Diesel's days are numbered.

Long Time Lurker · 08-02-2015 10:57PM #1

http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/627c6812-7faf-11e4-adff-00144feabdc0.html

It has begun. The great big myth about diesel being more environmentally friendly is finally being exposed. While less of it is burned per kilometre driven (thus creating leas Co2) it emits far more NOx which in essence makes us all very sick. With recent trends towards diesels in Europe it would seem air quality, especially in large cities, has declined rapidly. Now European politicians are beginning to act with widespread bans on diesels likely to be introduced in certain parts of the continent.

Can't say I'm disappointed myself. Diesel MPG figures have been hugely manipulated by the manufacturers for years.Being sold on their cheaper to run and environmental benefits was just a total falacy it would seem. The reality would now appear to be that its actually far less damaging for the environment to burn a little extra petrol to do the same journey. Fingers crossed our government sees the logic, reduces taxation on petrol and doesn't give in to the (many) diesel lobbyists.

I for one will not lament the coming extinction of the diesel in the family car. Like for like sized turbo petrols are still millennia ahead in power delivery, emissions, weight and most of all noise, despite the claimed advancements of the derv over the past few years.

colm_mcm · 08-02-2015 11:00PM

This was news about 15 years ago

Long Time Lurker · 08-02-2015 11:03PM

colm_mcm wrote: »

This was news about 15 years ago

Its always been known. Its just that now its being accepted. Remember EU regs were essentially driving ( no pun intended) the popularity of derv. It would seem both they and the manufactures have now conceded that the proposed emission controls are simply not achievable.

BreadnBuddha · 08-02-2015 11:10PM

Subscription required to read that article.

In other news, so what?

You think it'll change quickly?

You 'hope' the government will reduce tax on petrol? Would you ever get real.

You might read the FT but those aren't looking like realistic or intelligent expectations to me.

I'll stick with my oul diesel yoke. You can have the new 3 cylinder petrol turbo euro box with a battery and the replacement costs, charging hassles and environmental impacts from producing and recharging them for all I care. If it salves your conscience, have at it.

As long as there's a way to put a suitable fuel in the tank I'll be driving a diesel car first.

Long Time Lurker · 08-02-2015 11:18PM

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Subscription required to read that article.

In other news, so what?

You think it'll change quickly?

You 'hope' the government will reduce tax on petrol? Would you ever get real.

You might read the FT but those aren't looking like realistic or intelligent expectations to me.

I'll stick with my oul diesel yoke. You can have the new 3 cylinder petrol turbo euro box with a battery and the replacement costs, charging hassles and environmental impacts from producing and recharging them for all I care. If it salves your conscience, have at it.

As long as there's a way to put a suitable fuel in the tank I'll be driving a diesel car first.

What about a 2 litre twin turbo petrol. What if the fuel was taxed in such a way that the mpg benefits of diesel were negated. Would you be open to change? Is your love of diesel simply the cost saving? It can't be for any performance advantage over a like for like petrol fueled equivalent! A similar sized petrol out performs a similar size diesel. Are you aware of the potential harm you're doing to yourself and others!

seamusk84 · 08-02-2015 11:18PM

I have always been a petrol man myself. Smooth delivery of power and generally less maintenance.

Also I take that air quality issue seriously. Those diesel fumes can really mess us up. Sure in Paris they are looking for a ban on diesel cars by 2020.....twill happen here too! (Or the motor tax on non commercial diesels will be jacked right up...the old irish solution)

CiniO · 08-02-2015 11:20PM

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

EU regs were essentially driving ( no pun intended) the popularity of derv.

Which EU regs pushed popularity of diesels?

St. Leibowitz · 08-02-2015 11:25PM

I think it will change quickly. Paris is considering banning diesel cars by 2020. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26678-paris-says-non-to-diesel-in-antipollution-push.html#.VNfuUi7JJhA

London is considering increasing the congestion charge for diesels by adding an extra £10. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/11280067/London-will-follow-Paris-and-ban-diesel-cars-campaigners-warn.html

Even if this doesn't happen, as the debate increases, the prospect of buying a car which may become unusable, very expensive to run, but most importantly, unsellable will frighten buyers into steering clear of diesel. This is likely become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Long Time Lurker · 08-02-2015 11:25PM

CiniO wrote: »

Which EU regs pushed popularity of diesels?

