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No one slags off Vladimir... Opposition Leader Shot Dead.

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    #182
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mulbot wrote: »
    would you consider any "western leaders" a bolox? just curious

    Bush Snr, Jnr, Reagan, Blair, off the top of me head.


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    #183
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Lets look at this rationally, Putin isn't Yeltsin, he's not nice but he's not stupid in the slightest and most things he does make sense when viewed from his and his cliques self-interest from an internal Russian viewpoint.
    I can believe Putin or his close associates were involved in the Moscow apartment bombing for example, this doesn't make sense though.

    He wasn't a threat to his power or popularity, in fact he was probably useful as he showed that there was an active but unpopular opposition.

    If it was the state apparatus why would it be done in a manner so public, it would be much easier to have killed him or removed from the game that wouldn't cause half as much stink, I'm sure all the KGB's expertise at covert assassination didn't vanish when they turned into the FSB.

    Nemtsov came up under Yeltsin and was a free marketer during that chaos and asset stripping, he would have at least some dirt on him.

    In all likelyhood he was shot by a extreme nationalist for his views and involvement in the Ukraine.

    Whats ironic is that if he had got into power he would have been despised by the left wing posters on here that are laying into Putin (well the economically left ones anyway)


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    #184
    JacquesDeLad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 969 ✭✭✭JacquesDeLad


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Lets look at this rationally..

    Is often an intro to an irrational statement.

    I'm going to repeat something but the truth is always true.

    18 months ago Vladimir Putin was trying to create a Eurasian trading block to rival the EU.

    I don't need to list how badly things have tunred around since then but to go from that grand plan to where Russia is now in 18 months is not the work of a great strategist.

    Shooting a politician in the street is entirely in keeping with the kind of badly thought out reactionary aggression that has Russia in the mess it's in now.


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    #185
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Egginacup wrote: »
    No, I WASN'T hoping the entire Georgian population were crushed. Those are your words, not mine. Let's get our facts right now before we make baseless statements the like of which you have just thoughtlessly spat out.

    Here is what you said.

    Putin crushed them in about 6 hours and left it at that. I would have flattened Georgia for that crime of western stoked aggression, hanged shakaashvili and called on the UN to sanction everyone who played a part in the attack.


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    #186
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    Is often an intro to an irrational statement.

    I'm going to repeat something but the truth is always true.

    18 months ago Vladimir Putin was trying to create a Eurasian trading block to rival the EU.

    I don't need to list how badly things have tunred around since then but to go from that grand plan to where Russia is now in 18 months is not the work of a great strategist.

    Shooting a politician in the street is entirely in keeping with the kind of badly thought out reactionary aggression that has Russia in the mess it's in now.

    Bullsh*t, your letting your dislike of Putin (and there is a lot of reasons not to like him) to lead you to inadequate comparisons.
    I can list a bunch of reasons why it doesn't make sense that its him, what your doing is listing his foreign policy failures.

    Look at Obama, who predict this time in his second term that the middle east would be in a far worse situation than should have been expected, do you consider Obama to be irrational because of this.
    In the Ukraine Putin attempted to repeat a strategy that worked for him very succesfully a couple of years ago (Georgia) its failed this time but that failure doesn't make him an idiot.
    The potential collapse of the Russian economy due to falling oil prices is another thing that would have been very hard to predict, the Saudi's with their aging changing leadership and their variable responses to perceived threats.

    I don't think Putin is an amazing genius but he's smart, skilled at political games and ruthless (I believe if it was advantageous to have him killed this way he would have), Russia isn't (yet) a dictatorship and he manages to maintain an extremely high popularity in a society thats not operating in a closed system like china and so on.

    Answer me this, if Putin was directly involved why kill him in a way thats guaranteed to create a martyr, he came up through the KGB and FSB even if you think he's a fool why would he forget everything about eliminating threats discretely.


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    #187
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    And you buy this nonsense?

    What the west wanted was Assad to hand over power and step away. He and his father have been in power 40 years, so nothing wrong with him stepping down, and he could easily have. No major problem with Jihadists in Syria at the time.

    Instead he hesitates, starts killing protesters and deliberately manufactures ISIS so he has a terrorist cause to fight against.

    He's evil beyond belief and you love him. Take a bow my friend. You can twist it anyway you want, but you are a fan boy of two very nasty dictators. Must make you proud eh?

    Ah the old realpolitik argument. Henry Kissinger would love you wouldn't he. Mass murdering tyrant somewhere? No problem, lets support him, hey lets even arm him with chemical weapons and the like. Yep he'd really like you.

    As for Assad its been clearly demonstrated he manufactured and supported the rise of ISIS.
    Why don't the west be at least consistent in there diplomacy and also call for the House of Saud to give up power in Riyadh? They are every bit if not more guilty in fuelling and funding Islamic fundamentalism is the region and beyond.


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    #188
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    Why don't the west be at least consistent in there diplomacy and also call for the House of Saud to give up power in Riyadh? They are every bit if not more guilty in fuelling and funding Islamic fundamentalism is the region and beyond.

    Because Syria is by and large a secular nation with strong traditions of secularism, eg. relative equality between men and women, and so on. Those traditions could have been built on. Instead now a third of it is controlled by jihadists who implement Sharia Law to the letter. This kind of situation could have been avoided if Assad handed over to secular parties in an orderly transtition. Instead he chose the path of violent suppression and look how its ended up.

    Saudi Arabia has zero tradition of secularism. If the House of Saud falls what will replace it will probably be worse in terms of religious extremism. The quest to control Mecca would be huge, and also the oil revenues. There would be a massive and bloody civil war if the House of Saud was removed. It's not ideal to have them but we are kind of stuck with them.


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