Equality of marriage and love

MrPudding · 07-06-2015 9:17am

SpaceTime wrote: »

I know where it comes from but it's just that the search engine is being expected to make decisions on who has and hasn't a right to be forgotten.

Short of ordering the burning of newspaper archives, I think the law in this area is utterly ridiculous.

You can't just erase history!

I think the issue is that google is so effective at finding stuff simply being removed from google searches is extremely effective at hiding one's past. History has not changed, information has not been erased, it is just slightly harder to get at it. I don't know if I would go so far as to say the law in this area is ridiculous, but I would say it is not without issue. I understand the principle behind it, and I think it is a good one, but it is yet another difficulty of 'analogue' laws and principles trying to be shoe-horned into the digital world.

Personally I think it is a fascinating area of discussion. I know you know where it comes from but in case you are interested, or for anyone not as familiar with the subject, here are a few interesting articles.

MrP

iguana · 07-06-2015 9:51am

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

So he's basically a fotl stuck on a slightly different form of legalistic woo then.

No, more like a drug addict who has found a good "friend" in their drug dealer. So instead of listening to the people who love him telling him they have a problem he listens to the guy who encourages his awful behaviour for his own benefit. That stops him from ever accessing the help he needs to live well and the dealer knows this but doesn't actually give a **** because he only cares about his own agenda.

That's how I see the relationship between Lyons and Eldridge from the information we have available. Lyons has most probably played a huge role in fúcking up his family but instead of having to face that, he has Eldridge feeding him full of self-righteous bs and encouraging him in worse and worse behaviour. This takes away whatever chance Lyons has of becoming someone who can salvage happiness and satisfaction from his life by encouraging him in these ludicrous actions but Eldridge's agenda is his priority not Lyons' wellbeing.

oscarBravo · 07-06-2015 11:34pm

Smiley92a wrote: »

If you're interested in some critical reading on state power and violence by someone who isn't mad, David Graeber's written some interesting stuff. He argues that state power is ultimately based on physical coercion. Of course, this might well be a necessary evil of living in a society...

That would be my take on it. Jill Leovy's Ghettoside is a fascinating read; it makes the point that a state monopoly on violence is the only thing that has been consistently proven throughout history to reduce overall violence in society to acceptable levels.

If someone has a problem with state power being based on a monopoly on violence, they need to be asked what the alternative is. For some, the answer is, in effect, a market in violence. Yay.

robindch · 08-06-2015 10:08am

Australian Bishop says children of gay couples next ‘Stolen Generation’

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/06/04/bishop-says-australian-children-of-gay-couples-next-stolen-generation/

Pink News wrote:

A Catholic Bishop in South Australia has compared children of gay couples to children forcibly removed from Aboriginal families. In the ongoing debate around same-sex marriage in Australia, Bishop Greg O’Kelly said that it was likely children of same-sex couples would consider themselves the next “Stolen Generation”.

The Stolen Generation refers to Aboriginal children who were removed from their families by the Australian government, from 1909 up until the 1970s. The children were taken into state care for often spurious reasons, under the guise of their own protection. It is considered to be a dark and shameful event in Australian history.

Bishop O’Kelly said: “Can’t you imagine a situation that when there’s a falling-out between a child and a parent, as can happen, that’ll be one of the lines they use? – ‘You deliberately intervened so that I would not have a father present in my upbringing, or not have a mother present in my upbringing. And that was a deliberate intervention by you, it wasn’t an accident, it wasn’t illness or anything like that.’.”

Rodney Crome of Marriage Equality Australia told abc: “Many same-sex couples and their children will be deeply offended by the Catholic bishop’s drawing a link between their loving families and the Stolen Generation, such a traumatic episode in Australian history. There is no legal link between marriage and children. But I understand that in many people’s mind there is a cultural link. Marriage can be good for children, because it provides them with a greater sense of security and stability in their lives. If that is the case, then why would we deny the children being raised by same-sex couples the opportunity to have married parents?”

An Australian Catholic bishop has come under fire for sending parents anti-same-sex marriage booklets.