Co2 limitations.

http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars/index_en.htm

Which are utter nonsense anyway as makers hide behind stop start systems, manipulation of the vehicles being tested and the overall Co2 count of some brands being hidden by lumping lots of different brands together i.e. Ferrari which hides it's Co2 emissions by being part of the Fiat Group.

Special Circumstances · 08-02-2015 11:26PM

Anyone with any sense knows that diesel is unhealthy (this would appear to rule out green politicians). It has applications but every vehicle in built up places is not it. You can't blame people for taking advantage of the incentives I suppose - if I was worried about resale then I'd have to buy derv even if the sound of the thing starting would take a little off my life every time, never mind the particulates and nox.

BreadnBuddha · 08-02-2015 11:31PM

I don't live in a city, my car isn't particularly fuel efficient and I like driving large engined petrol cars. That said, diesel suits my needs and the EU won't be able to stop everyone from driving diesel cars, not for a very long time. It might not be as easy, but a total halt is many, many years away yet.

Long Time Lurker · 08-02-2015 11:36PM

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I don't live in a city, my car isn't particularly fuel efficient and I like driving large engined petrol cars. That said, diesel suits my needs and the EU won't be able to stop everyone from driving diesel cars, not for a very long time. It might not be as easy, but a total halt is many, many years away yet.

To be honest I think the complete opposite is true. This is being forced and lobbied by the manufacturers as much as anything as they l finally admit they cannot get down to the low emission standard that the EU are demanding with diesel engines. I'd say the change will be sharp and quick. In faintness even our bunch of halfwits managed to influence such a radical shift in buying trends back in 2008 with the motor tax changes.

DanWall · 08-02-2015 11:39PM

Diesels are already becoming more unreliable because of environmental controls, e,g, DP filter needs a good run or has an extra injector to burn off deposits. An EGR valve to recirculate and burn exhaust gas, which occasionally blocks up with carbon, Diesels are now fitted with expensive Dual Mass Flywheels if replacement is required.

Atlantic Dawn · 09-02-2015 12:21AM

Diesel has no business in modern cities, should be banned like smokey coal.

goz83 · 09-02-2015 12:39AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Diesel has no business in modern cities, should be banned like smokey coal.

I dont care how much filtering they do. It's quite obvious when you're behind a diesel car in traffic, especially on a mild/sunny day. Takes the freedom out of driving, as the windows are up all the time and god forbid you were driving a convertible, you'd be black by the time you get through any town, or village with traffic.

Petrol head all the way.......and im in a merc

jimgoose · 09-02-2015 12:44AM

Imagine, the new badass rebel, instead of Clarkson with 5l V8 will be a shaven-headed Chungfellit from Cyaaavan evangelising de Shmoke an' de Booo, laaad!

NIMAN · 09-02-2015 03:50AM

Imagine liking your car sounding like a tractor.

old_aussie · 09-02-2015 03:54AM

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

What about a 2 litre twin turbo petrol. What if the fuel was taxed in such a way that the mpg benefits of diesel were negated. Would you be open to change? Is your love of diesel simply the cost saving? It can't be for any performance advantage over a like for like petrol fueled equivalent! A similar sized petrol out performs a similar size diesel. Are you aware of the potential harm you're doing to yourself and others!

What if, Those two words negate your argument

The J Stands for Jay · 09-02-2015 09:03AM

The worst thing about diesel is the noise. Since 08, Dublin has gotten so noisy with all the tractor engines. It's not right seeing a brand new beemer then it starts up and makes a noise like a Massey 135.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 09-02-2015 09:06AM

No doubt the Irish gubberment will make some sort of revelationary announcement about changes to the motor tax system to take into account the new information on diesel pollution....in 30 years time

C4Kid · 09-02-2015 09:50AM

Recently I took up cycling, wish I had done it before the diesel obsession took over. Imagine it, your doing your best to be somewhat green and healthy. Thanks to circumstances out of your control what do you get?

