Ukraine: As it happens.

Egginacup wrote: »

Now what I would say to you Grayson, and to your few little screechers on here, think very VERY carefully before you lend your support to Azov neo-nazis.

Easy with the screecher names

There's no-one on this thread or any other thread that supports the azov battalion. But we're also not going to label the thousands of maidan protesters or an entire democratically elected parliament nazi's because there's some right wing thugs there.
Right wing parties got very few votes in Ukraine. The number of actual neo nazis in the army/population/protesters/parliment is very few. The same way I wouldn't label the entirety of russia ultra right wing because there are some chetniks there, I wouldn't label Ukrainians at nazi's.

btw, the chetniks, the same ones that performed ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia, are fighting in Donbass with the separatists. They have committed horrendous war crimes in the past and are still doing so. I don't hear you complaining about them.

Egginacup wrote: »

That is really just a technicality.The coup in Kiev had never had any intention of improving the lives of Ukrainians. They are markedly worse off now than at any time in the last 10 years thanks to the junta. The coup was designed to carve up Ukraine's state owned assets and give them over to western corporations. It was also designed to scupper any trade agreements between Russia and Europe. Washington is afraid of any kind of economic partnership that goes ahead without its [Washington's] control.
Washington knows that Europe is supplied by Russian gas that runs through Ukraine. Washington essentially wants to stick up a toll-booth on the Ukraine border and control the flow of gas thus having Russia and Europe by the balls. Hey, with friends like that...

Finally Washington's aim was to gut Ukraine's economy, throttle gas exports to the EU, hamstring ANY kind of economic cooperation between Russia and the EU and finally to seize the port of Sevastopol thus denying Russia a warm water base for its Black Sea fleet. You would be insane if you think that Russia was going to allow that to happen. Russian troops prevented Ukrainian troops from seizing the base.
You don't like it that Putin outfoxed Washington so you stamp your feet in a temper tantrum and bitch about invasions and how Vlad just "doesn't play fair" as if the "rules" have any place in Washington's playbook.

So not only did Putin outsmart Washington in Crimea, he also pulled the plug on the South Stream pipeline and instead opted to build a pipeline through Turkey which Erdogan joyfully agreed to. That pipeline will supply Europe with gas without the need to traverse Ukraine. It will extend from Turkey through Greece. It will then pass through Macedonia. Marks for anyone with half a brain who can see the coincidence between this pipeline crossing Macedonia and the recent (outside orchestrated) violence IN Macedonia in the last month or two.

Like I said, Putin has outsmarted and outplayed Washington at every move of this game of chess that they are trying to play with him. You don't like it one bit and cry foul. I guess it "just isn't cricket", is it?

All according to you Putin had won some amazing game but yet.you can't back anything up .

Suppose we can wait for another several years for some real evidence of what your claiming. That or we all all go over the the politics forums where conspiracy theories aren't allowed

Egginacup wrote: »

And I'm not trolling. If I was I would be infracted or banned from this forum as trolling is against the charter. No, what I'm doing is pointing out the lies that you and others are spreading about Ukraine. You don't like it so you call it trolling.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling

"The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous"

You first joined the forum in July 2014 and opened with a question about why it's anyone's business but Malaysia and Russia's if Russia might have shot down one of their jets...

More directly pertaining to this topic however, you have quite the track record when it comes to being outrageous;

You asked what was the evidence that Russia had invaded Crimea
-People pointed to the forces attacking Ukrainian installations in the area

You asked how this constituted an invasion arguing Russia always had troops in the area
- People pointed to the fact that traditionally speaking such forces didn't engage in combat with Ukrainian forces

You asked how this was the fault of the Russians if the locals didn't like the new coup/fascist/fascist coup/neo-nazi/fascist neo-nazi junta in Kiev
- People pointed out that neo-nazi parties don't make up part of the new government

You asked why then we're Russians under attack in places like Odessa and being burned alive
- People pointed out that such a clash appeared to arise following a violent confrontation between two mobs

You asked why would this not mean that more Russian provinces like Donetsk and Luhasnk not want to break away.
- People pointed out that the separatist forces appear to be largely Russian in composition.

You asked what evidence there was that Russia had invaded those regions, after all, Kiev (being nearly the other side of the country) was still standing and Russia hadn't bombed it to the ground.
- People pointed out to the testimony of journalists on the ground

You asserted such journalists were going to be either in the pay of corrupt Westerners or incapable of accurately ascertaining military movements.
- People referred to the declarations of NATO on the matter.

