on a zombie rampage.

Dan_Solo · 18-06-2015 4:12pm

Knex. wrote: »

Especially when she hears about her daughter. Mountain is gonna go on a zombie rampage.

I know he's a badass and all, but can he really affect things on that sort of scale? Surely he's for duel purposes?
Unless he is of course dual purpose.

mzungu · 18-06-2015 5:13pm

DeadHand wrote: »

Me too!

Obviously not as intelligent and ruthless as Tywin was (no one but Tyrion is) but seems to have the same strong vein of common sense and immunity to Cersei's nonsense.

On that point, of Tywin's three children Tyrion was the most similar in terms of personality and mental capability to the father. Jaime is just an articulate soldier. Cersei is a spoiled lunatic. Tyrion, like his father before him, is a proven administrator, diplomat, politician and general.

I think that is where a lot of the Tywin on Tyrion hate stemmed from. On top of the physical "deformity" and death of his wife there were these similarities. No loathing like self-loathing. Tywin also may have recognised in Tyrion a potential future rival.

Looking back, Tywin's eagerness to sacrifice the Imp made little sense. He was clearly of use to House Lanister and still Tywin's only male heir unburdened by a vow of chastity. Maybe his claims made on the jacks that he intended to save Tyrion all along were true. His execution would certainly seem a drastic measure for a man so obsessed with family and legacy to take simply to placate Cersei and the Tyrells.

Interesting point about Tywin and Tyrion. Maybe that was why he was sleeping with his ex!

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'm not convinced Tyrion is a lannister

If there was any uncertainty about that id say Tywin would have killed him after he was born.

PressRun wrote: »

Also, who is the "young boy" or whatever that Littlefinger wanted to give to Olenna as a gift? It couldn't have been Lancel, right? He was already confessing everything to the Sparrows by the time Littlefinger arrived back at King's Landing.

I got the impression it was someone other than Lancel. I had assumed he confessed his part in Roberts death to the sparrows by way of his insinuations to Cersei earlier in the season. However the head sparrow made no mention of this when asking Cersei to plead for forgiveness for her sins. Of course maybe the head sparrow only cares for sins of the flesh.

lbj666 wrote: »

Stannis didn't seem to think he was pointless , which is surprising for him.
You know he is going to Oldtown ( this massive city we havent seen yet) to become a maester and is doing a load of research as to how to kill whitewaters which could come in handy. His dad Randall who hates him, also has a valerian sword . He has been a bit irritating but its only now very apparent where the aim of his character lies. But off course like anytime we have promise in a character on this show he'll probably end up being killed off on the road down there.

There also the matter of him breaking his sworn vow to the Nightswatch by leaving castleblack, so Ser Allister could have him killed.

Unless the Old Town plotline is riveting, I am hoping they give more screentime to the other stories next season. I don't mind Sam as a character but if Old Town will just be time studying to be a maester whilst juggling commitments to Gilly and the baby that would get fairly old pretty quick.

mzungu · 18-06-2015 5:15pm

Knex. wrote: »

Especially when she hears about her daughter. Mountain is gonna go on a zombie rampage.

Oh christ no! That would mean a return trip to Dorne.

Pugzilla · 18-06-2015 5:39pm

Hope Sam dies next.

That neckbeard is so annoying,

Nalz · 18-06-2015 5:57pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

Hope Sam dies next.

That neckbeard is so annoying,

Hope a wildling makes soup out of Ollies face tbh

catallus · 18-06-2015 5:59pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

Hope Sam dies next.

That neckbeard is so annoying,

He is a bit whiny, isn't he?

A few days in the Dreadfort wouldn't go amiss, methinks!

Pugzilla · 18-06-2015 6:05pm

Trilla wrote: »

Hope a wildling makes soup out of Ollies face tbh

Oh yeah, forgot that f'er. He goes to the top of the list.

J. Marston · 18-06-2015 6:16pm

mzungu wrote: »

Oh christ no! That would mean a return trip to Dorne.

Quick 5 minute trip to Dorne, The Mountain gives Ellaria and the Sand Snakes the Oberyn treatment and that's that.

How did Oberyn raise such an uncool family?

wp_rathead · 18-06-2015 6:19pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Pity they didn't kill off that useless fool Sam and his missus and be done with it, pointless annoying character IMO.

Have a feeling Sam gonna be a big part in the overall storyline
GRRM seems like the idea of seemingly "weak" characters having a big say like Bran or Tyrion, while prototype heroes having **** time like Obreyn, Rob Stark, Jamie Lannister etc.

