Ukraine: As it happens.

Isiah · 13-06-2015 02:14AM

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

I KNOW that is not true for a fact.

How do you know? There is no fighting there. Crimea is peaceful. People are enjoying the sun, and the sea just like they do every year. Nothing much has changed other than the general income levels have risen and some of the endemic corruption has been removed from things like hospitals. Sure the McDonald's in Yalta's embankment is closed and Ukraine stopped the buses to the mainland but I think people are generally doing ok. Unfortunately we cannot say the same for eastern Ukraine.

LadyFenghuang · 13-06-2015 02:18AM

Isiah wrote: »

How do you know? There is no fighting there. Crimea is peaceful. People are enjoying the sun, and the sea just like they do every year. Nothing much has changed other than the general income levels have risen and some of the endemic corruption has been removed from things like hospitals. Sure the McDonald's in Yalta's embankment is closed and Ukraine stopped the buses to the mainland but I think people are generally doing ok. Unfortunately we cannot say the same for eastern Ukraine.

News reports for one.

As for the situation in Eastern Ukraine, well that would be Russia's fault wouldn't it?

Isiah · 13-06-2015 02:45AM

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

News reports for one.

As for the situation in Eastern Ukraine, well that would be Russia's fault wouldn't it?

Show me a news report ?

I am not having the conversation of who's at fault.in Donbass region You do not understand the situation. There is no war in Crimea. Life goes on there. It's peaceful and people are now filling the beaches and enjoying the summer.

LadyFenghuang · 13-06-2015 02:49AM

independent.ie/world-news/putin-marks-victory-in-crimea-as-ukraine-violence-flares-30260982.html

Check the site I can't post Urls as a new user.

Isiah · 13-06-2015 02:53AM

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

independent.ie/world-news/putin-marks-victory-in-crimea-as-ukraine-violence-flares-30260982.html

Check the site I can't post Urls as a new user.

That is an article about fighting in Eastern Ukraine while Crimea celebrated the same national holiday all Russians do each year as they did for the past few decades. Controversial because Putin was there. Crimea is a different region to Eastern Ukraine

LadyFenghuang · 13-06-2015 02:57AM

bbc.com/news/world-europe-26504449

youtube.com/ . watch?v=pYA6LH8aPIU

LadyFenghuang · 13-06-2015 02:58AM

content/ukraine/crimea-typically-a-popular-tourist-spot-turns-into-peninsula-of-violence-fear-339950.html

Kiev post .com

Isiah · 13-06-2015 03:02AM

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

content/ukraine/crimea-typically-a-popular-tourist-spot-turns-into-peninsula-of-violence-fear-339950.html

Kiev post .com

Kiev post is a populist Kiev based news paper that regularly features articles glorifying far right militia fighters. It us NOT a credible news source. This is the same news outlet that claimed Russia used mini nukes on Ukraine. A propaganda publication

LadyFenghuang · 13-06-2015 03:03AM

Isiah wrote: »

Kiev post is a populist Kiev based news paper that regularly features articles glorifying far right militia fighters. It us NOT a credible news source. This is the same news outlet that claimed Russia used mini nukes on Ukraine. A propaganda publication

The BBC says similar.

Regardless Putin also is now responsible for causing instability in Eastern Ukraine.

And he is hardly bringing democracy. His record on human rights and freedom of speech is appalling.

Isiah · 13-06-2015 03:12AM

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

The BBC says similar.

Regardless Putin also is now responsible for causing instability in Eastern Ukraine.

And he is hardly bringing democracy. His record on human rights and freedom of speech is appalling.

Ok so how does this prove that Crimea Is not peaceful?. Is there war There ?No. Are there mass riots and demonstrations? No. Are things largely the same as they have always been for civilians? Yes.

LadyFenghuang · 13-06-2015 03:15AM

Isiah wrote: »

Ok so how does this prove that Crimea Is not peaceful?. Is there war There ?No. Are there mass riots and demonstrations? No. Are things largely the same as they have always been for civilians? Yes.

The BBC website has reported violence. He puts unfair force on the rest of Ukraine. He is a political bully.

Anyway I must go. Goodnight.

Isiah · 13-06-2015 03:21AM

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

The BBC says similar.

Regardless Putin also is now responsible for causing instability in Eastern Ukraine.

And he is hardly bringing democracy. His record on human rights and freedom of speech is appalling.

The revolution in 2014 was the cause of instability in all Ukraine. Putin supporting the rebels came later.

