No one slags off Vladimir... Opposition Leader Shot Dead.

SeanW

I'm surprisede Egginacup hasn't been in to blame a Washington conspiracy.

Though I suppose he/she didn't see this on Russia Today ...

B_Wayne

spaceHopper wrote: »

What about the Afghanistan war, or Chechnya or Georgia or http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring

Or the fact that they've expanded their borders in past twelve months and look to be eager to invade the Ukraine. So much cognitive dissonance for certain folk on here when Russia is involved.

Gatling

Gringo180 wrote: »

Georgia were the aggressors in the South Ossetia war and the media painted it out that it was the Russians, the same with Ukraine and Crimea. The Yanks and Brits should look in the mirror before pointing the fingers at others.

Where did you get that idea .

Russia invaded and annexed Crimea and eastern Ukraine .

explain how they weren't the aggressors in all of this exactly

Mr.Buzz

I'm surprised no-one posted any "In-Russia" meme

Gringo180

spaceHopper wrote: »

What about the Afghanistan war, or Chechnya or Georgia or http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring

What about the Vietnam war, Afghanistan, Iraq part 1 and 2, threatening Iran and North Korea. Why doesn't the US go by the values it says it stands for, they say Russia is lawless but what about the scores of people being held without trial in the likes of Guantanamo Bay, where they illegally torture people, and have the gall to do it in somebody else's country. Why is it okay for them to take the law into there own hands and not anybody else?

Firefox11 wrote: »

Thats why is being flying TU-95's off the UK Coast to remind the west of it's 8000 nuclear warheads sitting in submarines, silos, etc.

Did they go into British airspace?

Gringo180

Gatling wrote: »

Where did you get that idea .

Russia invaded and annexed Crimea and eastern Ukraine .

explain how they weren't the aggressors in all of this exactly

Did they not have a referendum in Crimea?

B_Wayne

Gringo180 wrote: »

Did they not have a referendum in Crimea?

A referendum that is viewed as illegal by the international community. Military surrounding a referendum is rarely viewed as legal.

The Backwards Man

In fairness, and despite the alarming rise of Putinocracy, Russia has still come a long way since the Communist era. Thirty years ago we would never have heard of such a murder, unless from a defector, there would be no such thing as an opposition leader.

Gringo180

B_Wayne wrote: »

A referendum that is viewed as illegal by the international community. Military surrounding a referendum is rarely viewed as legal.

Okay I accept that. But lets get back to the hypocrisy of it all. Western powers are in outrage as Russia annexes part of Ukraine, meanwhile a few thousand miles away the state of Israel continue to annex and illegally build on another peoples land, with wait for it, the support of the same people who are in outcry at the Russians. It just doesn't make sense to me

SpaceTime

It's sad really when you think about it. Russia was on a trajectory under Gorbachov and even Yeltsin to become a major, normal, open, friendly, progressive country.

It has (or had as many people are now leaving) loads of technical expertise, loads of potential to harness a combination of things like energy reserves, massively complex aviation and aerospace skills, some of the world's best scientists and engineers in many areas.

The USSR, despite everything, at least had some ideals around communism and collectivity albeit without any concept of accountability or democracy. What Putin's leading Russia into is something far, far worse. It strikes me as ultra-right wing, socially regressive around many areas of human rights, it has managed to do the complete opposite to communism and accumulated vast state wealth in the hands of a narrow elite.

The USSR in its post-Stalin era anyway was at least rational. They had nuclear weapons and they were able to be negotiated with and seemed to do their utmost to prevent nuclear war by actively pursing a policy that effectively locked the US into a stalemate situation where neither side could ever launch as they were too rational to do so - so we'd a Cold War, which was far preferable to a "hot nuclear war".

The scary thing is that I'm not sure that Putin is either stable or rational and I don't think he's remotely comparable to the USSR leadership, other than his grandiose ideas of Russian empire.

If we end up with some kind of nuclear confrontation between Russia and NATO there are no winners, our natural environment will be destroyed, hundreds of millions of lives will be destroyed, our economic opportunities will be wrecked.

Mutual self-destruction is not somewhere we need to be even remotely looking at.

