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Getting evicted for boycotting Irish Water - Mod Warnings post #29, 95 & 108

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124

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm assuming the initial registration form from Irish water was addressed to the landlord. This post is passed onto him or to the agent to deal with. Why hasn't a new form been issued with the tenants name on? Or has it? The agent wouldn't let him see the letter when he visited the office.

    Leaving aside the can't pay/won't pay issue, how is someone expected to pay a bill that they have never seen?


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    #93
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    Hi OP, just curious which one of these scenarios is correct. I'm trying to look at this impartially. If the bill came in the landlord's name one of two things happened:

    - You received the registration pack from IW but never registered, which means you basically refused to transfer the utility to your name, breached your lease, and pissed the landlord off as he now has a bill in his name he is not liable for. This should be your debt, not his, and is only in his name because you refused to register. You can protest against these charges all you want, but letting the debt go against your landlord is not right. Have the courage of your convictions and own up to the debt and protest in your own name, not his.

    - OR he never forwarded you on the registration pack, therefore meaning it's his fault that the bill came in his name and not yours. Makes this more a civil matter, not a breach of the lease. You don't have IW chasing you, they're chasing him because he messed up and didn't do what he was supposed to do and forward you on the pack. But in all fairness it's a bill that is for your usage, all questions of legitimacy of the charge aside.

    Either way you need to transfer the utility to your name. For the good of your relationship with the landlord you need to at least pay this bill. For the future bills you can protest the rest as you please as the debt should follow you, not the landlord.


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    #94
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭daheff


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    - You received the registration pack from IW but never registered,
    - OR he never forwarded you on the registration pack,

    Maybe the OP moved in after the registration pack was sent out. maybe the landlord had sent it to the previous tenant who never bothered to register coz they were moving out & never sent it back to the landlord.


    In fairness all round here, the OP signed a lease that said they would pay any water bills if issued on that property. The rights/wrongs of IW isnt really relevant here. Adhering to a signed contract is.


    However OP- I would insist on signing up with IW on your own behalf and not accepting the way the EA is operating. At least that way you get the benefit of the social welfare bribe and not the landlord. Also if the property you live in is a 'flat' type situation, i'd be only paying your share of it...let the other properties deal with their share of it (assuming IW sees it as one property).


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    #95
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Ok guys- please narrow your contributions to the Original Poster's query/quandry- and do not embark on a mad rambling thread about Irish Water. We have one of those already........


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    #96
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    daheff wrote: »
    Maybe the OP moved in after the registration pack was sent out. maybe the landlord had sent it to the previous tenant who never bothered to register coz they were moving out & never sent it back to the landlord.

    Well that would make it even worse! But I don't believe is the scenario from previous posts. Water now is no different than how you treat any utility bill. From now on when you move into a new place you need to include water in the list of utilities you need to transfer into your own name and require meter readings for.

    It would be akin to moving house and not transferring the electricity into your name and justifying it by saying you're not a fan of the ESB (an exaggeration I know! But analogy is correct)


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    #97
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,949 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    Well that would make it even worse! But I don't believe is the scenario from previous posts. Water now is no different than how you treat any utility bill. From now on when you move into a new place you need to include water in the list of utilities you need to transfer into your own name and require meter readings for.

    It would be akin to moving house and not transferring the electricity into your name and justifying it by saying you're not a fan of the ESB (an exaggeration I know! But analogy is correct)

    yup thats the way this one is rocking im afraid


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    #98
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    This whlole scenario doesn't really add up however. the EA is acting strange by not giving you a copy... And the fact that eviction is being mentioned already?...

    There has to be a piece of this puzzle missing...either from OP or EA

    I mentioned that maybe the LL messed up and didn't forward on the registration pack. But if EA got the pack and not the LL, then they messed up and they might just be trying to cover up their own mess. The mailing address on the bill is important and a reason they won't show it to you possibly?


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    #99
    Wheelsonthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Some people will just refuse to accept anything that is said about water and the fact that we need to pay for it. They have gone so far now in the protest that not protesting more might be seen as failure, so they will keep going.

    The fact that people got so annoyed over a €160 annual bill baffled me. No protests for the TV licence, or the USC which is a LOT more. Or many other cuts and taxes they could have protested against but some people just got a bee in their bonnet about this.

    You're taking the concessions that they won though, aren't you?


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    #100
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,949 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    This whlole scenario doesn't really add up however. the EA is acting strange by not giving you a copy... And the fact that eviction is being mentioned already?...

    There has to be a piece of this puzzle missing...either from OP or EA

    I mentioned that maybe the LL messed up and didn't forward on the registration pack. But if EA got the pack and not the LL, then they messed up and they might just be trying to cover up their own mess. The mailing address on the bill is important and a reason they won't show it to you possibly?

    pieces missing alright. more to the story. pain in the a*se of a situation though


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    #101
    dinglebay
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭dinglebay


    daheff wrote: »
    .....
    General taxation already pays for water charges.