Brian Shanahan · 08-06-2015 7:33pm

robindch wrote: »

Australian Bishop says children of gay couples next ‘Stolen Generation’

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/06/04/bishop-says-australian-children-of-gay-couples-next-stolen-generation/

Denigrating both gays and native aboriginies.

I wonder if the bishop is starving himself with all the feet he's lodged into his big ugly gob.

Nodin · 08-06-2015 7:49pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Denigrating both gays and native aboriginies.

I wonder if the bishop is starving himself with all the feet he's lodged into his big ugly gob.

It's where the gays will get the energy for the child stealin, after the partyin, non-stop-sex, infiltratin and society destroyin activities that I want to know. Is it some gay Red Bull that keeps them going?

volchitsa · 08-06-2015 7:57pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Denigrating both gays and native aboriginies.

I wonder if the bishop is starving himself with all the feet he's lodged into his big ugly gob.

And - of course :mad: - he's called O' Kelly. Could he not have been from Italian or Polish immigrants? Why are the maddest ones so often Irish?

robindch · 09-06-2015 10:15am

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Denigrating both gays and native aboriginies.

As well as apparently-ignorant of the history of his own religious club.

SpaceTime · 09-06-2015 10:33am

The Catholic Church's really lost the right to moralise about adoption :

Ireland : where do you even start ... So many horror stories and so much pain caused to so many people - magdalene laundries, forced & hidden adoptions, children trafficked to America, institutional abuse ...

Spain : facilitated 300,000+ kidnappings where children where literally removed from parents who were told they'd died shortly after birth and placed with "suitable" families.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-15335899

JaseBelleVie · 09-06-2015 6:32pm

One of the most unbelievable things about this whole referendum and the fallout of it has been the complete turn my own father has done on the church.

I was always a punk-ass atheist from about the age of 12. More to do with not wanting to endure going to mass and being generally a rebellious little sh*te than any moral questions. Initially anyway. My repugnance with anything religious was copper-fastened with the emerging revelations of child sexual abuse in the church, murders and deaths committed in the Muslim world, the Israel-Palestine conflict and basically all the evil and death committed in the name of any religion.

However, my own parents remained pretty devout and never upset the boat, despite it all. I even got my ass handed to me by the father about 4/5 years ago when I maintained that the evil done by the church here far outweighed any good that was done, that the good people in the church were cowards for not speaking out when they had a chance and so on. My father reacted with screeching at me and an argument ensued.

Today, was talking with him and he was losing his sh*t over it and said how the evils outdid the good, how the church was full of cowards who never spoke out, etc. I reacted with "Hold on! You laid into me a few years back for saying the same things!"

"I did no such thing!" he screeches at me.

I decide better of it and leave it.

But for a man such as him, who still used to bless himself passing a church and was a regular Holy Joe to turn his back on the church so completely and utterly is staggering for me. I can't quite believe it just yet, but this seems to be fairly firm. The names he called various religious orders and members thereof today was frightening and I shudder to think what will happen when the local church goes around collecting "dues" or anything. I'll probably have to bail him out of the local cop shop.

But this to me is striking for how some of the members are getting turned against the church now; while my mother is still a bit apologist, the father has gone full on with it now. This is so staggering to me. Many an argument was had just a few short years ago with me and my godless ways, versus him and his bible-bashing ways. I cannot fully comprehend it yet.

But it just goes to show, there are people, even older people (not that the father is that old just yet) who are turning their backs on the church now. It's not just the younger people (my generation and younger) who are doing it. It's across the whole cross-section of society.

robindch · 10-06-2015 9:42am

Cabaal wrote: »

Great, Kilkenny in the news....and not for a good reason...sigh

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/legal-bids-to-challenge-same-sex-marriage-result-due-1.2237552

Gerry Walshe is appealing the decision:

http://www.thejournal.ie/court-marriage-referendum-2152014-Jun2015/?utm_source=email

Would love to know where he's getting the cash from.

Penn · 10-06-2015 1:36pm

robindch wrote: »

Gerry Walshe is appealing the decision:

http://www.thejournal.ie/court-marriage-referendum-2152014-Jun2015/?utm_source=email

Would love to know where he's getting the cash from.

