Ukraine: As it happens.

robindch · 15-06-2015 11:57PM

Isiah wrote: »

As the only person here who actually has any experience of Crimea and it's people I know you are talking crap. [...] There are no armed thugs.

Funny - my friends from Crimea, and my friends who have friends and family still there, say quite the opposite.

Isiah wrote: »

Where is the Russian jackboot?

В концах ног русских солдат в восточной Украине.

IrishTrajan · 16-06-2015 02:48AM

Isiah wrote: »

You don't think the US government is crazy? well I do and I think their foriegn policy has demonstrated this as well as their policy on guns and rampant police brutality.

Their foreign policy seems crazy if you're looking at it with a cursory glance. When you look at it in detail, there's a method to their madness.

Guns? Every statistic in the US has shown that their gun policy has not affected the crime rates in any noticeable manner (the FBI's own words). The rampant police brutality can be attributed to poor training, and the fact those cops are thrown into very stressful circumstances every day of the week, and even when they help people, they're spat at by the looney left. When they shoot a criminal who happens to be black, and if they happen to be white, they're called racist, regardless of the circumstances.

This is a far cry from Russia's policy, where you question Putin and your livelihood is as good as gone, and if you keep questioning, you end up having his men help you with your suicide.

LadyFenghuang · 16-06-2015 02:50AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Their foreign policy seems crazy if you're looking at it with a cursory glance. When you look at it in detail, there's a method to their madness.

Guns? Every statistic in the US has shown that their gun policy has not affected the crime rates in any noticeable manner (the FBI's own words). The rampant police brutality can be attributed to poor training, and the fact those cops are thrown into very stressful circumstances every day of the week, and even when they help people, they're spat at by the looney left. When they shoot a criminal who happens to be black, and if they happen to be white, they're called racist, regardless of the circumstances.

This is a far cry from Russia's policy, where you question Putin and your livelihood is as good as gone, and if you keep questioning, you end up having his men help you with your suicide.

The environment Putin rose out of and had to COMPETE with is corrupt and created a cunning deceptive leader. The environment is rotten it's on another level to the US.

robindch · 16-06-2015 04:26PM

Egginacup wrote: »

You can't bring any credence to your patheitic claims of violence in Crimea so call Putin a tyrant as your answer.

Well-known international peace-maker and all-round nice-guy, VVP, has announced that he's going to build some more nuclear weapons:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-33151125

No doubt, the USA "provoked" him into building more weapons of mass destruction.

Gatling · 16-06-2015 04:38PM

robindch wrote: »

Well-known international peace-maker and all-round nice-guy, VVP, has announced that he's going to build some more nuclear weapons:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-33151125

No doubt, the USA "provoked" him into building more weapons of mass destruction.

No doubt he's totally afraid of the 5000 US troops about to be stationed in eastern Europe.

Doesn't say a lot if vlad has to resort to nuclear weapons threats when he has 20,000 troops in eastern Ukraine and 30,000 in Crimea.

Count Dooku · 16-06-2015 07:02PM

Gatling wrote: »

All is rosy in Crimea.

180,0000 have fled persecution from Russian cronies and criminals .

Any proof?

Gatling wrote: »

People's legitimate businesses are been siezed and handed to pro Russians .

Probably, but in scale what is happening in Ukraine now

Gatling wrote: »

Thousands haven't been paid a penny including a promised pension increase.

It was delay due transferring databases from Ukrainian to Russian language, but it been sorted few months ago.

Gatling · 16-06-2015 07:46PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Any proof

United Nation offical figures.

Incorrect

Incorrect

Incorrect

Grayson · 16-06-2015 07:51PM

I posted this in the politics cafe, but it's probably worth reposting here.

Gatling · 16-06-2015 07:56PM

Grayson wrote: »

I posted this in the politics cafe, but it's probably worth reposting here.

Just watched that a few minutes ago now wait for the moans and cry of CIA propaganda.
Wonder how long it took to drive a tank from siberia to east Ukraine.