    I'm not against paying for water, but I am against setting up overstaffed, overcosted quangos to do the job inefficiently and ineffectively.

    no it doesn't, and never did. Past governments did transfer some tax income to LAs , part of which was to pay for water services, however - it was never enough, and the LAs never spent enough.
    This is why we have such huge levels of leaks, boil water notices etc.


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    #102
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,949 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    dinglebay wrote: »
    no it doesn't, and never did. Past governments did transfer some tax income to LAs , part of which was to pay for water services, however - it was never enough, and the LAs never spent enough.
    This is why we have such huge levels of leaks, boil water notices etc.

    spot on but both of you have good points


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    #103
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    OP, I see a nice payout in your future if you are evicted due to your refusal to pay a bill in the landlords name.


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    #104
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    mikom wrote: »
    OP, I see a nice payout in your future if you are evicted due to your refusal to pay a bill in the landlords name.

    But what if OP never registered? How is that the Landlord's fault?

    The way it stands at the moment I see the landlord in a better position for any payouts, be it for the original bill, a ruling by the PRTB, or small claims. But not by much.


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    #105
    Wheelsonthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    But what if OP never registered? How is that the Landlord's fault?

    The way it stands at the moment I see the landlord in a better position for any payouts, be it for the original bill, a ruling by the PRTB, or small claims. But not by much.

    Bill isn't in OP's name


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    #106
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    Wheelsonthebus wrote: »
    Bill isn't in OP's name

    Okay, so in this scenario:

    I move into your rental property and become your tenant. But I don't transfer the utilities into my name. In next month's round of bills they will all be in your name, despite them being for my usage.

    Do you think I'm due a massive payout in this situation after you insist I transfer the utilities into my name or face eviction?


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    #107
    0ph0rce0
    Registered Users Posts: 3,928 ✭✭✭0ph0rce0


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    But what if OP never registered? How is that the Landlord's fault?

    The way it stands at the moment I see the landlord in a better position for any payouts, be it for the original bill, a ruling by the PRTB, or small claims. But not by much.

    How? The bill never went to the tenant, Obviously to another address, And it doesn't have his name on it either. How could anyone award anything to anyone for that.

    The LL needs to say he doesn't live there IW can send out a pack to the address and the tenant can sign up.

    I can guarantee even the people saying pay up or get out, if someone said here's a bill not in your name you would not pay it.

    Sure he should ring the LL and ask him is there any other bills in his name & address he'd like to pay.


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    #108
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Folks I don't know how many times a mod has to intervene here before you actually pay attention - this is not a general Water Charges discussion thread. This is a very specific issue related to the OP and their specific circumstances. If you can't post in relation to that then don't post at all.

    Any further breaches of this rule will result in sanctions being applied, there will be no more warnings.


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    #109
    Wheelsonthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    Okay, so in this scenario:

    I move into your rental property and become your tenant. But I don't transfer the utilities into my name. In next month's round of bills they will all be in your name, despite them being for my usage.

    Do you think I'm due a massive payout in this situation after you insist I transfer the utilities into my name or face eviction?

    Dont you end your contract with the provider when the lease ends/ when you move out of the property?


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    #110
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    As a tenant you have no right to stand your ground and refuse to pay bills.
    You need to pay any and all bills related to staying in your accommodation and refusing to do so is stupid. Its going to cost you more than 65 to move house.


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    #111
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    Wheelsonthebus wrote: »
    Dont you end your contract with the provider when the lease ends/ when you move out of the property?

    Yes, as long as you provide a last meter reading. But I don't think you can just close a utilities account. I think you need to transfer it to another name...someone correct me if I'm wrong please.


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    #112
    Wheelsonthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    BrokenArrows wrote: »
    As a tenant you have no right to stand your ground and refuse to pay bills.
    You need to pay any and all bills related to staying in your accommodation and refusing to do so is stupid. Its going to cost you more than 65 to move house.

    Bill isn't in the OPs name. Landlord had the facility/recourse to pass on the OPs details to Irish Water and the matter would be over as far as the landlord was concerned. He chose not to do this.

    The Landlord, for some strange reason, decided to register himself for the property.

    Then got a bill in his own name.


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    #113
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    Okay, so in this scenario:

    I move into your rental property and become your tenant. But I don't transfer the utilities into my name. In next month's round of bills they will all be in your name, despite them being for my usage.

    Do you think I'm due a massive payout in this situation after you insist I transfer the utilities into my name or face eviction?

    Works both ways. The landlord would be contacting utility company with final reading, change of name, etc.

    Need OP to clarify what happened to original Irish water registration form.


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    #114
    Wheelsonthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    Yes, as long as you provide a last meter reading. But I don't think you can just close a utilities account. I think you need to transfer it to another name...someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

    I doubt it- I currently live in an apartment. You're telling me that if I moved out and would need the consent of the next tenant in order to end my contract with the ESB? No way.


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    #115
    my friend
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Pay your obligations, problem solved. No drama


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    #116
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    0ph0rce0 wrote: »
    How? The bill never went to the tenant, Obviously to another address, And it doesn't have his name on it either. How could anyone award anything to anyone for that.

