Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

Sociologically significant to me in the coming generations will be the impact on the Catholic faith of participation in Gaelscoileanna. My two eldest children go to the Gaelscoil as it's the closest geographically to us, and both have completed First Communion and First Penance, but if you asked them to say their prayers or go to confession in English they would be unable to do so.

The school has one of the younger Roman-trained priests in charge of administrating the sacraments to them, and he has no Irish, but very good Latin. He is a very nice man, a bit too pious for me, but is unable to perform a religious task as Gaeilge without having a prepared script in front of him. He is unable to have a natural Irish conversation with any of the tuismitheoiri or members of the BOM.

If the only religious participation that a significant proportion of the children being educated is through Beo go Deo, how does that impact on the church's participation in education the future....?

katydid wrote: »

Interesting angle. I'd like to think, however, that Gaelscoileanna would be the first to move away from church control so that those of us who are not RC, or who want a secular school, don't have to choose between Irish and religion. How they got under it in the first place is beyond me, given that most of them were set up as new schools, and had no reason to be in the patronage system in the first place.

Some are officially multi denominational others catholic ethos to differing degrees.

katydid wrote: »

"Catholic" ethos is still a religious ethos, no matter to what degree. Where I live there are two Gaelscoileanna. Both are Roman Catholic. It's not fair that a child and their parents have to choose between being indoctrinated in religion or becoming fluent in our native language.

Well i went to a catholic ethos school and I was not indoctrinated.

I told the priest in leaving cert year that I was unconvinced that Jesus was the son of God. He told me to read John in a friendly way.

We went to mass maybe once a year with the exception of confirmation and I never felt that I should take any religious belief seriously unless I wanted to.

I actually think it's important for children to get a grounding in religion so that they have a base of knowledge to make a decision for themselves.

While I am grateful that I learnt Irish in the home, I wish that I actually had more knowledge of a Christian faith. I have a general knowledge of some of the bible but I really know very little about the catholic beliefs or practices. For instance the rosary is about as familiar to me as praying to Mecca. I was never made believe that catholic beliefs were necessarily right, just that many people did.

So long as children are explained by their parents that religion is wholly up to the individual to choose to adhere or not, I see only benefit from a solid grounding in a practice.

For that reason I'm certainly fine with my children attending a school with some particular Christian ethos.

katydid wrote: »

Yes, you were indoctrinated. You were taught RC doctrine; that is what indoctrination is. It may not have "stuck", but it did happen. It's your belief that children should get a grounding in religion; I share your belief. But that is a personal belief - parents who want their children to have a religious education are free to do so. In private, either by doing it themselves or going to their church and asking the church to do its job. Not by expecting teachers paid for by the state to do it for them, which means excluding those who don't wish a religious education for themselves or their children. And certainly not when it means forcing them to choose between indoctrination and developing a fluency in Irish.

It's all very well for you to be happy with the present situation; it means you don't have to bother doing the education yourself, nor does the RC church. It's hardly fair on others, though, who don't expect the schools to do their job for them.

But I wasn't taught the doctrine.

I was just taught the beatitudes and a few main parts/responses of the mass in order to be confirmed.

Likewise I learnt the confesso the two main creeds and hail Mary/ our father for confession/communion.

I really don't understand the format of the mass, the doctrine which Catholics must believe in or most of the rituals that they should practice.

Hardly indoctrination. Just an introduction to a religion which I never took seriously and when I was 16 and ready to reflect on, decided against and said as much to the school priest.

I don't regret any of the liturgy that I did learn. The beatitudes is one if the most important parts of Christian teaching and of the sermon on the mount.

Likewise I would wholely regret not learning the credo as it is the only clear teaching I got on what fundamental catholic rules are.

I was also never exposed to mumbo jumbo of the praying to different saints or holy days or devotions, yet I think it's nice to get exposed to this and again I wish I knew more about this for academic reasons.

Devotion to Mary is a completely foreign concept to me.

It does no harm so long as children are told not to take it too seriously until they're older.

Again there were no religious in my school and all of the teachers would have been firmly in the pluralist scientific camp and be openly opposed to the church's views on homosexuality for instance.

Well An Foras Pátrúnachta has a total of 62 Gaelscoileanna under it's patronage. The "ethos" breakdown of these are:

• 35 with Catholic Ethos
• 13 schools that are multi-denominational
• 14 schools that are interdenominational

Irish-Medium School with Multidenominational characteristic spirit

Definition:

1. No particular (denominational) religion is taught within the official school timetable as set out by the Department of Education & Skills.

2. The Croí na Scoile (Heart of the School) Programme as composed by the school in collaboration with An Foras Pátrúnachta will be adhered to.

3. The parents have a responsibility to make arrangements for the teaching of denominational religion to their children outside official school time. The Board of Management and the school will be flexible in dealing with all groups and the Board will cater as much as possible for every group outside official school time.

4. The religious groups are taught through Irish only outside official school time. The teaching staff will not have a duty to take on this responsibility.

5. The Board of Management has a duty to uphold, and to be accountable to the patron for upholding, the characteristic spirit of the school which is in accordance with the definition here stated of the multidenominational Irish medium school.