You demanded the names of NATO officials who actually put themselves behind such declarations.
- People gave the names of the individuals involved.

You demanded names of more senior officials people who weren't as you alleged, going to be 'patsies' or 'small fry' whilst the bigwhigs escaped scrutiny, and of course, where were the satellite images.
- People gave you the satellite images.

You were still unsatisfied, after all, Russia had provided satellite images of MH17 being shot down by a Ukrainian fighter had it not?
- People showed you the preliminary report of the Dutch investigative team which indicated the aircraft had been penetrated from a number of high velocity objects externally.

You intimated that a cover-up was ongoing, after all, why wasn't the full investigative report released? (who knew investigating a plain crash might take time)
- People provided you with a selection of information indicating the presence of a BUK launcher in the area and initial declarations of success on the part of local rebel commanders.

You appeared to back away for a while and proclaim how convinced you were by an ABC report on the crash, later revealed to being a display of sarcasm on your part.

That pretty much brings us up to the present, you've since returned to the debate with the usual canards of Western malevolence, conspiratorial ravings and a few masked personal attacks on people. Now if this isn't trolling, I'm not sure what is.

So, I've come to the conclusion that it might be wisest to report you to the admins and let them take a view on the situation, I would encourage anyone who is suspicious as I am to do the same, rather than perpetuating this pretty vapid back and forth any longer.

Grayson wrote: »

Unless they're Tatar. Or if they disagree with the Russian authorities. It's been well documented that many people who objected to the invasion have disappeared or been locked up. Many more have had all their property taken away.

What about the neighbor of my mother in law in Crimea who regularly shouts abuse at the police in Crimea (She is pro Ukrainian). She is still alive, no abductions, no harassment (despite the harassment she dishes out)

Thing is, I Know people there, I get first hand information from my direct relatives and friends. I have recently been there and go every year (To Yalta).

Everyone here writes statements with such an authoritative air but how many people have first hand experience of the situation in Crimea ? none thats how many.

So my mother in laws neighbor will continue to shout abuse at the local police, nothing will happen to her and all you people will continue to believe (because Sky news told you) that dissenting voices are silenced and people are being killed. That's one example you say?
Well there are more, but I see the appetite for information from people who, you know actually have people on the ground in Crimea is weak here. Much easier to swallow the Crimean's are suffering story instead of the actual truth that you might discover if you get off your ass and go talk to a Crimean before condemning the whole country to hell. (There are at least 2000 of them in Ireland)

As for the Tartar's; Look on the old news reports at how Tartar's were treated by Ukraine before pointing the finger at Russia.

Tartarstan is a republic filled with Tartars who live happily in Russia. Which by the way is the most ethnically diverse place on Earth (fact). Where are the race riots like you have in the USA? nowhere....hmm almost like Russia treats it's ethnic minorities better than the Yanks! But that's not what Sky says! or the Beeb! or the flipping Journal (we all know where they stand on just about everything)

Open your god damn eyes people and turn off the TV before you really lose the ability to discern reality and when you are being shovel fed propaganda.

Isiah wrote: »

Open your god damn eyes people and turn off the TV before you really lose the ability to discern reality and when you are being shovel fed propaganda.

That's rich coming from the guy who's just been prattling on about his mother in laws neighbour.

You're telling me to disbelieve ALL western media, from the daily telegraph, to ie monde to the communist party daily... and to only believe the openly censored official Russian news agency???

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Do you actually believe this? Also, I'm pretty sure China would be the most diverse. There's like 50+ different ethnic groups.

As for the rest, I'm sorry but you can not use anecdotal evidence, that's a fallacious argument.

There are 185 ethnic groups in Russia.

InTheTrees wrote: »

That's rich coming from the guy who's just been prattling on about his mother in laws neighbour.

You're telling me to disbelieve ALL western media, from the daily telegraph, to ie monde to the communist party daily... and to only believe the openly censored official Russian news agency???

No I never said that you should disbelieve all Western media. I never said that you should believe Russian media. This originally started when someone said there was war in Crimea and I pointed out that there was not. I told the truth based on fact and she insisted I was lying. Which means that her, and people like her have been brainwashed into believing things that are not true to a point that, when someone points out, hey you know, I've been there and know people there and it's really not that bad at all, I get shut down and told that I am spouting propaganda.

That's a solid example to me of someone being brainwashed by media into hysterical notions that Crimea is bad, and everyone is suffering, and there is violence everywhere etc... When this is, in fact, not true!

