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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

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Comments

  • #2582
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Right, but it's just something you have to accept when your kicker is an 85% kicker. He's not going to get them all, but he's going to get most. The thing is he's so good at general play it doesn't matter. And very few international kickers are over that sort of percentage.


  • #2583
    TommyOM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    shuffol wrote: »
    The two he missed were to overtake Wales points tally. He knew it and it seemed to affect him.

    It was 50mins into the game. It's not like it was the 78th minute.

    It's a load of nonsense. Shame on Sexton for getting 7/9 kicks instead of 9/9 :rolleyes:


  • #2584
    molloyjh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    .ak wrote: »
    Right, but it's just something you have to accept when your kicker is an 85% kicker. He's not going to get them all, but he's going to get most. The thing is he's so good at general play it doesn't matter. And very few international kickers are over that sort of percentage.

    He was beaten in the accuracy stakes by Farrell and Halfpenney last year. Both of those guys are particularly good place kickers (90%+) so being behind them really isn't the end of the world at all.


  • #2585
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    .ak wrote: »
    Right, but it's just something you have to accept when your kicker is an 85% kicker. He's not going to get them all, but he's going to get most. The thing is he's so good at general play it doesn't matter. And very few international kickers are over that sort of percentage.

    yes, but it doesn't help your nerves!


  • #2586
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    molloyjh wrote: »
    He was beaten in the accuracy stakes by Farrell and Halfpenney last year. Both of those guys are particularly good place kickers (90%+) so being behind them really isn't the end of the world at all.

    Yeah Halfpenny is up there with the best in the world.

    I've already made my views on Farrell known - I think his stats out of context look good, but he rarely takes difficult kicks. Which is good tactics.


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  • #2587
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Riskymove wrote: »
    yes, but it doesn't help your nerves!

    Part of the beauty of the game. If anything was easy it just wouldn't worth watching! ;)


  • #2588
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    molloyjh wrote: »
    That's a serious assumption you're making. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. One of those kicks was one that he'd miss every now and again anyway, 45m out. The other came off the post. The next kick came under the same circumstances + the additional pressure of having missed the previous 2. He got that one. The other 6 he got were pressure kicks as well because every point mattered. Any missed kick could have been the difference in the end.

    The guy is human so if he let the pressure get to him a small bit on that first miss then so be it. As long as it didn't mess him up from there on in it's not really an issue. He backed himself after that and while he missed a tough kick the next time around he didn't miss a third time. He also didn't let either miss affect the rest of his game.

    A bottler (which some have called him) is someone who crumbles under pressure. Johnny simply didn't do that. At all. He may have let pressure get to him very briefly on 1 place kick or he may simply have made a mistake. His kicking % on the day was in and around what you'd expect from him so I'm not sure you can say with any certainty that it was in fact the pressure that caused that miss.

    I think that's all the vast majority of us are saying, not sure why people are arguing so vehemently against such a simple assertion with long winded responses that go into semantics and then bringing up terms like "bottler" which is BS.

    I've already stated that he's consistently able to put some very bad misses behind him and recover. The first kick was a 95% kick in my book, the second one he struck terribly.

    What's the serious assumption btw. That he knew the kicks were to put us into the lead or that it "seemed" to affect him.


  • #2589
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    Sexton is good enough to kick at international level. Not as good as his general play. But good enough, and certainly not weak enough to be a problem, even if he isnt up with the best kickers.
    If you followed this logic, then Jackson or Keatley wouldnt be near the Irish squad, both being inferior to Sexton and borderline international level kickers at best.


    Anyway.

    What is it about Ireland where we only have our standoff taking goal kicks ?
    Other countries have centres, scrumhalves, fullbacks, wings on a regular basis. Even the great Eales was no slouch at it.

    Are we missing a trick here where we are limiting our pool of potential best kicker to only those with 10s on their backs ?