List of Multidenominational Schools under our patronage in Dublin

Gaelscoil Bhaile Brigín, Baile Brigín, Co. Átha Cliath 01-8416036
Gaelscoil Bhrian Bóroimhe, Coill na nÚll, Sord, Co. Átha Cliath 01-8902799
Gaelscoil an Chuilinn, Baile an Tirialaigh, Baile Átha Cliath 15 01-6294100
Gaelscoil Shliabh Rua, Cill Tiarnáin, Baile Átha Cliath. 18 01 2921774
Gaelscoil na Giúise, Teach na Giúise, Baile Átha Cliath 24. 01 552 0998
List of Multidenominational Schools under our patronage in Leinster

Gaelscoil an Bhradáin Fheasa, Droichead Átha, Co. na Mí. 041-9848667
Gaelscoil na Mí, Cill Dhéagláin, Co. na Mí 087-3552878
Gaelscoil Mhic Aodha, Baile Chill Dara, Co. Chill Dara. 045 535588
List of Multidenominational Schools under our patronage in Connaught

Gaelscoil Riabhach, Baile Locha Riach, Co. na Gaillimhe. 091-850638
Gaelscoil Riada, Baile Átha an Rí, Co. na Gaillimhe. 091-847865
Gaelscoil na bhFilí, Gort Inse Guaire, Co. na Gaillimhe. 091-630494
List of Multidenominational Schools under our patronage in Munster

Gaelscoil an Ghoirt Álainn, Corcaigh, Co. Chorcaí 021-4551955
Gaelscoil Chloch na gCoillte, Cloch na gCoillte, Co. Chorcaí. 023-8834882
Gaelscoil Mhúscraí, An Blárna, Co. Chorcaí 021-4516874
Gaelscoil Uí Dhrisceoil, Gleann Maighir, Co. Chorcaí 021-4824288
List of Multidenominational Schools under our patronage in Ulster

Gaelscoil Bhreifne, An Chabháin, Co. an Chabháin 049-4362402

Irish-Medium School with Interdenominational characteristic spirit

1. A school under the patronage of An Foras Pátrúnachta which has an Interdenominational characteristic spirit will function with a shared Catholic and Protestant characteristic spirit. Recognition will be given to the ways in which both religions including the specific Protestant churches have enriched Irish life.

2. Understanding and acceptance of the Catholic and Protestant modes of worship will be promoted.

3. The pupils will be prepared for the sacraments pertaining to them.

4.The school will have a duty to recognise and celebrate tolerance.

5. An interdenominational school has a duty to serve completely these two main Christian traditions and to follow completely the current religious syllabi which are set out by the bishops of the relevant dioceses (or to follow completely the current religious syllabi set out by the bishops of the various faiths in the dioceses). In a case in which only pupils of one religion are enrolled in the school or in the class the policy stated here of the other faiths will be adhered to by giving the pupils an understanding of the other faith.

6. The Board of Management has a duty to uphold, and to be accountable to the patron for upholding, the characteristic spirit of the school which is in accordance with the definition here stated of the interdenominational school.

From what I recall An Foras Pátrúnachta when they are looking to setup a school in area actually seek the opinion of parents in area who would interested in Gaelscoil what sorta "ethos" they want.

The two new Gaelcholáiste been open under the patronage in Dublin for example are multi-denominational:

Coláiste Ghlór na Mara is an all Irish secondary school which will open in Balbriggan, Co. Dublin, in September 2014.

An Foras Pátrúnachta is the patron of the new Gaelcholáiste. The school which has a multidenominational ethos will cater for the great demand for secondary school education through Irish in north Dublin.

Gaelcholáiste an Phiarsaigh is an all Irish secondary school which will open in Loreto Abbey, Dublin 16 in September 2014.

An Foras Pátrúnachta is the patron of the new Gaelcholáiste. The school, which has a multidenominational ethos, will cater for the great demand for secondary school education through Irish in south Dublin.

The registration form as well as the admissions policy are available from the website www.gaelcholaiste.com

katydid wrote: »

That's good to hear. It's just a shame so many are not.

There are very few Gaelchólaiste in general, I recalled looking at stats couple years ago and there were only enough places for about 1/3rd of the 6th class cohort in Gaelscoileanna if they wish to continue their education through Irish.

In general all new gaelscoileanna/gaelchólaistí are been set up under patronage of An Foras Pátrúnachta in comparison for first 30+ years of the movement where the default position of setting up any new school was taken (eg. local parish etc.)

If for example they setup a new school with Catholic ethos it's because the cohort of parents interested in sending their children to said school specifically request it.

katydid wrote: »

No, they should just instruct them to stop promoting religion.

No they would have to withdraw all funding, specifically capitation fees and teacher salaries, after all why should I as an atheist fund a Bearlóirí school with a Church of Ireland ethos let alone one with Catholic one out of my taxes?

If religion is a private matter the schools should either be "nationalised" or turned into private schools (akin to for example Blackrock College, St. Andrew's etc.)

katydid wrote: »

But if they stopped teaching and promoting religion, you wouldn't be doing anything of the sort. The teachers would be getting on with teaching, not indoctrinating of any religion.

No they've have cease paying teachers, given that the schools by and large do not belong to the state, then the owners of the school should pay the salaries of the teachers. Simple solution nationalise all schools and make them the property of the Department of Education.

katydid wrote: »

Sure, the denominations own the buildings, but all the Dept. has to do is to add up the cost of what it has spent on extensions, building maintenance, caretaking and so on over the years, and offer to accept the deeds of the building in lieu....

Unfortunatley property law let alone the constuition doesn't work like that however the state does have the power of "Compulsory Purchase Order" (say if your house happens to be in way of proposed M20 motorway etc.)

Don't forget though if we are nationalising the school system then the likes of "Educate together" and An Foras Pátrúnachta would either have to be abolished or become private schools, after all it's all in the name of equality. Of course the extreme form of that would be to ban Gaelscoileanna, after all who are parents to have an opinion about what language their children should be thought through.