"What's the reason for your appeal?"
"You didn't agree with me!"

SpaceTime · 10-06-2015 1:54pm

JaseBelleVie wrote: »

One of the most unbelievable things about this whole referendum and the fallout of it has been the complete turn my own father has done on the church.

I was always a punk-ass atheist from about the age of 12. More to do with not wanting to endure going to mass and being generally a rebellious little sh*te than any moral questions. Initially anyway. My repugnance with anything religious was copper-fastened with the emerging revelations of child sexual abuse in the church, murders and deaths committed in the Muslim world, the Israel-Palestine conflict and basically all the evil and death committed in the name of any religion.

However, my own parents remained pretty devout and never upset the boat, despite it all. I even got my ass handed to me by the father about 4/5 years ago when I maintained that the evil done by the church here far outweighed any good that was done, that the good people in the church were cowards for not speaking out when they had a chance and so on. My father reacted with screeching at me and an argument ensued.

Today, was talking with him and he was losing his sh*t over it and said how the evils outdid the good, how the church was full of cowards who never spoke out, etc. I reacted with "Hold on! You laid into me a few years back for saying the same things!"

"I did no such thing!" he screeches at me.

I decide better of it and leave it.

But for a man such as him, who still used to bless himself passing a church and was a regular Holy Joe to turn his back on the church so completely and utterly is staggering for me. I can't quite believe it just yet, but this seems to be fairly firm. The names he called various religious orders and members thereof today was frightening and I shudder to think what will happen when the local church goes around collecting "dues" or anything. I'll probably have to bail him out of the local cop shop.

But this to me is striking for how some of the members are getting turned against the church now; while my mother is still a bit apologist, the father has gone full on with it now. This is so staggering to me. Many an argument was had just a few short years ago with me and my godless ways, versus him and his bible-bashing ways. I cannot fully comprehend it yet.

But it just goes to show, there are people, even older people (not that the father is that old just yet) who are turning their backs on the church now. It's not just the younger people (my generation and younger) who are doing it. It's across the whole cross-section of society.

I've several elderly atheist relatives and I think you've also got for remember that it's often those generations who faced the most extreme oppression by the church and the establishment.

The church crossed the line in a massive way and I think that's what you're seeing now. It's not a dramatic protest or an angry uprising it's actually the worst thing possible for a large organisation like the church -- people are just moving on. The spell's broken.

This isn't unique at all though we're just having it a little later than a lot of countries in Europe. They were all quite socially oppressive and religious not all that long ago. I mean even the Nordic bin tries have a history of being quite puritanical until the 1970s

Spain has walked exactly the same path too and are probably a few years ahead of us on it.

lazygal · 10-06-2015 2:08pm

For a lot of people of a certain generation there also was no social life outside of the church. Especially in rural areas, where things like the missions, the stations and various other events throughout the year were completely intertwined with the community, so you went along with them or you were alone. I certainly saw this when more elderly relatives were alive, mass on a Saturday or Sunday was a centre to the week and a reason to get out of the house as much as a religious observance. My parents are both from rural areas (but moved when they were finished school) and for their generation still living in their areas there's still the fact that the Catholic church has an influence on community events keeping many people in the fold, even though in many cases people openly say they don't believe any of the teachings and don't like the institution itself.

Nodin · 10-06-2015 6:22pm

Bad Horse wrote: »

"What's the reason for your appeal?"
"You didn't agree with me!"

"What's the reason for your appeal?"
"You were feckin wrong"
"Don't address the court in that Fashion"
"Sorry-You were feckin wrong, yer honour

robindch · 10-06-2015 7:22pm

Nodin wrote: »

"What's the reason for your appeal?"
"You were feckin wrong"
"Don't address the court in that Fashion"
"Sorry-You were feckin wrong, yer honour

"An here, who did the wiring job? Rotten work. Whole lot's going to have to go."

PopePalpatine · 10-06-2015 9:52pm

robindch wrote: »

"An here, who did the wiring job? Rotten work. Whole lot's going to have to go."