    The LL needs to say he doesn't live there IW can send out a pack to the address and the tenant can sign up.

    I can guarantee even the people saying pay up or get out, if someone said here's a bill not in your name you would not pay it.

    Sure he should ring the LL and ask him is there any other bills in his name & address he'd like to pay.

    I agree. My point was probably more targeted to this unique situation with a brand new utility being set up, and the Landlord being in a **** position where he has no ability to force OP to sign up. I definitely concede partially to your point, which is why I said landlord is in a "slightly" better position.


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    #117
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    Wheelsonthebus wrote: »
    I doubt it- I currently live in an apartment. You're telling me that if I moved out and would need the consent of the next tenant in order to end my contract with the ESB? No way.

    Wow, you've obviously never moved apartment and changed utilities so. You need to transfer to another name, otherwise you are closing an account.

    With your logic, if you were a landlord, you would be cutting off the ESB every time you changed tenants and making the next tenant pay reconnection fees (which they wouldn't do).

    You are trusting that the next tenant will take your meter reading as the point of transfer. Good luck with your policy of never trusting another person to do the right thing.


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    #118
    Wheelsonthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    I agree. My point was probably more targeted to this unique situation with a brand new utility being set up, and the Landlord being in a **** position where he has no ability to force OP to sign up. I definitely concede partially to your point, which is why I said landlord is in a "slightly" better position.

    Why does he need to force the OP to sign up?

    He's not liable for the bill, he had the facility to pass the tenants details on to Irish Water which he chose to ignore.

    He made himself liable by registering himself.

    Now's he's freaking out because he got a bill.


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    #119
    Wheelsonthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    Wow, you've obviously never moved apartment and changed utilities so. You need to transfer to another name, otherwise you are closing an account.

    With your logic, if you were a landlord, you would be cutting off the ESB every time you changed tenants and making the next tenant pay reconnection fees (which they wouldn't do).

    You are trusting that the next tenant will take your meter reading as the point of transfer. Good luck with your policy of never trusting another person to do the right thing.

    Taken from the ESB website (apologies for the weird format) :

    When moving out of your home, it is important that you contact us to close your account.Closing your accountContact us with: Your name and account numberThe date you will be moving outThe final meter reading (How to read your meter)Your forwarding addressThe new occupant's name and phone number (or the landlord, solicitor or estate agent's name and number). If these details are not provided, electricity will be disconnected and you will be charged the disconnection fee.We will use this information to issue your final bill.Change of occupancyWe try to avoid disconnecting the electricity supply when there is a simple change of occupancy.That's why we ask that you follow the steps above to agree a transfer meter reading with the new owner, occupant or landlord.

    My point is that once you pass on the details of the next person, your obligation ends. They can hardly keep charging you just because the next person doesn't want to pay/doesnt' consent etc.


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    #120
    Wheelsonthebus
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    OP- as I've stated before in my previous posts, it looks like the Landlord has got mixed up in his gung-ho attempt to get this issue resolved.

    This is taken from the Irish Water website:

    Owners of multiple properties, including Local Authorities, are now invited to confirm their property details with Irish Water. If the property is occupied, landlords can now provide names of their tenants. Irish Water will then engage directly with the occupants and provide them with an opportunity to confirm their details. This will ensure they receive the correct bill and may avail of the Government’s €100 Water Conservation Grant, details of which will be announced by Government later this year.

    Completing this process ensures that landlords can avoid receiving a bill for services they are not using themselves. It will also ensure that the tenants are billed correctly and are eligible for the €100 Water Conservation Grant.

    You need to show that to your letting agency/landlord. He should have passed on your details to IW. Then it becomes a matter between you and Irish Water and he is released from any liability.

    I'd imagine there is still time to do this, there is going to be loads of mistakes with the first bills.

    If they still are taking the heavy handed approach with you then get onto someone like the AAA, but obviously that is your choice.


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    #121
    burkey2k0
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    Wheelsonthebus wrote: »
    Taken from the ESB website (apologies for the weird format) :

    When moving out of your home, it is important that you contact us to close your account.Closing your accountContact us with: Your name and account numberThe date you will be moving outThe final meter reading (How to read your meter)Your forwarding addressThe new occupant's name and phone number (or the landlord, solicitor or estate agent's name and number). If these details are not provided, electricity will be disconnected and you will be charged the disconnection fee.We will use this information to issue your final bill.Change of occupancyWe try to avoid disconnecting the electricity supply when there is a simple change of occupancy.That's why we ask that you follow the steps above to agree a transfer meter reading with the new owner, occupant or landlord.

    My point is that once you pass on the details of the next person, your obligation ends. They can hardly keep charging you just because the next person doesn't want to pay/doesnt' consent etc.

    I totally agree with you. However there is a grey grey area I addressed in my first post here that we don't know the scenario. If LL didn't do what he was supposed to do, or OP didn't register out of protest.

    First scenario is a civil matter, he should only pay if he values his apartment and/or relationship with landlord. In my opinion he has a moral obligation since he was the user of the water. He has no official obligation I don't think.

    Second scenario is he's cutting off his nose to spite his face.


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