  • #2590
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,997 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Sexton is good enough to kick at international level. Not as good as his general play. But good enough, and certainly not weak enough to be a problem, even if he isnt up with the best kickers.
    If you followed this logic, then Jackson or Keatley wouldnt be near the Irish squad, both being inferior to Sexton and borderline international level kickers at best.


    Anyway.

    What is it about Ireland where we only have our standoff taking goal kicks ?
    Other countries have centres, scrumhalves, fullbacks, wings on a regular basis. Even the great Eales was no slouch at it.

    Are we missing a trick here where we are limiting our pool of potential best kicker to only those with 10s on their backs ?

    I was in single digits in the 80s so not sure and could be completely wrong but what position did Michael Kiernan play? For some reason I have memories of him playing FB?

    He was a goal kicker wasn't he?


  • #2591
    TommyOM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    I have never in my life seen such a reaction to a kicker kicking 7/9 in a game.


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  • #2592
    Otacon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    TommyOM wrote: »
    I have never in my life seen such a reaction to a kicker kicking 7/9 in a game.

    What reaction exactly? I think the vast majority on this thread are being quite measured in their views.


  • #2593
    TommyOM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    The fact that Sexton's kicking is even being discussed. Posters calling him a bottler and having an issue with 'pressure' kicks. Can you not see the over the top reaction to Sexton kicking 7 from 9 instead of 9 from 9? The pages and pages of discussion would not be happening if it was any other player.


  • #2594
    Quint2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    bilston wrote: »
    I was in single digits in the 80s so not sure and could be completely wrong but what position did Michael Kiernan play? For some reason I have memories of him playing FB?

    He was a goal kicker wasn't he?

    He was a centre. No 12. When Campbell retired Paul Dean was the OH and he didnt goal-kick for some reason so Kiernan became the kicker.


  • #2595
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    TommyOM wrote: »
    I have never in my life seen such a reaction to a kicker kicking 7/9 in a game.

    In fairness the debate is reasonable.

    I do think it's a stereotypically Irish debate, but it's a valid query and there's no escaping it.


  • #2596
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    What is it about Ireland where we only have our standoff taking goal kicks ?
    Other countries have centres, scrumhalves, fullbacks, wings on a regular basis. Even the great Eales was no slouch at it.

    Are we missing a trick here where we are limiting our pool of potential best kicker to only those with 10s on their backs ?

    Murray could definitely take on a kicking role if required. The only issue with him kicking would be that we would be unable to keep him in the country if he was a success. He's already the best/second-best 9 in the world, if he adds consistent goalkicking to his arsenal, every club in France would pay through the nose for his signature.


  • #2597
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    Murray could definitely take on a kicking role if required.

    Except he hasn't done it in years. I realise he still practices it but he doesn't take kicks in any games ever - save two conversions in a blowout game against Edinburgh last season. 2 kicks in his entire professional career.

    I don't know what the answer is - if JJ and Keatley are better kickers than Murray (and it stands to reason they probably are) then I wouldn't be letting Murray take kicks either. This is a problem that extends all the way down through the ranks though.


  • #2598
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    bilston wrote: »
    I was in single digits in the 80s so not sure and could be completely wrong but what position did Michael Kiernan play? For some reason I have memories of him playing FB?

    He was a goal kicker wasn't he?

    His uncle Tom was a pretty handy kicker from fullback too albeit a fair while ago now!.

    Simon Mason was a fullback who always kicked when selected - arguably he was only selected because he could kick so well.

    Aside from those I'm struggling to think of any non-outhalf who has consistently kicked when selected for Ireland. That said outside of France where you do seen to get a lot of goal kicking 9's most countries have their outhalf kicking with the odd fullback thrown in for variety.


  • #2599
    TommyOM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    .ak wrote: »
    In fairness the debate is reasonable.

    I do think it's a stereotypically Irish debate, but it's a valid query and there's no escaping it.

    Questioning an outhalfs bottle for kicking 7 from 9 is a valid debate?

    It's silly in the extreme.


  • #2600
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    TommyOM wrote: »
    Questioning an outhalfs bottle for kicking 7 from 9 is a valid debate?

