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Getting evicted for boycotting Irish Water - Mod Warnings post #29, 95 & 108

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    Also it appears the EA told the OP that they were being evicted. A notice of termination must be in writing and have all the required information. This could easily be overturned by the PRTB as an invalid eviction notice.
    I'm assuming that the nicely worded letters will arrive on the OP's mat as soon as the EA talks to the Landlord, I doubt any EA would issue the notice verbally.

    I read that as the EA saying"You'll be evicted if you don't agree to pay", and until the OP turns up to his rented accommodation to find the locks changed, he hasn't been evicted, he's just been given verbal notice to expect the eviction process to start if he doesn't pay.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Bogger77 wrote: »
    I'm assuming that the nicely worded letters will arrive on the OP's mat as soon as the EA talks to the Landlord, I doubt any EA would issue the notice verbally.

    I read that as the EA saying"You'll be evicted if you don't agree to pay", and until the OP turns up to his rented accommodation to find the locks changed, he hasn't been evicted, he's just been given verbal notice to expect the eviction process to start if he doesn't pay.

    Could be but the OP did say "The agent then said that I have 28 days from tomorrow."

    Notice only starts from when it is received in writing and having all the valid information. As it stands the OP has not been given a valid notice of termination and as others are pointing out the notice may be invalid anyway since the EA/landlord are not following protocol for the IW registration.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Could be but the OP did say "The agent then said that I have 28 days from tomorrow."

    Notice only starts from when it is received in writing and having all the valid information. As it stands the OP has not been given a valid notice of termination and as others are pointing out the notice may be invalid anyway since the EA/landlord are not following protocol for the IW registration.

    I took that to be 28 days to register for IW, or eviction notice would be given.


  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭Wheelsonthebus


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    I totally agree with you. However there is a grey grey area I addressed in my first post here that we don't know the scenario. If LL didn't do what he was supposed to do, or OP didn't register out of protest.

    First scenario is a civil matter, he should only pay if he values his apartment and/or relationship with landlord. In my opinion he has a moral obligation since he was the user of the water. He has no official obligation I don't think.

    Second scenario is he's cutting off his nose to spite his face.

    -Agree with you on the first point, we dont know the full story. The second part of your first point comes in two parts. If the landlord passed on the OPs details then the second issue is irrelevant. It is of no concern to the LL whether the tenant registers as he is no longer liable.

    -I disagree with you on the moral obligation part, but we have been warned not to discuss IW further so I'll leave it there.

    -I would call it taking a stand- against Irish Water, not the Landlord which seems to be at the root of the issue.

    Also agree that the OP should continue to pay rent etc.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    I took that to be 28 days to register for IW, or eviction notice would be given.

    28 days is standard legal notice for breach of terms of the lease. I was inferring, but yes it could mean 28 days to register and pay.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    daoruisce wrote: »

    Today Tuesday 28/04 my estate agent asked me to come into the office with my bank details, a bit odd I know. When in the office the agent took me into a quiet office and asked me about the water charges and if I had signed up yet. I told the agent no, I am against the water charges and am boycotting them.
    daoruisce wrote: »
    The agent showed me a bill the landlord had received from Irish water and was I going to pay it? I asked for a copy of the bill that was in her hand and was told I couldn't have one (it was about 65 euros for 90 days water).
    If the tennant can't have a copy of the bill, I can't see why the tennant should or could pay. Payment details would almost always be on the bill
    daoruisce wrote: »
    The agent then said if I don't pay I would be given notice to quit, I have two months left until my year lease is up and asked if I could stay until then.
    How would the agent know if the bill was paid or not? If the bill was issued in April, given 2 weeks to pay and allowing at least 2 weeks grace for late payments, I'd hardly expect a reminder/late notice to re-issue to the landlord before May.
    There is also the point the op was only made aware of the bill at this meeting. It would be unreasonable to only have a day to pay, especially as it can take 6 days for an electronic payment to clear. ( eg pay tomorrow afternoon, and the funds will not be in the utility account until Tuesday)
    daoruisce wrote: »
    she said no, who was going to pay for the next two months water to which I said nothing "uncomfortable silence", The agent then said that I have 28 days from tomorrow.
    A verbal notice to quit has no legal meaning.
    daoruisce wrote: »

    All the bills are up to date (except Irish water), I have been a very good tenant and asked will I get my deposit back and was told that she will have to have a word with the landlord.
    The deposit is for damage, the fact the agent is implying it might not be repaid smacks of a tactic.

    Overall, the agent not having at least a copy of the bill for the tennant, giving a verbal notice to quit, making an unreasonable demand to pay in a short timeframe, and muddying the waters re deposit smacks of an unprofessional agent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    daheff wrote: »
    but surely providing the tenants details to IW is a breach of the data protection act?