The government which eastern Ukraine voted for was ousted by thugs throwing petrol bombs. Democracy?

Democracy doesn't exist once you pass Hungary going East.

LadyFenghuang · 13-06-2015 03:24AM

Isiah wrote: »

Democracy doesn't exist once you pass Hungary going East.

For that I am very sorry. I agree with this statement and I think it's tragic.

Goodnight for now.

Isiah · 13-06-2015 03:24AM

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

The BBC website has reported violence. He puts unfair force on the rest of Ukraine. He is a political bully.

Anyway I must go. Goodnight.

One isolated incident of Violence at a demonstration does not make a country unsafe. My people over there have no trouble in their cities, stop wishing it upon them.

IrishTrajan · 13-06-2015 05:22AM

Isiah wrote: »

The government which eastern Ukraine voted for was ousted by thugs throwing petrol bombs. Democracy?

Democracy doesn't exist once you pass Hungary going East.

Eastern Ukraine only numbers 15 million. Why should they dictate who is President to the other 30 million?

Yanukovych was a corrupt bastárd who stole €100bn from the Ukrainian economy. He said he wouldn't sign a deal with the EU (which is what sparked the Maidan), then escalated by using police to assault protestors and using snipers on the civilians, before fleeing to Moscow.

Poroshenko comes off as a blundering idiot playing into Moscow's narrative of fascists in Ukraine, but he is doing what he has to. The international community won't help Ukraine, Ukraine needs to rely upon its own manpower to suppress a Russian-led revolt in the east (the very same thing they did with Georgia) so that the country can join the European Union and benefit from being a member (like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have [whose GDP per capita is greater than Russia's]).

Gatling · 13-06-2015 09:08AM

Isiah wrote: »

Crimea was in danger not of Kiev but of the maidan protests spreading there (including the mass rioting and burning of police)

Crimea did not want this, they did not identify with the revolution. I am Crimean. I think I know a bit more about public opinion there than someone who formed an opinion based on news and media.

I call bull****

Count Dooku · 13-06-2015 09:09AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Eastern Ukraine only numbers 15 million. Why should they dictate who is President to the other 30 million?

Why remaining 15 million should live under dictatorship of 30 million when law enforced by neo-Nazi paramilitaries?

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Yanukovych was a corrupt bastárd who stole €100bn from the Ukrainian economy.

Nice try, but whole Ukraine doesn't worse 100Bn

IrishTrajan wrote: »

He said he wouldn't sign a deal with the EU (which is what sparked the Maidan), then escalated by using police to assault protestors and using snipers on the civilians, before fleeing to Moscow.

It was EU who refused give him 5Bn in hope that he will be overthrown by crowd, so now West will have to pay 40Bn only to preserve failed state from total collapse.

Egginacup · 13-06-2015 01:57PM

Isiah wrote: »

That is an article about fighting in Eastern Ukraine while Crimea celebrated the same national holiday all Russians do each year as they did for the past few decades. Controversial because Putin was there. Crimea is a different region to Eastern Ukraine

Everybody on here, when asked to provide evidence of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, plaster images of Russian troops in CRIMEA and try to get away with that tired and sad trick.
It's lost on them that Russia troops were in Crimea WITH UKRAINE'S PERMISSION since 1991 and yet they still try to palm it off as an invasion. Then they say that the referendum to reunite with Russia was a rigged vote or was unfair. Again it's lost on them that Crimea was part of Russia for centuries. They don't complain that Crimea was given to Ukraine without a vote in 1954 yet cry foul when it voted to go back.

Then they can't explain why there is no popular resistance to this so-called Russian invasion/occupation. They claim that the vast majority of Crimeans oppose being part of Russia yet there isn't a single stone thrown at Russian cops/soldiers, not a single "Free Crimea" poster stuck on a wall, nothing. Throughout history you've had resistance movements, Tamil separatists, Viet Cong, ETA, IRA, PLO, etc but not a thing in so-called occupied Crimea. They must be the most passive opponents of occupation ever.
Then they complain that the referendum was invalid because there was no vote to maintain the status quo. They can't seem to get their heads around the fact that to vote for the status quo would be to give approval and recognition to the NATO orchestrated coup d'etat that ousted a democratically elected president and installed a neo nazi junta. Yanukovich may have been corrupt, like Charlie Haughey or Bertie Ahern, but he was still democratically elected nonetheless. The Kiev junta are now butchering civilians in Eastern Ukraine and the fools on here are saying it's all Russia's fault. These people are completely detached from reality and making it up as they go along.