Shoddy workmanship, that's what it is! Shoddy, shoddy, SHODDY!

Going Strong · 11-06-2015 9:00am

I don't know about you lot but I, for one, was totally taken by surprise with this one.

No change in priests’ role in civil aspect of marriage - primate

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/no-change-in-priests-role-in-civil-aspect-of-marriage-primate-1.2244959

I'm sure they made this decision for moral reasons of course and not for the continued and much relied on revenue stream from church weddings.

Frank Bullitt · 11-06-2015 8:29pm

http://www.buzzfeed.com/robstott/this-couple-is-vowing-to-get-divorced-if-marriage?bffb&utm_term=4ldqpgp#.byXXk6Ve2

Meanwhile in Australia, some idiot has said he and his wife of 10 years, will divorce if Gay marriage is put though.

Divorce...remind me again of the stance the church had on this a few years ago?

SpaceTime · 11-06-2015 8:37pm

Gintonious wrote: »

http://www.buzzfeed.com/robstott/this-couple-is-vowing-to-get-divorced-if-marriage?bffb&utm_term=4ldqpgp#.byXXk6Ve2

Meanwhile in Australia, some idiot has said he and his wife of 10 years, will divorce if Gay marriage is put though.

Divorce...remind me again of the stance the church had on this a few years ago?

Rock solid marriage there! Someone's marriage causes them to get divorced?!?

robindch · 11-06-2015 10:48pm

^^^ That story doesn't seem to have had quite the galvanizing effect its wayward authors expected:

Original article - http://citynews.com.au/2015/gay-law-change-may-force-us-to-divorce/ ("waaah, my marriage is being 'redefined'")

A woman responds - http://www.mamamia.com.au/lifestyle/couple-divorce-gay-marriage/ ("Dude, are you on crack?")

Newthump sashays up - http://newsthump.com/2015/06/11/australian-couple-to-kill-own-children-if-gays-are-allowed-to-adopt/

NewsThump wrote:

The Jensens have been hailed as heroes by the Christian community, but as borderline simpletons by anyone with even the remotest concept of empathy for people who were born homosexual.

Canberra resident Simon Williams told us, “Look, they’re as entitled to their opinion as anyone, but if they’re going to stop doing things just because gay people are allowed to do it, how about they start with ‘breathing’?”

robindch · 11-06-2015 10:50pm

Meanwhile, stateside, Glen Beck, the idiot's Bill O'Reilly, claims he has a network of at least 10,000 religious fundamentalists ready to die opposing gay rights.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/06/08/glenn-beck-claims-he-has-network-of-10000-pastors-willing-to-die-opposing-gay-rights-video/

Glen Beck wrote:

“‘The number in the Black Robe Regiment is about 70,000 now,’ Beck told his listeners. ‘The number that I think will walk through a wall of fire, you know, and possible death, is anywhere between 17,000 and 10,000. That is an extraordinary number of people that are willing to lay it all down on the table and willing to go to jail or go to death because they serve God and not man.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1N3zOqzNM8

magicbastarder · 11-06-2015 11:27pm

JESUSHAD!

Bannasidhe · 11-06-2015 11:52pm

robindch wrote: »

Meanwhile, stateside, Glen Beck, the idiot's Bill O'Reilly, claims he has a network of at least 10,000 religious fundamentalists ready to die opposing gay rights.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/06/08/glenn-beck-claims-he-has-network-of-10000-pastors-willing-to-die-opposing-gay-rights-video/

Wall of Fire eh?

*starts sticking marshmallows on the end of pointy sticks*

Hotblack Desiato · 12-06-2015 1:50am

10,000 christians thinking they'll get to heaven a bit faster is not at all impressive.

Smiley92a · 12-06-2015 2:00am

C'mon, Glen. Let's see some commitment...

endacl · 12-06-2015 10:18am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

10,000 christians thinking they'll get to heaven a bit faster is not at all impressive.