Been there not there .nor are there tanks ,artillery artillery anti air systems.
There would be no issue if Nato started a pin point air campaign to destroy the illegal forces in East Ukraine

Count Dooku · 16-06-2015 07:59PM

Gatling wrote: »

United Nation offical figures.

Lie - official UN figures for Crimea - 18,779, which also include soldiers and officers from Ukrainian army and their families, who returned back to mainland
http://unhcr.org.ua/attachments/article/971/IDP.pdf

Gatling wrote: »

Incorrect

Incorrect

Incorrect

Really?

Gatling · 16-06-2015 08:01PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Lie - official UN figures for Crimea - 18,779, which also include soldiers and officers from Ukrainian army and their families, who returned back to mainland
http://unhcr.org.ua/attachments/article/971/IDP.pdf

Really?

Try harder D for effort

Elmer Blooker · 16-06-2015 08:12PM

People actually take vice news seriously? I mean there's clever and cunning propaganda like the BBC but vice is so bad it's shameless.
example: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/vice-news-the-ukrainian-military-is-back-on-the-offensive-video-354564.html

Gatling · 16-06-2015 08:14PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

People actually take vice news seriously? I mean there's clever and cunning propaganda like the BBC but vice is so bad it's shameless.
example: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/vice-news-the-ukrainian-military-is-back-on-the-offensive-video-354564.html

Unlike the favourite RT offical Shill channel of the Kremlin

Grayson · 16-06-2015 08:26PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

People actually take vice news seriously? I mean there's clever and cunning propaganda like the BBC but vice is so bad it's shameless.
example: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/vice-news-the-ukrainian-military-is-back-on-the-offensive-video-354564.html

I have absolutely no idea what your point is. Somebody posted their video online and therefore the video is tainted?

Elmer Blooker · 16-06-2015 08:30PM

My point is I would put Simon Ostrovsky in the same category as Shaun Walker or Eliot Higgins.

Grayson · 16-06-2015 08:33PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

My point is I would put Simon Ostrovsky in the same category as Shaun Walker or Eliot Higgins.

I'd put you in the same category as Hitler and they guy who broke his leg having sex with a horse.

Is that the way this game works. Just put people into random groups and not offer a single fcuking bit of evidence or even a reason why?

Gatling · 16-06-2015 08:34PM

Grayson wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea what your point is. Somebody posted their video online and therefore the video is tainted?

See the pro Russians /Anti US posters beleave that if it's not from a Kremlin sponsored outlet then it's fake and CIA propaganda

Grayson · 16-06-2015 08:42PM

Gatling wrote: »

See the pro Russians /Anti US posters beleave that if it's not from a Kremlin sponsored outlet then it's fake and CIA propaganda

Especially when they try to say the guardian is western propaganda. The newspaper that bought us wiki-leaks and Edward Snowden is a US government mouthpiece.

Irish Praetorian · 16-06-2015 09:58PM

Gatling wrote: »

Try harder D for effort

With respect, I've been pretty pro-Ukrainian in this argument and I fail to see what part of that report doesn't corroborate his claim that the UN has recorded 18,779 displaced persons from Crimea since the conflict began?

Gatling · 16-06-2015 10:07PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

With respect, I've been pretty pro-Ukrainian in this argument and I fail to see what part of that report doesn't corroborate his claim that the UN has recorded 18,779 displaced persons from Crimea since the conflict began?

Ran the numbers Last year and posted links to the UN reports that stated the figures I posted been correct at the time of publication

Irish Praetorian · 16-06-2015 10:10PM

Gatling wrote: »

Ran the numbers Last year and posted links to the UN reports that stated the figures I posted been correct at the time of publication

And you're sure that's in reference purely to Crimea, not Crimea AND the East (which seems to be the source of the lions share of refugees in the UN report)?

Gatling · 16-06-2015 10:10PM

Grayson wrote: »

Especially when they try to say the guardian is western propaganda. The newspaper that bought us wiki-leaks and Edward Snowden is a US government mouthpiece.