I do hope Sam either grows a pair or something happens Gilly as they rather tedious at the moment I'll agree

mzungu · 18-06-2015 8:37pm

J. Marston wrote: »

Quick 5 minute trip to Dorne, The Mountain gives Ellaria and the Sand Snakes the Oberyn treatment and that's that.

How did Oberyn raise such an uncool family?

Well I suppose I could handle five minutes....definitely no more though :pac:

seligehgit · 18-06-2015 9:24pm

wp_rathead wrote: »

Have a feeling Sam gonna be a big part in the overall storyline
GRRM seems like the idea of seemingly "weak" characters having a big say like Bran or Tyrion, while prototype heroes having **** time like Obreyn, Rob Stark, Jamie Lannister etc.

I do hope Sam either grows a pair or something happens Gilly as they rather tedious at the moment I'll agree

TBH I really don't care at this stage how central a seemingly weak character will be to the overall story, his future and past presence in the show has added nothing to the quality of the show. It's criminal to seemingly kill off characters like Jon Snow, Tywin, the Hound, Oberyn and Joffrey whilst keeping a borefest like Sam!:-(
GRRM seems to get his kicks from it.

Nalz · 18-06-2015 10:18pm

seligehgit wrote: »

It's criminal to seemingly kill off characters like Jon Snow, Tywin, the Hound, Oberyn and Joffrey whilst keeping a borefest like Sam!:-(
GRRM seems to get his kicks from it.

Tbf there is lots of other strong characters still alive.

SoupyNorman · 19-06-2015 8:03am

seligehgit wrote: »

It's criminal to seemingly kill off characters like Jon Snow, Tywin, the Hound, Oberyn and Joffrey whilst keeping a borefest like Sam!:-(

If they only ever killed off fringe characters then it wouldn’t be the show it is today. I’ve never watched a show that periodically and unexpectedly punches me in the gut like this one does, just when you think you’ve seen the most shocking thing possible they come along and shock you even more.

Incidentally, I have a policy of not believing somebody is dead unless we see them die e.g. The Hound and Stannis. Now I’d say it’s safe to say The Hound is gone (sadly) but a return is not impossible.

seligehgit wrote: »

GRRM seems to get his kicks from it.

We’re 5 seasons in and yeah we seeing shocking moments but we’ve not been treated to big moments of revenge really. Arya’s revenge on Ser Meryn was decent but it didn’t catch you off guard. In reality the ‘baddies’ are still well in control.

This is what puzzles me, is GRRM just seriously having a laugh at us all or is it all leading to stiff peaks of sweet justice for all in the future. Will we look back at the complete series in the future and be like, “ah, that’s why season 5 was pretty lame, it had to be for the story to develop”.

Also, I like Sam, there is a reason for his presence and he will prove himself.

Dubh Geannain · 19-06-2015 12:47pm

I reckon Captain Friendzone will kill his love rival Darrio when he gets the chance.

Disappointing final episode tbh. As someone else said it was hard to keep track of who was getting killed off. I remarked to my wife 20 minutes in that there had been 4 people killed at that stage.

There was too much filler in the preceding episodes that we could have done without. Dorne, arya etc.

We don't get to see Stannis being slain. Will he be back?
We didn't see Reek and Sansa die. Should be back.
We never saw the Hound die either. Will he be back?
Cersei's daughter wasn't quite dead last we saw her either. Will she be back?

Jon Snow though. We better make sure people don't go away with a smidgen of hope. Olly with with the heart stab. Yep, he dead. :mad:

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 19-06-2015 12:57pm

I could have literally fast forward all of Aryas bits this season... Many faced God? Load of rubbish... Talking in riddles...rubbish. Apart from that and the rushed finale I really really enjoyed this season. Especially the two episodes preceeding the finale.

DarkoT · 19-06-2015 1:49pm

John Snow will come back alive sooner or later. Now everyone expects John to be resurrected but we also have many doubts, so the point of the show and the books is accomplished.

J. Marston · 19-06-2015 2:03pm

Stannis isn't coming back. What reason does Brienne have to stop mid-swing?

Berty44 · 19-06-2015 2:11pm

Watched Thronecast, Brienne was the guest and she basically said she took down a swathe of trees with the big swing she made taking his head off !

TerrorFirmer · 19-06-2015 2:25pm

DarkoT · 19-06-2015 3:47pm

J. Marston wrote: »

Stannis isn't coming back. What reason does Brienne have to stop mid-swing?