Egginacup · 13-06-2015 02:00PM

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

The BBC says similar.

Regardless Putin also is now responsible for causing instability in Eastern Ukraine.

And he is hardly bringing democracy. His record on human rights and freedom of speech is appalling.

Nice deflecting. You can't bring any credence to your patheitic claims of violence in Crimea so call Putin a tyrant as your answer.

TerrorFirmer · 13-06-2015 02:01PM

Egginacup wrote: »

These people are completely detached from reality and making it up as they go along.

Great post.

Egginacup · 13-06-2015 02:06PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Eastern Ukraine only numbers 15 million. Why should they dictate who is President to the other 30 million?

Yanukovych was a corrupt bastárd who stole €100bn from the Ukrainian economy. He said he wouldn't sign a deal with the EU (which is what sparked the Maidan), then escalated by using police to assault protestors and using snipers on the civilians, before fleeing to Moscow.

Poroshenko comes off as a blundering idiot playing into Moscow's narrative of fascists in Ukraine, but he is doing what he has to. The international community won't help Ukraine, Ukraine needs to rely upon its own manpower to suppress a Russian-led revolt in the east (the very same thing they did with Georgia) so that the country can join the European Union and benefit from being a member (like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have [whose GDP per capita is greater than Russia's]).

Get the fuck out of here. The entire Ukraine economy is only 170 Billion and you claim Yanukovich pocketed TWO THIRDS of the entire country's GDP.

:pac:

Grayson · 13-06-2015 02:09PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Everybody on here, when asked to provide evidence of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, plaster images of Russian troops in CRIMEA and try to get away with that tired and sad trick.
It's lost on them that Russia troops were in Crimea WITH UKRAINE'S PERMISSION since 1991 and yet they still try to palm it off as an invasion. Then they say that the referendum to reunite with Russia was a rigged vote or was unfair. Again it's lost on them that Crimea was part of Russia for centuries. They don't complain that Crimea was given to Ukraine without a vote in 1954 yet cry foul when it voted to go back.

Then they can't explain why there is no popular resistance to this so-called Russian invasion/occupation. They claim that the vast majority of Crimeans oppose being part of Russia yet there isn't a single stone thrown at Russian cops/soldiers, not a single "Free Crimea" poster stuck on a wall, nothing. Throughout history you've had resistance movements, Tamil separatists, Viet Cong, ETA, IRA, PLO, etc but not a thing in so-called occupied Crimea. They must be the most passive opponents of occupation ever.
Then they complain that the referendum was invalid because there was no vote to maintain the status quo. They can't seem to get their heads around the fact that to vote for the status quo would be to give approval and recognition to the NATO orchestrated coup d'etat that ousted a democratically elected president and installed a neo nazi junta. Yanukovich may have been corrupt, like Charlie Haughey or Bertie Ahern, but he was still democratically elected nonetheless. The Kiev junta are now butchering civilians in Eastern Ukraine and the fools on here are saying it's all Russia's fault. These people are completely detached from reality and making it up as they go along.

Russian soldiers had permission to leave their bases and surround Ukrainian installations? They put military bases under siege and surrounded the parliament. Are you actually saying they had permission to take over the whole peninsula?

Bertie didn't steal 1/3 of the countries revenue. And we had protests but I never saw government snipers there.

Grayson · 13-06-2015 02:12PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Get the fuck out of here. The entire Ukraine economy is only 170 Billion and you claim Yanukovich pocketed TWO THIRDS of the entire country's GDP.

:pac:

Not in one year. He and his cronies did syphon off a third of the governments revenue. It's well documented how it happened. They have the full list of all the shell corporations.

Corruption was/is endemic there. The same as in Russia

Grayson · 13-06-2015 02:22PM

You can't seriously compare this kind of corruption to Bertie.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/25-tales-of-corruption-and-control-from-documents-found-at-t#.lbDZ3MRaXe

Egginacup · 13-06-2015 03:08PM

Grayson wrote: »

Not in one year. He and his cronies did syphon off a third of the governments revenue. It's well documented how it happened. They have the full list of all the shell corporations.