    Also, whats to stop you from making it up that you have rented the property out? IW could be chasing a nonexistant person
    The Data protection commissioner has stated that any landlord is entitled to forward the tenants name and the date of occupancy on to Irish Water as they are entitled to do with other utilities!
    hdowney wrote: »
    here's the rub. the water bill is not in the tenants name. it is in the landlords. that's the first point. the second point is it clearly didn't even go to the tenants address (the house it is supposedly for) since this is the first the tenant knew of it. third point, the agent acting for the landlord is demanding payment of a bill that was in NO WAY addressed to the tenant, by simply telling the tenant you owe X. they will not even allow the tenant a copy of the bill which they are demanding the tenant pay.

    IF they want the tenant to pay for the water consumption used by him in the address they should arrange for Irish water to bill the tenant, in his name and to his address. THEN it is up to the tenant to pay it or not.

    I would not entertain the agent here simply because NOTHING is addressed to me, and they won't even give me a copy of the bill.
    This has nothing to do with paying/not paying water charges, I just wouldn't be paying somebody elses bill (which theoretically this is atm) especially without a copy myself.
    at this stage I would be making a complaint to the PSRA about the behaviour of the property agent. They are basically demanding money with menaces.
    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    But what if OP never registered? How is that the Landlord's fault?

    The way it stands at the moment I see the landlord in a better position for any payouts, be it for the original bill, a ruling by the PRTB, or small claims. But not by much.
    All the landlord has to do is ring or email Irish Water and give them the name of the tenant and when they moved in!

    I am thinking there is some type of scam being perpertrated by either the landlord or the agent in this case. Something like getting all the tenants to pay individual full price bills when the landlord has only registered one household at the property, that would be a nice little earner for a house containing 10-12 flats!


  • Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan




    The deposit is for damage, the fact the agent is implying it might not be repaid smacks of a tactic.

    The deposit is also for unpaid utilities and charges according to Threshold.

    http://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/chartered_surveyors_of_ireland_deposit_guide.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    The deposit is also for unpaid utilities and charges according to Threshold.

    http://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/chartered_surveyors_of_ireland_deposit_guide.pdf

    "If the tenant owes money for utility bills, such as gas or electricity, and the utility bill is in the landlord's name, the landlord may withhold part or all of the deposit to cover these costs. The tenant should always retain a copy of the bills to ensure that payment is applicable to what is being owed."

    Landlord 1, Daoruisce 0


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The deposit is also for unpaid utilities and charges according to Threshold.

    http://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/chartered_surveyors_of_ireland_deposit_guide.pdf
    Threshold really don't have a clue. this is the same crowd who have been telling tenants to overhold if they can't find accommodation when being evicted for whatever reason.

    The utilities like electricity gas broadband phone and now water have no claim on the property nor on any landlord once the bill is in the tenants name(s).

    It would probably breach data protection for a landlord to enquire about a tenants bill and if it was unpaid, it is very likely to be unlawful to use a deposit to pay a debt which you do not own!

    If you were my tenant and owed the gas company €100 and I had €400 deposit belonging to you would you be very happy if I only gave you €300 stating that I had paid your bill for you? No you would not because that bill and debt is yours and yours alone! once my name is not on it then I have no obligation or indeed no right or entitlement to pay it!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭burkey2k0


    burkey2k0 wrote: »
    "If the tenant owes money for utility bills, such as gas or electricity, and the utility bill is in the landlord's name, the landlord may withhold part or all of the deposit to cover these costs. The tenant should always retain a copy of the bills to ensure that payment is applicable to what is being owed."
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Threshold really don't have a clue.

    If you were my tenant and owed the gas company €100 and I had €400 deposit belonging to you would you be very happy if I only gave you €300 stating that I had paid your bill for you? No you would not because that bill and debt is yours and yours alone! once my name is not on it then I have no obligation or indeed no right or entitlement to pay it!

    True, but since debt is in Landlord's name, he's screwed in terms of having to pay, as the Landlord is apparently justified in making him liable for the debt.


  • Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    foggy_lad that guide wasn't written solely by Threshold, they just published it on their website. It is a joint effort from the PRTB, Chartered Surveyors, Threshold and USI. There are plenty of utility bills out there in landlord accounts/names with tenants as a named person - some landlords prefer it that way to allow for no messing with changing of tenants.

    If the OP's lease states that they must pay bills then what is the problem with retaining the deposit to cover it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    foggy_lad that guide wasn't written solely by Threshold, they just published it on their website. It is a joint effort from the PRTB, Chartered Surveyors, Threshold and USI. There are plenty of utility bills out there in landlord accounts/names with tenants as a named person - some landlords prefer it that way to allow for no messing with changing of tenants.

    If the OP's lease states that they must pay bills then what is the problem with retaining the deposit to cover it?
    The landlord is a landlord of his own property not a debt collector for any company that hasn't got it's house in order! it should not be any concern of the landlord whether bills that are in the tenants name(s) are paid or not.


  • Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The landlord is a landlord of his own property not a debt collector for any company that hasn't got it's house in order! it should not be any concern of the landlord whether bills that are in the tenants name(s) are paid or not.

    This bill is not in the OPs name.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,297 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    daoruisce wrote: »
    Good day board members,

    I am new to posting on forums and new to boards.ie however I felt that I had something worthwhile to let the world know.

    Today Tuesday 28/04 my estate agent asked me to come into the office with my bank details, a bit odd I know. When in the office the agent took me into a quiet office and asked me about the water charges and if I had signed up yet. I told the agent no, I am against the water charges and am boycotting them. The agent showed me a bill the landlord had received from Irish water and was I going to pay it? I asked for a copy of the bill that was in her hand and was told I couldn't have one (it was about 65 euros for 90 days water). The agent then said if I don't pay I would be given notice to quit, I have two months left until my year lease is up and asked if I could stay until then. she said no, who was going to pay for the next two months water to which I said nothing "uncomfortable silence", The agent then said that I have 28 days from tomorrow.

    All the bills are up to date (except Irish water), I have been a very good tenant and asked will I get my deposit back and was told that she will have to have a word with the landlord.

    My rent is due in a week, I don't think I will pay it because I don't think i will get my deposit back and even if I do it will be minus the water charge.

    I have gone home, read the lease and it does say "to pay all rates and water charges (if any) relating to the property including any which are imposed after the date of this agreement", however, even after reading that am still shocked that I am being evicted for not paying the water charge.

    you signed a lease that said you must pay all your bills

    and yet you're still shocked you are being evicted for not paying all your bills...


  • Registered Users Posts: 905 ✭✭✭Uno my Uno.


    OP; being evicted for protesting is one way of looking at it. Being evicted for violating the terms of your lease is another.

    Of course the proper way to protest would have been to register but then refuse to pay. Had you done that they may not have had grounds to evict you. They way you have gone about has the added effect of you avoiding liability for the water charge which I'm sure is an unintended bonus for you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,297 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    OP; being evicted for protesting is one way of looking at it. Being evicted for violating the terms of your lease is another.

    Of course the proper way to protest would have been to register but then refuse to pay. Had you done that they may not have had grounds to evict you. They way you have gone about has the added effect of you avoiding liability for the water charge which I'm sure is an unintended bonus for you.

    another unintended consequence of his actions could be losing his deposit for violating the terms of his lease

    so swings and roundabouts


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There was a tenant in my fiancé's house at the registering deadline last October. I sent his form back with a cover note requesting it be re-issued. This was all before the October deadline. She moved out of property in February and the form for her to fill out arrived 2 weeks ago! So even if the OPs landlord done the same, it's not the fault of the tenant if info in their name is not forthcoming.

    I haven't even received my first bill yet and I'm sure the payment date will be at least 14 days after. Bit cheeky of the OPs agent to demand payment without allowing them a copy of bill. If the threats of eviction come to fruition, I would definitely think the tenant would have a case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,313 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    good advice
    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    good point
    Constructive posts only please.

    If you want to say "good ..." repeatedly, just us the thanks button.

    Moderator


  • Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    I haven't read through all of the posts but from what I have seen it seems the OP seems to not mind that he will evicted, that the landlord will take the unpaid water bill from his deposit and that he is willing for a new landlord to include (or offset as he put it) in his rent thereby paying over the odds for a new place. Is that really the mindset of these people who are so dead against Irish water?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    This bill is not in the OPs name.

    THen how is it the concern of the tenant? I have never paid a bill that was in someone elses name. Why has the landlord not called Irish Water and told them he has a tenant in the property? what has he got to be afraid of? It can only be beneficial for him unless he is avoiding things like tax and PRTB fees and maybe he is supposed to be living there himself to satisfy the conditions of a mortgage?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    THen how is it the concern of the tenant?

    Maybe because when the tenant signed the rental agreement they committed "to pay all rates and water charges (if any) relating to the property including any which are imposed after the date of this agreement"?

    Which they are now refusing to do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    THen how is it the concern of the tenant? I have never paid a bill that was in someone elses name. Why has the landlord not called Irish Water and told them he has a tenant in the property? what has he got to be afraid of? It can only be beneficial for him unless he is avoiding things like tax and PRTB fees and maybe he is supposed to be living there himself to satisfy the conditions of a mortgage?

    This technicality will play out for the OP for only so long - he used the water, he lives there, he is liable. He should contact IW and state that he is the occupant and then he can decide what to do as the LL will have no insight into his affairs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    This technicality will play out for the OP for only so long - he used the water, he lives there, he is liable. He should contact IW and state that he is the occupant and then he can decide what to do as the LL will have no insight into his affairs.

    But its easier do nothing. Leave the landlord with the bill and gripe on boards about how the establishment is out to get him.
    I do hope he/she will post in a few weeks complaining about not getting a reference from the LL when looking for a new place.


  • Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    cfuserkildare, tim9002, idbatterim - do not post on this thread again.


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