No one slags off Vladimir... Opposition Leader Shot Dead.

RobertKK · 28-02-2015 02:08PM

Russian state pointing blame at Islamic extremists, or people linked to the Ukrainian conflict.
Putin deeply upset by his murder...yeah we believe that...

Maximus Alexander · 28-02-2015 02:12PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

In fairness, and despite the alarming rise of Putinocracy, Russia has still come a long way since the Communist era. Thirty years ago we would never have heard of such a murder, unless from a defector, there would be no such thing as an opposition leader.

And now there is no such thing as an opposition leader. That's the point.

Gringo180 · 28-02-2015 03:18PM

spaceHopper wrote: »

You made a statement that was wrong Russia started at least two wars

Let's take Russia invading Afghanistan that led to the taliban and left the country in a mess, perfect for bin Laden. Between the us and Russia there is wrong on both sides but come on anybody who crosses Putin ends up dead, it's not the tooth fairy doing it.

Hold on a minute, your hardly blaming the Russians on Bin Laden are you? Don't forget who armed him and sent him to Afghanistan in the first place

Alexis Sanchez · 28-02-2015 03:29PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Hold on a minute, your hardly blaming the Russians on Bin Laden are you? Don't forget who armed him and sent him to Afghanistan in the first place

They wouldn't have armed him if the Soviets didn't invade Afghanistan in the first place.

Gringo180 · 28-02-2015 03:42PM

Alexis Sanchez wrote: »

They wouldn't have armed him if the Soviets didn't invade Afghanistan in the first place.

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan so they could rule them by proxy, exactly what the U.S has done and is trying to do all over the middle east.

As I have said I am no fan of Putin but he is nowhere as near as bad as the likes of Bush, Blair, or Nethanyahu, yet the mainstream western don't slate these 3 as much as Putin.

I would have Putin on the same level as Obama who is perhaps the most lawless president the U.S have ever had.

Eugene Norman · 28-02-2015 03:47PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Okay I accept that. But lets get back to the hypocrisy of it all. Western powers are in outrage as Russia annexes part of Ukraine, meanwhile a few thousand miles away the state of Israel continue to annex and illegally build on another peoples land, with wait for it, the support of the same people who are in outcry at the Russians. It just doesn't make sense to me

I for one am opposed to both. You could turn that argument around and ask why israeli invasions of other people's lands gets such antipathy from people ok with Russia.

Eugene Norman · 28-02-2015 03:48PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan so they could rule them by proxy, exactly what the U.S has done and is trying to do all over the middle east.

As I have said I am no fan of Putin but he is nowhere as near as bad as the likes of Bush, Blair, or Nethanyahu, yet the mainstream western don't slate these 3 as much as Putin.

I would have Putin on the same level as Obama who is perhaps the most lawless president the U.S have ever had.

Obama is shooting opposition leaders now?

You are right that the US is a bully externally. Internally some kind of rule of law exists.

Gringo180 · 28-02-2015 03:49PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I for one am opposed to both. You could turn that argument around and ask why israeli invasions of other people's lands gets such antipathy from people ok with Russia.

I would think because the Russians don't massacre 1000s of innocent civilians in the process.

jackdempsey1 · 28-02-2015 03:50PM

love Putin

Gringo180 · 28-02-2015 04:00PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Obama is shooting opposition leaders now?

No but he has violated and thrashed the 4th amendment of the American constitution by illegally spying and gathering online data of 100s of millions of innocent Americans and also spying in on almost everybody on the planet.

pueblo · 28-02-2015 04:13PM

and it couldn't possibly have been the CIA...

B_Wayne · 28-02-2015 04:26PM

pueblo wrote: »

and it couldn't possibly have been the CIA...

Ah the false flag folk have arrived..

Gatling · 28-02-2015 04:30PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Hold on a minute, your hardly blaming the Russians on Bin Laden are you? Don't forget who armed him and sent him to Afghanistan in the first place

That's not true for a Start .

Bin Laden certainly wasn't trained or armed by any part of the US armed services

28-02-2015 04:31PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

I would think because the Russians don't massacre 1000s of innocent civilians in the process.

Chechnya and Afghanistan!!??

Aidric · 28-02-2015 04:34PM

Sickening needless murder. I'm not going to rush in and blame Putin, however, as I'm finding it hard to read an angle on this.