I'm very concerned that Obama might be replaced by some hot headed Republican and we'll end up with a US-Russian conflict being played out in Europe's back yard AGAIN.

Firefox11

The Backwards Man wrote: »

In fairness, and despite the alarming rise of Putinocracy, Russia has still come a long way since the Communist era. Thirty years ago we would never have heard of such a murder, unless from a defector, there would be no such thing as an opposition leader.

They didn't have the same level of communications back then that available today like the internet/mass media. Very difficult for governments to keep this type of stuff hush hush in today's mass media/communications.

SpaceTime

Firefox11 wrote: »

They didn't have the same level of communications back then that available today like the internet/mass media. Very difficult for governments to keep this type of stuff hush hush in today's mass media/communications.

I think ultimately it's going to be ubiquitous and unstoppable internet access that will bring about change in China too. Despite their best and extremely high tech efforts to block content, they're not able to keep up with the VPNs and IP tunnels and their attempts to block content just gives the people the impression they're covering something up.

The problem in Russia is that Putin will likely use similar technology to the Great Firewall of China to block content and identify and persecute anyone lobbying against him.

You can't put the genie back into the bottle though - the technology is here and it is changing things.

Gatling

Gringo180 wrote: »

Did they not have a referendum in Crimea?

A referendum where russian armed forces decided who could vote including voting
themselves .

Funny how there was supposed to be a Ukrainian referendum 11 years ago seeking the removal of Russian troops and naval forces from Crimea .
But instead Viktor Yanukovich became Vlads new best friend and a billionaire over night .

Odd that

SterlingArcher

I'd say he did have him killed. Why? Because he can, why not?example made, There is no why not. Who is going to stick their nose in his business

Obama was never under any illusion from the Russian "threat". He played his hand well. played it down hoping this Ukraine pro west government on the horizon would go unchallenged.

Russia called, and is restablishing itself as a feared power. Ukraine is a vital position from a military standpoint.

Ukraine having any freedom in the past was a mere misunderstanding. That has been rectified.

United States having a Ukraine situation on its doorstep would be no different. Cuba.

BorneTobyWilde

Russia own most of Earth so you can bitch all you want. No one will take on Russia.
Putin can kill who he wants when he wants.

Brussels Sprout

Gringo180 wrote: »

What about the Vietnam war, Afghanistan, Iraq....

Nice example of the Fallacy of Relative Privation

Firefox11

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Russia own most of Earth so you can bitch all you want. No one will take on Russia.
Putin can kill who he wants when he wants.

Dont be a troll. This is not Youtube comments.

BorneTobyWilde

Firefox11 wrote: »

Dont be a troll. This is not Youtube comments.

http://lakebaikal.eu/images/russia-map.jpg

I'm not trolling. They're too big to touch.
No one would ever try to take Putin out of power. Their military is too
fierce. If anyone was to touch Russia world war 3 would occur.

Baby Jane

How does it own most of earth though?

SpaceTime

I don't think anyone's going to touch Russia, but what may well happen is that Russia itself could just implode as a large % of Russians are not really going to be too comfortable living under an ever-increasingly right wing dictatorship.

Putin could be waltzing himself into a revolution or a coup if his administration goes too far with this stuff.

He's also going to destroy the Russian economy, and it won't be about sanctions it'll be about a brain drain as well-educated Russians just pack their bags and take up jobs in places with human rights and democracy.

BorneTobyWilde

Baby Jane wrote: »

How does it own most of earth though?

They own more of this planet than anyone else. And every few years they grab another bit, just like in Ukraine. They grabbed Crimea .

Einhard

Some people are demanding cast iron proof linking to this murder. They must know that this kind of proof is impossible to provide. Even if Putin wasn't behind it, it would appear to have been a politically motivated hit, and the people who sanction such assassinations don't link leave themselves exposed.

If this was a one off murder, I could go along with the protestations at Putin's culpability. However, this is just the latest in a litany of assassinations or attempted assassinations of Kremlin critics and dissidents. When one looks at the overall picture rather then just individual pixels, it's very hard not to conclude that someone at the highest level of political power in the Kremlin is not somehow involved. And very little happens at that level in Russia without Putin's knowledge.