When we see the order for 10000 lions to the US, we'll know the christians are really getting serious...

lazygal · 12-06-2015 10:20am

Just checking back in. It's been a few weeks now, so how many children have been gay adopted?

endacl · 12-06-2015 10:21am

lazygal wrote: »

Just checking back in. It's been a few weeks now, so how many children have been gay adopted?

All of them. Who's your daddy?

lazygal · 12-06-2015 10:23am

endacl wrote: »

All of them. Who's your daddy?

Hopefully not David Quinn.:(

galljga1 · 12-06-2015 10:24am

robindch wrote: »

Meanwhile, stateside, Glen Beck, the idiot's Bill O'Reilly, claims he has a network of at least 10,000 religious fundamentalists ready to die opposing gay rights.

I do not have a problem with 10,000 assholes dieing.

galljga1 · 12-06-2015 10:25am

lazygal wrote: »

Just checking back in. It's been a few weeks now, so how many children have been gay adopted?

I'm still trying to get rid of mine...no joy.

endacl · 12-06-2015 10:27am

galljga1 wrote: »

I'm still trying to get rid of mine...no joy.

Swop for anything in my ads?

Bannasidhe · 12-06-2015 10:39am

I wish people would stop trying to off load their snot nosed brats on me :mad:.

You did the deed now mind the seed, breeders!

I am far to busy shredding the old itchy fabric of Irish society* and replacing it with high thread count unbleached organic cotton so teach your own damn children how to dance, dress, decorate and other things that start with the letter D.

*For recycling into paper obvs.

galljga1 · 12-06-2015 10:40am

endacl wrote: »

Swop for anything in my ads?

You have no active adds at the mo.....still tempted.

galljga1 · 12-06-2015 10:42am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I wish people would stop trying to off load their snot nosed brats on me :mad:.

You did the deed now mind the seed, breeders!

I am far to busy shredding the old itchy fabric of Irish society* and replacing it with high thread count unbleached organic cotton so teach your own damn children how to dance, dress, decorate and other things that start with the letter D.

*For recycling into paper obvs.

It's the only reason I voted. I feel I have been used and let down.

lazygal · 12-06-2015 10:45am

galljga1 wrote: »

It's the only reason I voted. I feel I have been used and let down.

+1:mad:

Bannasidhe · 12-06-2015 10:46am

galljga1 wrote: »

It's the only reason I voted. I feel I have been used and let down.

We did say it wasn't about children (nice gay way of saying we have seen your children and ick... no thanks!).

Over and over and over again we said 'nooooo... we don't want your children... we mean it... really..!' but ye all had to listen to Quinny so complain to him.

PopePalpatine · 12-06-2015 10:51am

galljga1 wrote: »

I do not have a problem with 10,000 assholes dieing.

Too bad they're probably going to go full Daesh when they do so.

Not a NSA agent · 12-06-2015 10:33pm

lazygal wrote: »

Just checking back in. It's been a few weeks now, so how many children have been gay adopted?

While talking to my mother a gay couple punched her in the face and ran off with me. In between making me listen to Elton john they are arguing about who will get the fathers day present.Due to mothers day being gotten rid of the other cant get one then.

I didnt even know you could adopt a person in their 20s.

Going Strong · 13-06-2015 9:58am

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

While talking to my mother a gay couple punched her in the face and ran off with me. In between making me listen to Elton john they are arguing about who will get the fathers day present.Due to mothers day being gotten rid of the other cant get one then.

I didnt even know you could adopt a person in their 20s.

"Mum, Dad, I have something to tell you. I'm gay, gay adopted."

Hotblack Desiato · 13-06-2015 10:30am

Gaydopted.

Going Strong · 13-06-2015 11:55am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Gaydopted.

"Son, your mother and I think it's time to tell you about the facts of life. You're old enough now to know that the world can be a scary and dangerous place at times. There's men out there son who might pretend to like you and tell you stories of walking tours of the hill villages of Andalusia, the joys of inner city loft living and the thrill of Sunday brunch in an idiosyncratic cat cafe.