IrishTrajan wrote: »

And you said Tartarstan is the most diverse place on the planet, not Russia.

I said Russia, you inferred Tartarstan from my construction of thesentence. My fault if I left it too vague, but I figured you all might be smart enough to understand that of the two places I mentioned, the context for that point was the country of Russia. Because Tartarstan is obviously not in the running for that. Don't insult my, or your, intelligence by resorting to silly nitpicking.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I think that mentality is what drives a great many Ukrainians mad, "You're not a real country because you were annexed a couple centuries ago!". That would be like saying Dublin should be part of England because it was under English control for 800 years.



Syria and Iran have borders with Russia? Moldova has a border with Russia? Tajikistan or Armenia have borders with Russia?

The only reason Russia doesn't have the same power projection as the US is because it can't afford it, which isn't stopping them from developing and designing strategic lift aircraft to deploy an entire armoured division anywhere in the world. It doesn't stop them from building alliances with Vietnam, or Syria, or Venezuela.

Limiting something to "since 1990" is also farcical. Russia (and its precursor, the USSR) is (and was) an incredibly belligerent power who didn't hesitate to go back on deals with their "allies" (like installing Communist parties in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Poland, et al), and who won't hesitate to install puppet regimes into nations where they are interested.

That is to say nothing of the fact it is Russian arms fuelling the war in Syria/Iraq. The US cut their exports to Iraq over fears that they might fall into the hands of extremists, and Russia was only too happy to plug that gap by selling thousands of small arms and hundreds of thousands of rounds.

Iran?? Syria?? When did Russia invade or attack Iran or Syria in the last 20 years?

Moldova was part of Russia, whats left of the Russian element there is what is left of the old Russian border.

And how is it farcical to talk about Russia in this generation? The leaders of the USSR are dead or too old to have any influence. The Russia of today is the Russia of the last 20-30 years.

The only way you can make Russia come off worse than America for causing war and strife is if you dig back into the last 100 years.

In the last 20-30 years the USA (And UK) has caused far far more death in the world than Russia.

How can you even mention Iraq and USA in the same sentence and somehow expect the Russians to come out of that one looking bad. Iraq is FUBAR because of the USA.

Have you seen a map recently? Iran is one country away from Russia. I call that a neighbor just like England is our neighbor despite having wales in the middle. Syria's not exactly far either.


Anyway, anyone with an iota of sense knows Russia and the USA are having a pissing contest and that the USA pisses higher. Everyone knows that they both sell weapons abroad etc, again the USA sells a lot more. They all regularly buzz each others airspace and flex their muscles.

But a world without Russia, Iran or China would mean a world where the USA gets what it wants, all the time, and that is a very scary thought.

Americans are, a great people and they have given our world so much (As did the the Russians for that matter). But their government and ruling class is batsh!t crazy. Just as crazy as Putin if not more so.

All is rosy in Crimea.

180,0000 have fled persecution from Russian cronies and criminals .
People's legitimate businesses are been siezed and handed to pro Russians .
Thousands haven't been paid a penny including a promised pension increase.

All is well in Crimea it helps if you have 30,000 heavily armed soldiers and corrupt militias including the notorious Berkut unit formerly of Ukraine who just happened to shoot and kill how many innocent unarmed protesters in Kiev 12 months ago .

Some people honestly try any old stories to convince the world this is a happy situation.

And 6000 dead not 10,000 + bandied around so far unless someone is saying 4000 Russians have died in Ukraine

robindch wrote: »

I suggest you go visit Russia, find out for yourself what it's like, then come back here and retract that very silly comment.

You don't think the US government is crazy? well I do and I think their foriegn policy has demonstrated this as well as their policy on guns and rampant police brutality.

I have been to Russia. I have been to Crimea and I have been all over Ukraine.
My parents are from Crimea and the other from Ireland. I myself married someone from Crimea. I know full well what life is like in Russia and the USA as I have been to both many times.

Give me Western Europe any day over either. Both two extremes of craziness. The point I am making here is that people in Crimea are not suffering under a brutal regime as people have suggested. Crimea is at peace.

Where is the Russian jackboot?

In your head thats where.

Anyway I'm off this thread. Too many hard cases and I don't have the time nor the energy to argue with people who are convinced I am wrong regardless of what I say. As soon as I stepped out side the general paradigm I was hated. I get it. You guys want people to suffer. Maybe you should take a look at yourselves.