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Non-Irish voting today

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135

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    #62
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Harold Abundant Percussion wrote: »
    No.
    But equally if a person with a polling card was asked for Id and didn't have an Irish citizenship ID I could have them arrested for fraud and impersonating an iiriah citizen
    unless they were simply mistaken about which elections they could vote in?


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    #63
    ION08
    Registered Users Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭ION08


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Better half said that several non-Irish people at her work voted today. They were under the false impression that after 5 years they could if they were EU citizens. This is totally incorrect.

    Presumably this is a criminal offence. If it was up to me it would be mandatory jail time followed by deportation.

    The security of our electoral system is a joke.

    Hold on a damned second. If sombody that's not an Irish citizen receives a voting card and goes out and votes, why on earth should they be jailed an deported.

    Jail the high proportion of scumbag skanger parasites that infest this country before you jail tax paying oridnary residents that are excercising their vote to bring equality to this country.

    Or at the very least jail those in charge of the administration for being so lax so as to allow a scenario whereby a non citizen can vote.

    Did you ever hear of tackling the root of problem and not the effect?


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    #64
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    expectationlost wrote: »
    what did you write on the original form? did you say you were a citizen or not?

    I filled it out and told the truth. Its up to those that process them decide if i can vote or not.
    Ive a full irish driving licence is that ok?


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    #65
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    stefanovich wrote: »
    The security of our electoral system is a joke.

    Yes sadly it is. I am really not trying to be a smartsass here, but when I first voted in Ireland (as opposed to my native country) I was surprised people can tolerate this.

    - Registries are poorly maintained and as said on this thread foreign nationals are routinely given more voting rights than they should (I came from France 10 years ago and myself as well as several other French friends were all given voting rights for all elections instead of just local and European ones, whereas we clearly stated we were non Irish EU citizens on the form to be added to the register)

    - ID check at the pooling station is poor:
    * I don't know if it is the same everywhere but at my pooling station as long as you have a pooling card they don't ask for any proof of ID - and I have many times received pooling cards for previous occupiers of my appartement which I could have used
    * also the fact that you can use something that is not government issued and has no picture as a proof of ID is crazy to me (a credit card is a good enough proof of ID to let you vote - really?)

    - In my opinion the ID check is done at the wrong time. It should be done at the time you put your ballot in the box rather when they give you the ballot paper (checking that one person only puts one ballot in the box is what is relevant). They way it is currently done, all they can say is that they have given one ballot paper per elector, but there is no way of tracking who actually put what in the box (meaning if I had connections to get a few extra ballot papers I could just show up and put them into the box without anyone knowing I did it).

    I obviously never voted when I was not supposed to, but as a new Irish citizen what I have seen does concern me about the country's voting system (I don't have any motive to attempt fraud, but many people who are involved in politics would).


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    #66
    roverrules
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭roverrules


    Harold Abundant Percussion wrote: »
    No.
    But equally if a person with a polling card was asked for Id and didn't have an Irish citizenship ID I could have them arrested for fraud and impersonating an iiriah citizen

    Surely you mean if they took an oath and you then proved them illicit, there is AFAIK no requirement to produce your passport as a driving licence is accepted as proof of id


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    #67
    ION08
    Registered Users Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭ION08


    Harold Abundant Percussion wrote: »
    No.
    But equally if a person with a polling card was asked for Id and didn't have an Irish citizenship ID I could have them arrested for fraud and impersonating an iiriah citizen

    And how would you be so sure as to whther they intentional impersonated and irish citizen and wilfully committed fraud as opposed to the more likely scenario of not being aware they they couldn't [or rather, shouldn't] vote and simply voting because, you know, they were sent a voting card?

    By that logic you should be jailed if you are given a €50 note by the government and its found out to be a fake when you uknowlingly go to spend it in a shop.

    Jesus, some people lack serious common sense and ability to think rationally.


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    #68
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Because i had a polling card with my name on it. Why else would i vote????
    I think that gives me the right to vote and overrules opinions on boards.ie.

    Having a fake tenner doesnt entitle you to spend it in the local shop.:)


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    #69
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    ION08 wrote: »
    And how would you be so sure as to whther they intentional impersonated and irish citizen and wilfully committed fraud as opposed to the more likely scenario of not being aware they they couldn't [or rather, shouldn't] vote and simply voting because, you know, they were sent a voting card?