Exactly and the same newspaper that is currently home to some several hundred Kremlin trolls who abuse and try to counter anyone who questions Vladimir 's new imperialist agenda

Grayson · 16-06-2015 11:14PM

Gatling wrote: »

Exactly and the same newspaper that is currently home to some several hundred Kremlin trolls who abuse and try to counter anyone who questions Vladimir 's new imperialist agenda

They have certain keywords in every post.

Nuland
Bandera
Provocation.
fascist
Nazi
CIA

robindch · 16-06-2015 11:16PM

Grayson wrote: »

Is that the way this game works. Just put people into random groups and not offer a single fcuking bit of evidence or even a reason why?

That's the way it works in Russian politics and Russian media outlets - mere evidence is frowned upon, when one can point fingers, and shout and scream instead. Elmer Blooker's otherwise worthless posts demonstrate this approach quite adequately.

Think toddlers, with billions to spend on a spiralling sugar-rush of simpering, vicious nationalism.

Lemming · 16-06-2015 11:23PM

robindch wrote: »

That's the way it works in Russian politics and Russian media outlets - mere evidence is frowned upon, when one can point fingers, and shout and scream instead. Elmer Blooker's otherwise worthless posts demonstrate this approach quite adequately.

Think toddlers, with billions to spend on a spiralling sugar-rush of simpering, vicious nationalism.

This cartoon (borrwed from someone else on the politics forum) succinctly sums up the situation:

http://i.imgur.com/ka4Gmd0.png

We are, all things considered, somewhere around stage three.

IrishTrajan · 17-06-2015 04:23AM

Gatling wrote: »

See the pro Russians /Anti US posters beleave that if it's not from a Kremlin sponsored outlet then it's fake and CIA propaganda

That's something a CIA shill would say.

robindch · 17-06-2015 06:57PM

Grayson wrote: »

I posted this in the politics cafe, but it's probably worth reposting here.

That's a great piece of reporting - track one piece of news, doggedly, and see where it leads.

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-06-2015 09:26PM

Just caught up on recent posts here after being away. Pity to see it break down into personal slagging.
Thought many of Isiah's comments were good and while I wouldn't be as easy on Russia, I do accept that it takes more then one to party.
For me this whole thing has little to do with Ukraine per se, rather it has to do with the sphere's of influence of the big powers. If Ukraine was left alone and stayed outside the EU embrace, there would have been no Russian 'invasion' or eastern rebellion. Russia has watched the former SSR's transform into EU and Nato states and felt threatened by this expansion. It saw Ukraine as a step too far and took action.
Whether this is an acceptable attitude to have in respect of a supposedly sovereign nation is another matter. But then the US is never slow in taking action whenever it sees it's interests threatened. So I would agree with Isiah that they are both at fault. But I would maintain that sovereignty must count for something. Despite Russia's fears, she has never come under attack from any of the other ex soviet states, EU or Nato. On her previous course (Prior to Putin) she was becoming one of the new economic powers of the world and would have been much better off in flexing those muscles then the military ones. Sadly his past has too much influence on his actions and he is now a piece of baggage Russia would be better off without. They need a leader with a history of commerce, finance, business, international trade.

InTheTrees · 17-06-2015 09:31PM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

Thought many of Isiah's comments were good and while I wouldn't be as easy on Russia, I do accept that it takes more then one to party.

What?

Are you actually going to blame Ukraine for defending itself??

??

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-06-2015 09:42PM

I don't think I blamed Ukraine at all.
In fact I think I said that it had little to do with Ukraine i.e. the reasoning behind the intervention was more regional then country specific.
I also pointed out that I thought that sovereignty should mean something. Sadly, when it comes to the big powers (both Russia and USA), sovereignty is very much a la carte.
The USA and Russia have their own agenda's and will not let the sovereignty of some other nation stand in the way of that agenda. This is not a proper approach, but it is the reality.
Maybe Ukraine's only fault in all this was naivety.

Ukraine: As it happens.

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