    It's silly in the extreme.

    I don't agree with it, but I can see why some people jump (incorrectly and unsubstantiated imo) to that.


  • #2601
    TommyOM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    .ak wrote: »
    I don't agree with it, but I can see why some people jump (incorrectly and unsubstantiated imo) to that.

    I can see why too.


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  • #2602
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    TommyOM wrote: »
    Questioning an outhalfs bottle for kicking 7 from 9 is a valid debate?

    It's silly in the extreme.

    The issue isn't - and never has been - about Sexton missing two of his nine kicks. The discussion has centered around why he missed the two straight-forward kicks that he did.

    By neglecting to acknowledge the importance and associated pressure of the kicks he missed, you're over-simplifying the discussion to suit yourself.


  • #2603
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    The issue isn't - and never has been - about Sexton missing two of his nine kicks. The discussion has centered around why he missed the two straight-forward kicks that he did.

    The second one wasn't straight-forward, it was on the edge of his range. His range could be better, but that's nothing to do with pressure etc.


  • #2604
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,921 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    TommyOM wrote: »
    Questioning an outhalfs bottle for kicking 7 from 9 is a valid debate?

    It's silly in the extreme.

    i dont think thats really whats at the base of the debate... its more whether sexton is more prone to miss the 'high pressure' kicks than the low pressure kicks...

    which would be completely understandable, if that premise was true.....


  • #2605
    molloyjh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    i dont think thats really whats at the base of the debate... its more whether sexton is more prone to miss the 'high pressure' kicks than the low pressure kicks...

    which would be completely understandable, if that premise was true.....

    Absolutely. And it's not a ridiculous debate to be having really either. But what do we need to ascertain whether the premise is true or not? We'd need to see evidence of a consistent decrease in return from the tee in high pressure games compared to low pressure games. We've yet to see that, so in the absence of that evidence we can't really say there's an issue.

    People can and will point to individual kicks within games but if others can point to individual kicks in other games that were either missed from similar positions or slotted in high pressure situations I don't think those individual kicks really prove anything. Is there really a pattern there or is it just that he misses kicks from time to time, some of them in high pressure situations and others in low pressure situations?


  • #2606
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fn1qyoDzOQ


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsSbOT_O2nU


  • #2607
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    Can't find a clip of it but he stuck over a beauty against Australia in November when the scores were level.


  • #2608
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    total former wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fn1qyoDzOQ


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsSbOT_O2nU

    I said it a few pages back I've never noticed him ever having an issue for Leinster.


  • #2609
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Absolutely. And it's not a ridiculous debate to be having really either. But what do we need to ascertain whether the premise is true or not? We'd need to see evidence of a consistent decrease in return from the tee in high pressure games compared to low pressure games. We've yet to see that, so in the absence of that evidence we can't really say there's an issue.

    People can and will point to individual kicks within games but if others can point to individual kicks in other games that were either missed from similar positions or slotted in high pressure situations I don't think those individual kicks really prove anything. Is there really a pattern there or is it just that he misses kicks from time to time, some of them in high pressure situations and others in low pressure situations?

    It was a simple observation, there's no need to go all defensive on the issue and demand statistical proof.


  • #2610
    TommyOM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Can someone tell me how a kick 50 minutes into a game is a pressure kick? You'd swear it was the 78th minute and Ireland were trailing Wales by 2pts.

    Also can someone tell me how getting 7/9 kicks is now considered as an issue?


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  • #2611
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,921 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    TommyOM wrote: »
    Can someone tell me how a kick 50 minutes into a game is a pressure kick? You'd swear it was the 78th minute and Ireland were trailing Wales by 2pts.

    Also can someone tell me how getting 7/9 kicks is now considered as an issue?

    ill preface this by saying that i dont agree with the premise, but....

    the kick in the 50th minute was to put up ahead on points difference.... as was the following kick, as was the next one as well

    so each equally pressurised


This discussion has been closed.
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