    By that logic you should be jailed if you are given a €50 note by the government and its found out to be a fake when you uknowlingly go to spend it in a shop.

    Jesus, some people lack serious common sense and ability to think rationally.

    Maybe if the polling station is in temple bar and someone walks in wearing a leprechaun costume :).


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    #70
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    I filled it out and told the truth. Its up to those that process them decide if i can vote or not.
    Ive a full irish driving licence is that ok?

    the form is here http://www.checktheregister.ie/appforms%5CRFA_English_Form.pdf there is a section on citizenship which i presume was the same 18 years ago, what did you put in it?


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    #71
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Having a fake tenner doesnt entitle you to spend it in the local shop.:)

    It wasnt a fake polling card. :).


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    #72
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    bmwguy wrote: »
    I have 2 votes. One in my hometown and 1 where I live now. 3 miles apart. When I mentioned this to some people 2 others said they also did, local enough to each other too

    Did you (or they) vote twice?


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    #73
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    So are we saying all those people on the news flying home to Ireland from living abroad to vote on the Ref are breaking the law ?


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    #74
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    expectationlost wrote: »
    the form is here http://www.checktheregister.ie/appforms%5CRFA_English_Form.pdf there is a section on citizenship which i presume was the same 18 years ago. what did you put in it?

    I didnt do it online, i filled out the one that i got in the post. What i put down on that form is between me and those that process them. They seem happy so X marks the spot . I posted earlier that i put in the truth, that isnt going to change.

    Thats the form i filled in. Just put it this way, i didnt say i was Irish.


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    #75
    Ludo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,015 ✭✭✭Ludo


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    So are we saying all those people on the news flying home to Ireland from living abroad to vote on the Ref are breaking the law ?

    That does seem to be the case. Haven't seen any evidence that they are allowed to vote. It is fairly clear from the citizens info website though that they are not allowed to vote.


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    #76
    ION08
    Registered Users Posts: 2,525 ✭✭✭ION08


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Having a fake tenner doesnt entitle you to spend it in the local shop.:)

    Hahahaha. Please take a moment to re read what you wrote until you realise your absolute stupidity.

    Are we talking fake voting cards?


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    #77
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Ludo wrote: »
    That does seem to be the case. Haven't seen any evidence that they are allowed to vote. It is fairly clear from the citizens info website though that they are not allowed to vote.

    Given how well covered it has been in the media and the large numbers they have boasted, could that be used to challenge the legality of the whole referendum? (Even if these people all voted in the same way I doubt they could change the actual result as we seem to be heading towards a strong yes majority, but still thousands of illegal votes does seem like a serious issue)


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    #78
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    I didnt know at the time but i could have voted back home up to 5 years after leaving , is there something similar here?


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    #79
    Ludo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,015 ✭✭✭Ludo


    RTE said something about living abroad for less than 18 months is ok to vote and good faith etc.
    Either way...certainly not grounds for appeal.
    It'll be way too bog a majority for it to affect the result.


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    #80
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Ludo wrote: »
    RTE said something about living abroad for less than 18 months is ok to vote and good faith etc.
    Either way...certainly not grounds for appeal.
    It'll be way too bog a majority for it to affect the result.

    Is it not that you are a none Irish resident and not the amount of time ? I.E your address is in the UK for example.


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    #81
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Is it not that you are a none Irish resident and not the amount of time ? I.E your address is in the UK for example.
    being discussed here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=95588729


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    #82
    bmwguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,006 ✭✭✭bmwguy


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Did you (or they) vote twice?

    No, I didn't. Not sure about the others, 1 is very vocal in the yes camp on social media and I think she has a family connection with same sex relationships (gay brother) so she may have. The other guy, not sure. But my point is similar to the non Irish voting, I could have done it, our system does not seem foolproof or anywhere close to it.


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    #83
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    expectationlost wrote: »
    beingg discussed here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=95588729

    Seem's as clear as mud.