Poisoned every time a diesel passes you (most cars nowadays) and you are stuck injesting fumes for most of your journey on the road. Maybe I too should just buy diesel and say fu*k you to the earth as well.

Cycling is going to become quite unhealthy in my view in this form.

dieselbug · 09-02-2015 10:03AM

McGaggs wrote: »

The worst thing about diesel is the noise. Since 08, Dublin has gotten so noisy with all the tractor engines. It's not right seeing a brand new beemer then it starts up and makes a noise like a Massey 135.

A Massey Ferguson 135 has a 3 cyl Perkins engine, any new BMW that sounds like this needs to be brought back to where it was bought from and Dublin has always been noisy

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 09-02-2015 10:12AM

NIMAN wrote: »

Imagine liking your car sounding like a tractor.

Some of us don't need to imagine.

mickdw · 09-02-2015 10:17AM

dieselbug wrote: »

A Massey Ferguson 135 has a 3 cyl Perkins engine, any new BMW that sounds like this needs to be brought back to where it was bought from and Dublin has always been noisy

I believe a 135 is a 4 cylinder so similar in that regard to the majority of bmw being sold.
4 cylinder diesel has no place in an executive car no matter how refined.

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 09-02-2015 10:22AM

mickdw wrote: »

I believe a 135 is a 4 cylinder so similar in that regard to the majority of bmw being sold.
4 cylinder diesel has no place in an executive car no matter how refined.

The difference in engine note between a 4-pot (tractor) and 6-pot (much more refined) is tremendous.
I love my tractory diesels so I do. But they have no place in a e60/f10

dieselbug · 09-02-2015 10:37AM

mickdw wrote: »

I believe a 135 is a 4 cylinder so similar in that regard to the majority of bmw being sold.
4 cylinder diesel has no place in an executive car no matter how refined.

No, definitely 3cyl Perkins, trust me I saw enough of them stripped in my youth.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/7/4/743-massey-ferguson-135-engine.html

Markcheese · 09-02-2015 10:55AM

dieselbug wrote: »

No, definitely 3cyl Perkins, trust me I saw enough of them stripped in my youth.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/7/4/743-massey-ferguson-135-engine.html

Keep scrolling down , the site lists the 3 AND 4 cylinder engines that were available in a135
And I've just spotted that the 4 cylinders were petrol engines -

jimgoose · 09-02-2015 10:58AM

Markcheese wrote: »

Keep scrolling down , the site lists the 3 AND 4 cylinder engines that were available in a135

A four-cylinder petrol engine. Only the American models, I'd say.

dieselbug · 09-02-2015 11:10AM

Markcheese wrote: »

Keep scrolling down , the site lists the 3 AND 4 cylinder engines that were available in a135
And I've just spotted that the 4 cylinders were petrol engines -

Yes 3 and 4 cyl gasoline engines, probably for the American market.

Early 35's (predecessor to the 135) had a Standard engine which was a 4cyl diesel engine, had a reputation for being hard to start from cold.

Later 35's moved to the 3cyl, known as the 35 3cyl and the 35x, also 3cyl then came the 135.

JJJJNR · 09-02-2015 12:25PM

history repeating itself, anyone who thinks Diesel fuel economy is hyped up compared to petrol needs their head examined, my own car with 200k miles still does 55mpg plus, so there are huge financial benefits to running and keeping a diesel car for most people, in the long term, it also makes sense from a return on investment to run a diesel for as long as possible.

Turbo petrol cars suffer from the same issues as diesels now. You still need to ensure your oil is proper spec, you still need to warm up your engine so not to damage your turbo or turbos, where is the benefit apart from the subjective which being honest I like hearing the engine on tick over, weird that.

We are being fleeced at every point. This will just be another chance to screw joe public for more money, and get people borrowing from the banks.

Every EU country's car fleet has been given tax breaks to go diesel and now that there is conformity, we have to bank roll Europe again through the replacement of cars that don't need replacing,

Falcon L · 09-02-2015 12:33PM

The UK have already imposed an extra tax on diesel fuel. Petrol is cheaper at the pumps now.

Diesel's days are numbered.

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