Corruption was/is endemic there. The same as in Russia

You seem very vociferous about corruption. What's your opinion about Washington's attempts to gut Ukraine's economy, fleece pensioners and had over Ukraine's vast agricultural wealth to Monsanto and Cargill? But at least you admit that the snipers shooting cops and demonstrators in Maidan were government, i.e. Yatsenyuk agents.

Egginacup · 13-06-2015 03:26PM

Grayson wrote: »

You can't seriously compare this kind of corruption to Bertie.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/25-tales-of-corruption-and-control-from-documents-found-at-t#.lbDZ3MRaXe

Well it's certainly along the lines of the corruption of Yatsenyuk and Poroshenko who are admittedly your darlings of democracy and transparency.

Egginacup · 13-06-2015 03:35PM

Grayson wrote: »

Russian soldiers had permission to leave their bases and surround Ukrainian installations? They put military bases under siege and surrounded the parliament. Are you actually saying they had permission to take over the whole peninsula?

Bertie didn't steal 1/3 of the countries revenue. And we had protests but I never saw government snipers there.

Whoa! Now back up a second there Grayson. If you are admitting that Russia has had troops guarding the naval base of Sevastopol then do the decent thing and tell your minions on here to stop trying to cloak this as a Russian invasion of Crimea.

Egginacup · 13-06-2015 04:10PM

The bottom line is that Washington tried to fcuk Putin over after he stymied their plans to turn Syria into another Iraq. That's what it's mostly about. That and preventing Russia from economically integrating with Europe outside of Washington's diktats. Merkel and Hollande are vehemently opposed to sanctions on Russia...T least behind closed doors. Countries once arselickers to Washington have started joining the Asian development bank and this has the old guard at the IMF and World Bank extremely peeved. They don't give a flying fcuk about Ukrainian freedom and democracy any more than they gave a toss about Libyan or Iraqi or Egyptian freedom and democracy. It's all about control and domination of markets and the Russkis and Chinks along with a few of their cheeky little brown-skinned sidekicks like Venezuela are displaying the sinful audacity of actually wanting to do things their own way.
China's star is on the rise. As Napoleon Bonaparte once said "When China awakens the world will tremble" and this during the height of British, French global power....long before America was a force with which to be reckoned.

Sea power is finished. America is finished. The only centre of wealth, power and planetary influence is the central mass of Europe, Asia and Africa.

Outlying islands like the Americas and Australia are becoming increasingly insignificant. This is anathema to Washington hence their failing attempts to retard the inevitable.

Gatling · 13-06-2015 04:15PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Merkel and Hollande are vehemently opposed to sanctions on Russia...T least behind closed doors. Countries once arselickers to Washington have started joining the Asian development bank and this has the old guard at the IMF and World Bank extremely peeved. They don't give a flying fcuk about Ukrainian freedom and democracy any more than they gave a toss about Libyan or Iraqi or Egyptian freedom and democracy. It's all about control and domination of markets and the Russkis and Chinks along with a few of their cheeky little brown-skinned sidekicks like Venezuela are displaying the sinful audacity of actually wanting to do things their own way.
China's star is on the rise. As Napoleon Bonaparte once said "When China awakens the world will tremble" and this during the height of British, French global power....long before America was a force with which to be reckoned.

Sea power is finished. America is finished. The only centre of wealth, power and planetary influence is the central mass of Europe, Asia and Africa.

Outlying islands like the Americas and Australia are becoming increasingly insignificant. This is anathema to Washington hence their failing attempts to retard the inevitable.

All this according to you really let's see all your evidence to back all the above statements up

Grayson · 13-06-2015 04:44PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Whoa! Now back up a second there Grayson. If you are admitting that Russia has had troops guarding the naval base of Sevastopol then do the decent thing and tell your minions on here to stop trying to cloak this as a Russian invasion of Crimea.

If american troops left their bases in the UK and surrounded Bitish military bases and then the houses of parliament, then forced the MP's to have a vote on "Joining" the US, I'd consider that an invasion.

As it is, US forces are nice and happy in their bases.

That's the difference. When Russian troops left their bases and surrounded Ukrainian troops, they invaded sovereign territory. You'll notice that Ukrainian troops didn't fire a shot. Despite having their gates rammed and troops flooding in.

You'll also notice that the situation in eastern Ukraine was stable until actual KGB agents turned up and declared a "republic". They then took over all the civilian institutions such as police stations. At that point the Ukrainians were still passively resisting.

Seriously though, how can you not call it an invasion when Russian troops actually surround barracks and take over territory.

Ukraine: As it happens.

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