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    #84
    JayRoc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Having a fake tenner doesnt entitle you to spend it in the local shop.:)
    I would imagine the point here is that if you passed a hooky tenner KNOWING it was hooky then you should be prosecuted.

    Same with voter fraud: surely common sense makes the distinction between someone who honestly believes they are entitled (and as far as they know the authorites agree since they've been put on the register) to vote, and someone who uses two different polling cards in two different locations??


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    #85
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Harold Abundant Percussion wrote: »
    I've turned away several non Irish registered to vote in other elections.

    OK - how did you tell...?
    I've also had naturalised Irish viote on presentation of a passport.

    As you well know, a passport is not required to be allowed to vote.

    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The polling card in my name gives me the right to vote. No polling card-No vote simples.

    Not true. You need to be on the register to vote, but do not need a polling card, the polling card is merely a convenience to voters and the electoral staff

    Possession of a polling card does not give you the right to vote, e.g. if it was obtained under false pretences.

    Harold Abundant Percussion wrote: »
    No.
    But equally if a person with a polling card was asked for Id and didn't have an Irish citizenship ID I could have them arrested for fraud and impersonating an iiriah citizen

    Again as you should well know, no-one is required to prove their citizenship at the polling station. Most of the acceptable forms of ID don't even have a picture on them, and all of them, except a passport, say nothing at all about the citizenship of the bearer. Even if a voter presents a foreign passport as ID, it doesn't prove they're not also an Irish citizen.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #86
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    OK - how did you tell...?



    As you well know, a passport is not required to be allowed to vote.




    Not true. You need to be on the register to vote, but do not need a polling card, the polling card is merely a convenience to voters and the electoral staff

    Possession of a polling card does not give you the right to vote, e.g. if it was obtained under false pretences.




    Again as you should well know, no-one is required to prove their citizenship at the polling station. Most of the acceptable forms of ID don't even have a picture on them, and all of them, except a passport, say nothing at all about the citizenship of the bearer. Even if a voter presents a foreign passport as ID, it doesn't prove they're not also an Irish citizen.


    A foreign national only allowed vote in certain cases has a letter against their name and cannot vote in a referendum.only citizens can change the constitution.
    If they say they are irish citizens they must prove it by means of naturalisation papers or passport.
    A polling card is nor required but a person must prove their identity to the satisfaction of the presiding officers using approved means.


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    #87
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Harold Abundant Percussion wrote: »
    A foreign national only allowed vote in certain cases has a letter against their name and cannot vote in a referendum.only citizens can change the constitution.

    Yes, I know that, but if they're not registered as an Irish citizen they shouldn't have received a polling card and shouldn't be on the list of valid electors for that poll

    If they say they are irish citizens they must prove it by means of naturalisation papers or passport.

    If someone is recorded on the register as a non-Irish citizen then it is up to them to correct the record if it is inaccurate. That can't be done on the day, no more than an Irish citizen left unrecorded can vote on the day.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #88
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    They may have naturalized since the register was done and still show as non Irish.
    Proof of nationality is sufficient to allow them vote.


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    #89
    neemish
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭neemish


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Better half said that several non-Irish people at her work voted today. They were under the false impression that after 5 years they could if they were EU citizens. This is totally incorrect.

    Presumably this is a criminal offence. If it was up to me it would be mandatory jail time followed by deportation.

    The security of our electoral system is a joke.


    Is there any chance that they are New Irish as opposed to non-Irish. Saw loads of people voting today who have become Irish citizens in the past few years


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    #90
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    A passport is travel documentation not prof of citizenship. It grinds my gears when you apply for something hand up a year out of date passport to be told it's not valid id. No it is valid it's not valid travel documentation. all the data on the passport is still in date, Your date of birth does not change for example.


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    #91
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Harold Abundant Percussion wrote: »
    They may have naturalized since the register was done and still show as non Irish.
    Proof of nationality is sufficient to allow them vote.

    If they are not recorded on the voting register as an Irish citizen, then if they vote in a referendum or presidential election they do so illegally. If you facilitate them in doing so then you are facilitating a crime.

    It doesn't matter whether they are entitled to be registered or not, if they have failed to ensure they are registered then they cannot vote.

    Such gross ignorance of the law from someone claiming to be an election worker is rather worrying.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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