This might sound wonderful my boy but they're trying to lull you into a false sense of security before gay adopting you. The courts would force us to hand you over to these men so that they can change your surname to theirs and make you get liposuction to fit into the skinniest of jeans. Being raised by two men as well will mean that your immortal soul will be forever stained and Jesus won't want you in Heaven when you die. Probably of AIDS.

Yes, I know Darren was gay adopted and looks like he's having a great time but, you should know that his birth parents voted for Same Sex Marriage so it was always on the cards that they'd hand him over to the first gay couple who knocked on their door.

What can you do? Well, the courts and the politicians are of no use so I suggest you stay in your room. We'll lock the door from the outside and feed you through a flap at the bottom. It's the only way to be safe."

MrPudding · 14-06-2015 12:25pm

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

I didnt even know you could adopt a person in their 20s.

Well, you couldn't. But as a result of the world-wide gay conspiracy trying to facilitate the Gay Agenda (TM) you now can. I think forced gaydoption was something like number 7 on the Gay Agenda (TM), I would have to check.

MrP

The Black Oil · 14-06-2015 9:29pm

Gintonious wrote: »

http://www.buzzfeed.com/robstott/this-couple-is-vowing-to-get-divorced-if-marriage?bffb&utm_term=4ldqpgp#.byXXk6Ve2

Meanwhile in Australia, some idiot has said he and his wife of 10 years, will divorce if Gay marriage is put though.

Divorce...remind me again of the stance the church had on this a few years ago?

Here's a letter a gay dad wrote in response.

Dear Mr. and Mrs. Jensen,

I was sad to hear of your decision to divorce should same sex marriage become legal in Australia. It is indeed distressing that you would throw something away so cavalierly that others have worked so hard to try to achieve.

I kind of get it. You had something that you felt held you above others, and made you feel special and a bit elite. That really was not the case. Here in the US they allow convicted murderers to marry from prison, even ones who have slaughtered their families like the Menendez brothers. Those who are allowed to marry are not really as holy or special as you seem to regard. In any case, they do seem to be ranked, in your opinion, above the people you don’t want to marry — LGBT people.

~~

You are “quitting” not because of anything having to do with your own marriage or family, but because another family might be given the opportunity for security, honor and growth. Your rationale is not sound, it is not compassionate, nor would anyone on any side of it grow better because of it. Your proposed actions are, in a word … childish.

LGBT couples are not coming together in marriage to spite you. They have no intention of affecting your marriage in any way. They have fought hard for this right, because it is something of great value in their own lives.

Last week, I officiated at the wedding of two beautiful men. The marriage’s meaning was clear to all when the first groom emerged from the wings, being walked down the aisle with his mother. His eyes were brimming with tears. It was evident that this moment was a pinnacle in his life, he was transforming into a further definition of himself and his identity as part of a family.

Whether that family is just he and his spouse, or whether kids will be added, I don’t know. It is none of my business.

Nor is it any of yours.

~~

If you choose to divorce because others might gain what you have valued in your life, you are not making a statement about marriage. You are not making a statement about love. You are not making a statement about family. You are making a statement about your own damaged egos.

And it is time to grow up.

Ouch.

wp_rathead · 14-06-2015 11:05pm

The Black Oil wrote: »

Here's a letter a gay dad wrote in response.

Ouch.

Going Strong · 15-06-2015 8:25am

I see the gay agenda is proceeding quite nicely.

Here's the gay pods being distributed throughout the country, ready to populate the place with gays.

And here's the official cover story.

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/78069/farmers-being-encouraged-to-wrap-their-silage-bales-in-pink-this-summer

Shrap · 15-06-2015 9:48am

Incredibly reductionist article. Prepare for boiling blood. Colm uses measured language here, where I couldn't :mad:
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/vincent-twomey-sentiment-trumped-reason-in-marriage-referendum-1.2249116

15-06-2015 10:10am

Thought that was a WaterfordWhispers article tbh

Shrap · 15-06-2015 10:12am

Deleted User wrote: »

Thought that was a WaterfordWhispers article tbh

It certainly reads like he went out of his way to rewrite history. Not far off satire at all

Equality of marriage and love

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