Nemtsov, whilst a critic of Putin, didn't enjoy huge support so I'm finding it hard to see why Putin would wipe him out and bring more heat on the Kremlin.

Shurimgreat · 28-02-2015 04:48PM

What is most alarming about these killings and persecution of the opposition in Russia is the general public by and large couldn't give a sh*t. As long as Putin holds the country together the people are happy and if the opposition suffers, who cares. I suppose they have learned not to ask difficult questions. The country really has retreated to the bad old days where you kept your mouth shut.

Interesting to see Putin fans out this morning such as Egginacup to defend him to the hilt. I wonder what he'd have to do before they'd turn on him.

Putin has powerful friends and I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of them wanted this critic bumped off because of this in particular.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/10581829/Sochi-Olympics-Nothing-but-a-monstrous-scam-says-Kremlin-critic.html

Its also funny to see how the left in Ireland and elsewhere love Putin, and yet income inequality in Russia is the worst in the world. I guess the further left someone goes, the nearer to far right capitalists they actually become!

And the statistics paint a disturbing portrait of Putin's Russia. In a report last year, the financial-services company Credit Suisse labelled wealth inequality in Russia the highest in the world, with the exception of Caribbean islands with resident billionaires.

"Worldwide, billionaires collectively account for 1 – 2 per cent of total household wealth; in Russia today 110 billionaires own 35 per cent of all wealth," the Swiss company reported.

Compare this with the situation in some of Russia's neglected regions, such as the southern republic of Kalmykia, where average salaries are £300 a month, around twice as low as in the capital, Moscow.

The problem of wealth inequality pales, however, when compared to Russia's apocalyptic HIV infection rates. An estimated 1.3 million people are estimated to be living with HIV in the country, the highest number in the world outside Africa and India.

In one Russian region, the South Urals, health officials reported last year that 11 per cent of all pregnant women were testing HIV positive.

The World Bank estimates that Russia will need to spend at least £1.5 billion a year to stem the rapid rise in HIV infections. However, in 2013, the Kremlin allocated just £360 million on HIV treatment and testing. That's around 80 times less than Mr Putin has lavished on the Sochi Olympics

seamus · 28-02-2015 04:51PM

Aidric wrote: »

Sickening needless murder. I'm not going to rush in and blame Putin, however, as I'm finding it hard to read an angle on this.

Nemtsov, whilst a critic of Putin, didn't enjoy huge support so I'm finding it hard to see why Putin would wipe him out and bring more heat on the Kremlin.

Doesn't necessarily have to be Putin directly involved. Countries suffering poor economic conditions often become highly nationalistic, as politicians are great at blaming external issues and other countries for their woes.

Coupled with strongly pro-Putin propaganda flying around 24x7, it means the only thing that comes out of Russia which probably isn't bull**** are the 80%+ approval ratings enjoyed by Putin.

Thus, those in opposition are not only at risk from Putin, but also from highly nationalist and pro-Putin fringe groups who are so close to deifying him that they believe anyone opposing him should be killed.

He already has an effective dictatorship, the only thing he now requires is an "emergency" to get the state to install him as the permanent head of state in order to keep the country "stable" while it deals with this "emergency". The UN or US intervening in Ukraine would probably be good enough.

Nodin · 28-02-2015 04:53PM

Aidric wrote: »

Sickening needless murder. I'm not going to rush in and blame Putin, however, as I'm finding it hard to read an angle on this.

Nemtsov, whilst a critic of Putin, didn't enjoy huge support so I'm finding it hard to see why Putin would wipe him out and bring more heat on the Kremlin.

The phemonena of 'working towards the Fuhrer' may be responsible, in that supporters presume it's what Vlad would want, and they do it on their own initiative.

Shurimgreat · 28-02-2015 04:54PM

It's possible that Putin didn't order the killing. It's more probable a friend who wanted to impress him did however. That I imagine is how it worked in the past. That said its hard to dispute he's had a direct hand in a number of these murders.

pueblo · 28-02-2015 04:59PM

B_Wayne wrote: »

Ah the false flag folk have arrived..

I'm not a 'false flag folkster(?)' it just seems too clumsy a move even for Putin...

So you would completely rule out the possibility that this was done to help (further) discredit Putin?

Eugene Norman · 28-02-2015 04:59PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

I would think because the Russians don't massacre 1000s of innocent civilians in the process.