Baby Jane

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

They own more of this planet than anyone else.

How do you mean? The USSR is gone I thought. Sorry if I'm completely wrong!

Alexis Sanchez

Gringo180 wrote: »

Okay I accept that. But lets get back to the hypocrisy of it all. Western powers are in outrage as Russia annexes part of Ukraine, meanwhile a few thousand miles away the state of Israel continue to annex and illegally build on another peoples land, with wait for it, the support of the same people who are in outcry at the Russians. It just doesn't make sense to me

Let's put it this way, if Israel planned to invade and annex every oil-rich chunk of land in the Arab states, it would get the full backing of the USA. America needs a reasonably priced source of oil to maintain its status as the world's most powerful country, hence the reason why it licks the ass of the House of Saud.

SpaceTime

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

http://lakebaikal.eu/images/russia-map.jpg

I'm not trolling. They're too big to touch.
No one would ever try to take Putin out of power. They're military is too
fierce. If anyone was to touch Russia world war 3 would occur.

Sure, they have a lot of weapons and scary nukes, but they've 143 million people which is declining at a rate of 0.5% per year due to high emigration, high death rates and low birth rates.

That's compared to the EU's 503 million

Their economy is almost entirely based around gas and oil exports and as we can see a flick in the oil markets can put them under huge pressure.

Russia risks ending up just fizzling out and being a weird grumpy place with a large stockpile of old nukes that aren't even being maintained if it's not careful.

Russia's not really a massive economic powerhouse either and it has a declining internal economy, so most of this is based on gas/oil exports rather than economic activity.

That compares to the EU and US massively diversified economies and China's booming manufacturing economy and massively diversifying and growing internal economy.

EU GDP : US$ 18.451 trillion
US GDP : US$ 16.77 trillion
China GDP : US$ 9.24 trillion
Russian GDP US$ 2.097 trillion in 2013 (pre oil sink and sanctions)

Russia risks ending up as a fizzled out ember of itself behaving like a grumpy old man with nukes. Ranting away about the old days...
That fate will be nothing to do with the 'west'. Russia is making its own bed.

Baby Jane

myshirt wrote: »

Putin is the most powerful man in the world.

Is that not Obama?

Mardy Bum

Russia is suffering at the minute economically and the populace is becoming restless. The typical Russian response to such a scenario unsurprisingly ensued. It is a hole.

Right Turn Clyde

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Russia own most of Earth so you can bitch all you want. No one will take on Russia.
Putin can kill who he wants when he wants.

Russia makes up just under 12% of Earth.

spaceHopper

Gringo180 wrote: »

What about the Vietnam war, Afghanistan, Iraq part 1 and 2, threatening Iran and North Korea. Why doesn't the US go by the values it says it stands for, they say Russia is lawless but what about the scores of people being held without trial in the likes of Guantanamo Bay, where they illegally torture people, and have the gall to do it in somebody else's country. Why is it okay for them to take the law into there own hands and not anybody else?



Did they go into British airspace?

You made a statement that was wrong Russia started at least two wars

Let's take Russia invading Afghanistan that led to the taliban and left the country in a mess, perfect for bin Laden. Between the us and Russia there is wrong on both sides but come on anybody who crosses Putin ends up dead, it's not the tooth fairy doing it.

RobertKK

Saudi Arabia are currently at war with Russia and one could argue the US is too and the weapon of choice is oil and gas.
There were reports of very serious disagreements when Russia blocked the bombing of Syria between Russia and Saudi Arabia. Syria's Assad a close ally of Iran, the nemesis for the Saudis.
The Saudis led OPEC to hold oil production at present levels, rather than lowering production to increase oil price.

Oil and gas being so important to Russia, it is an easy way to attack Russia's economy.
It is also argued the Saudis are prepared for low oil prices as it affects Iran too.
Russia cannot be attacked militarily, but Iran can and the Saudis have told Israel they can use their airspace if they want to attack Iran.

So watch the Saudis attack Russia with low oil price, they must have incentivised other OPEC members...