The reason to scare him? The reason that he is injured and maybe she needs some information of him? The reason that she just saw something, or heard something?

Riskymove · 19-06-2015 3:49pm

DarkoT wrote: »

The reason to scare him? The reason that he is injured and maybe she needs some information of him? The reason that she just saw something, or heard something?

his reaction to her "Go on, do your duty"

An injured and broken man

etc.

GOT has no problem showing people killed on all sorts of gruesome ways. If they didn't show him getting killed then....?

J. Marston · 19-06-2015 4:17pm

DarkoT wrote: »

The reason to scare him? The reason that he is injured and maybe she needs some information of him? The reason that she just saw something, or heard something?

Stannis doesn't get scared.

Not sure what info he has that she would want. Don't think he knows anything about Sansa.

Saw something or heard something? Maybe, but I doubt it.

The only way that I could see Stannis not being killed by her is if Pod killed Brienne from behind but that would make no sense.

PressRun · 19-06-2015 4:22pm

J. Marston wrote: »

The only way that I could see Stannis not being killed by her is if Pod killed Brienne from behind but that would make no sense.

Or if his line about "doing your duty" maybe got to her a little bit and made her realize that she made a much more recent promise to find and protect Sansa.

Pugzilla · 19-06-2015 4:28pm

I don't think Stannis is dead. He's a major character and his death should have been on-screen.

Brienne visibly hesitated just before she swung for a reason.

J. Marston · 19-06-2015 4:36pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXJcu8JbmEo

I slowed it down to quarter speed (Christ, I'm such a nerd....) and it doesn't look she hesitated in the swing at all and she's striking down so I don't think she could've hit the tree instead.

SoupyNorman · 19-06-2015 4:38pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

I don't think Stannis is dead. He's a major character and his death should have been on-screen.

Brienne visibly hesitated just before she swung for a reason.

In the same breathe, he's finished (ded kid, ded wife, ded army) so why keep him around.

So basically,

Marsella could be dead.

Stannis could be dead.

Jon could be dead.

Tune in next season to find out...I think that's as simple as it is right now.

Pugzilla · 19-06-2015 4:57pm

I think she was momentarily taken aback when Stannis said "Do your duty."
He's an injured and broken man. It's out of character for the honourable Brienne to kill him for revenge.

That said, he could well be dead. Only have to wait 10 more months to find out.

Pugzilla · 19-06-2015 6:19pm

Also, there must be more to come from Shireen's sacrifice. When Stannis threw leeches with Gendry's blood in the flames Joffrey and Robb Stark died shortly after.

So far all we've got from shireen's sacrafice is an improvement in the weather. I think Melisandre will use the sacrifice as a source of power for resurrecting Jon Snow.

PressRun · 19-06-2015 6:24pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

Also, there must be more to come from Shireen's sacrifice. When Stannis threw leeches with Gendry's blood in the flames Joffrey and Robb Stark died shortly after.

To be fair, there's nothing to say that either of their deaths truly had anything to do with Gendry or 'King's blood' or whatever. Joffrey was poisoned by people who had their own reasons for offing him, and Robb Stark died by his own poor judgement. It's pretty debatable how much the leeches had to do with either of those events.

Pugzilla · 19-06-2015 6:29pm

PressRun wrote: »

To be fair, there's nothing to say that either of their deaths truly had anything to do with Gendry or 'King's blood' or whatever. Joffrey was poisoned by people who had their own reasons for offing him, and Robb Stark died by his own poor judgement. It's pretty debatable how much the leeches had to do with either of those events.

Yes, but it's appears that this 'Lord of Light' has tangible effects on the world if a man can be brought repeatedly back from the dead and a shadow assasin can be summoned.

PressRun · 19-06-2015 6:48pm

Pugzilla wrote: »

Yes, but it's appears that this 'Lord of Light' has tangible effects on the world if a man can be brought repeatedly back from the dead and a shadow assasin can be summoned.

Possibly. What the shadow assassin has to do with the Lord of Light either is up for debate too, imo. Sure she summoned it, but how do we know that the Lord of Light was involved? The Lord of Light may very well exist, but I think the jury's out on whether Melisandre's magic up to this point has anything to do with that. The vast majority of the things attributed to the Lord of Light are things that could very well have happened on their own anyway. I suppose that's what having 'faith' is all about.

senordingdong · 19-06-2015 7:22pm

Well, she certainly had her reason for returning to castle black.
And we see the mountain resurrected in this episode too.

I'm sure one of John and Stannis will survive.

S05 Ep10 - "Mother's Mercy" - HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS

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