Oh I don't think that would stop the adulation. he could kill millions.

Gatling · 28-02-2015 05:00PM

Case solved

He was a sacrificial lamb killed by other opposition members to create a martyr (not a marty)

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/world/europe/russian-authorities-say-fellow-opposition-members-may-have-killed-boris-nemtsov.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=fb-nytimes&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&smtyp=aut&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&_r=0&referrer=

Eugene Norman · 28-02-2015 05:02PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

What is most alarming about these killings and persecution of the opposition in Russia is the general public by and large couldn't give a sh*t. As long as Putin holds the country together the people are happy and if the opposition suffers, who cares. I suppose they have learned not to ask difficult questions. The country really has retreated to the bad old days where you kept your mouth shut.

Interesting to see Putin fans out this morning such as Egginacup to defend him to the hilt. I wonder what he'd have to do before they'd turn on him.

Putin has powerful friends and I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of them wanted this critic bumped off because of this in particular.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/10581829/Sochi-Olympics-Nothing-but-a-monstrous-scam-says-Kremlin-critic.html

Its also funny to see how the left in Ireland and elsewhere love Putin, and yet income inequality in Russia is the worst in the world. I guess the further left someone goes, the nearer to far right capitalists they actually become!

The adulation for putin often comes from the nationalist right. Putin is seen as a strong nationalist leader unswayed by "cultural Marxism"

pueblo · 28-02-2015 05:02PM

Gatling wrote: »

Case solved

He was a sacrificial lamb killed by other opposition members to create a marty

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/world/europe/russian-authorities-say-fellow-opposition-members-may-have-killed-boris-nemtsov.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=fb-nytimes&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&smtyp=aut&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&_r=0&referrer=

Like a Marty Whelan?

28-02-2015 05:03PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's sad really when you think about it. Russia was on a trajectory under Gorbachov and even Yeltsin to become a major, normal, open, friendly, progressive country.

It has (or had as many people are now leaving) loads of technical expertise, loads of potential to harness a combination of things like energy reserves, massively complex aviation and aerospace skills, some of the world's best scientists and engineers in many areas.

Yeltsin making a complete balls of the economy was rather unfortunate. Economically Putin was something of a stabilising factor in his first two terms; had he retired from public life after that, he'd probably be regarded today funnily enough as the man who rescued Russia! Alas, his ego and thirst for power proved far too great for that.

Aidric · 28-02-2015 05:03PM

seamus wrote: »

Thus, those in opposition are not only at risk from Putin, but also from highly nationalist and pro-Putin fringe groups who are so close to deifying him that they believe anyone opposing him should be killed.

Nodin wrote: »

The phemonena of 'working towards the Fuhrer' may be responsible, in that supporters presume it's what Vlad would want, and they do it on their own initiative.

Of course this is a possibility but as with most stories Russia related these days there are so many angles it's hard to form a concrete line.

I'm just struggling to see an upside for Putin from this.

Eugene Norman · 28-02-2015 05:06PM

Aidric wrote: »

Of course this is a possibility but as with most stories Russia related these days there are so many angles it's hard to form a concrete line.

I'm just struggling to see an upside for Putin from this.

What's the downside?

Shurimgreat · 28-02-2015 05:14PM

Killings like this generally happen in very corrupt countries where people need a corrupt leader to stay in control as long as possible.

Too many oligarchs have got rich and continue to do so under Putin, that they wouldn't actually let him step down even if he wanted to, not that he wants to.

Corruption and killings of opposition members go hand in hand. Ultimately Putin is to blame.

Shurimgreat · 28-02-2015 05:17PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

What's the downside?

None. His most strident and eloquent critic has been bumped off. Nothing to touch those 80% approval ratings now. The Russian people who live in an information vacuam around such things as the cost of Sochi will go on believing Putin is great. And he has protected the country from such evils as democracy, free speech, political pluralism and other nasty concepts prevalent in the "weak" west.

Precious flower · 28-02-2015 05:20PM

Can't really see how this is the work of Vladimir Putin. Maybe it is but a shooting seems a messy way to get someone out of the way. Too much media attention and coverage for something like that unless he's making a statement and doesn't care. I feel though that he'd have more intricate, stealthy ways to deal with opposition rather than shooting them right out where a follow up investigation and arrests would be demanded.

No one slags off Vladimir... Opposition Leader Shot Dead.

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