Diesel's days are numbered.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Falcon L wrote: »

The UK have already imposed an extra tax on diesel fuel. Petrol is cheaper at the pumps now.

As it has been for quite some time in the UK.

CiniO

JJJJNR wrote: »

Every EU country's car fleet has been given tax breaks to go diesel and now that there is conformity, we have to bank roll Europe again through the replacement of cars that don't need replacing,

Are you sure?
I thought it was Ireland only where tax incentive to buy diesel is so big that dealers don't even stock petrol cars.
It's greatly different in other countries.
I might be wrong, but I think in majority of EU countries, diesel cars are more expensive to buy and more expensive to tax.

dgt

Full rattly diesel or forget it, refined and diesel don't really go hand in hand. I hate the smell of the modern diesel cars, its rancid

Markcheese

JJJJNR wrote: »

history repeating itself, anyone who thinks Diesel fuel economy is hyped up compared to petrol needs their head examined, my own car with 200k miles still does 55mpg plus, so there are huge financial benefits to running and keeping a diesel car for most people, in the long term, it also makes sense from a return on investment to run a diesel for as long as possible.

Turbo petrol cars suffer from the same issues as diesels now. You still need to ensure your oil is proper spec, you still need to warm up your engine so not to damage your turbo or turbos, where is the benefit apart from the subjective which being honest I like hearing the engine on tick over, weird that.

We are being fleeced at every point. This will just be another chance to screw joe public for more money, and get people borrowing from the banks.

Every EU country's car fleet has been given tax breaks to go diesel and now that there is conformity, we have to bank roll Europe again through the replacement of cars that don't need replacing,

I'd have thought that anyone who has a diesel already will be grand, it'll be the newer diesels that struggle to hit new emission standards that are coming that'll be an issue - maybe someone will come up with a newer-better filter in a few years that'll solve the problem -
Taxes may be standardized on petrol and diesel fair enough- new small Diesel engines may get a lot more expensive so putting customers off buying diesel unless they're clocking up serious miles-
I wonder what'll happen with vans and urban delivery vehicles though ?

galwaytt

....I read somewhere, last year, that M-B commented in a trade journal that they don't think they'll be manufacturing any diesel cars in 10 years time.

dieselbug

The biggest threat to the future of diesel cars may be the actual cost of meeting the new emission limits.

Also the cost of maintaining them.

What will be the cost of the complete exhaust treatment system for a car under euro 6 regulations.

I think manufacturers are near the limit where it is uneconomical to build diesel cars that will be compliant.

http://www.rac.co.uk/community/blog/rac-blog/january-2012/euro-6-and-diesel-vehicles.

galwaytt

dieselbug wrote: »

The biggest threat to the future of diesel cars may be the actual cost of meeting the new emission limits.

Also the cost of maintaining them.

What will be the cost of the complete exhaust treatment system for a car under euro 6 regulations.

I think manufacturers are near the limit where it is uneconomical to build diesel cars that will be compliant.

http://www.rac.co.uk/community/blog/rac-blog/january-2012/euro-6-and-diesel-vehicles.

That's it really, it's the money.

In the truck world, a Euro 6 version of a Euro 5 tractor unit from Scania is €11k more expensive. Doesn't do a single mpg better. Also, they are fitted with extra large capacity fuel tanks (= more weight), as they say the fuel quality in Southern Europe is not up to par. So, they put on bigger tanks so it can go from North-South and back to North again on one fill up.

BorneTobyWilde

Can't remember last time I saw a loud rattly smokey diesel. Modern diesel are very refined.
If the engine is eco friendly then why not run it on eco friendly fuel. The fuel used is the problem not the engine. They should be changing the fuel so that it's more suitable , it is 2015 ! About time the fuel makeup was changed .

Cleveland Hot Pocket

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Can't remember last time I saw a loud rattly smokey diesel. Modern diesel are very refined.
If the engine is eco friendly then why not run it on eco friendly fuel. The fuel used is the problem not the engine. They should be changing the fuel so that it's more suitable , it is 2015 ! About time the fuel makeup was changed .

Plenty of them still on the road.
Passed by one such thing of beauty this morning, a 94 Teeeyoootai Carina, 2.0D , straight diesel, beautiful noise off her, was delighted to see a grand car being kept on the roads.

I'd say that in a couple of years time there will be a price premium on used "nearly new" diesels, as the new models will be a lot more expensive given the cost of meeting these stupid euro regulations.

BorneTobyWilde

And how come diesel cars are in such a low tax bracket if they are bad for the environment ? Are we saying it's all falsified readings that the manufacturer put's out there to sell it's product?

BorneTobyWilde

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Plenty of them still on the road.
Passed by one such thing of beauty this morning, a 94 Teeeyoootai Carina, 2.0D , straight diesel, beautiful noise off her, was delighted to see a grand car being kept on the roads.

I'd say that in a couple of years time there will be a price premium on used "nearly new" diesels, as the new models will be a lot more expensive given the cost of meeting these stupid euro regulations.

That Carina would run on 100% biodiesel. Would make it much cleaner than any new modern pertrol or diesel. I can't get my head around fact that Ireland has no biodiesel. We blend a drop in with diesel. We only contaminate the biodiesel doing that.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

And how come diesel cars are in such a low tax bracket if they are bad for the environment ? Are we saying it's all falsified readings that the manufacturer put's out there to sell it's product?

They are low CO2 emitters, which our tax since 2008 has been based on.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

That Carina would run on 100% biodiesel. Would make it much cleaner than any new modern pertrol or diesel. I can't get my head around fact that Ireland has no biodiesel. We blend a drop in with diesel. We only contaminate the biodiesel doing that.

It'd run on most anything flammable, I had a 95 one there meself for a while.
Recycled veg oil, bio diesel, waste motor oil, whatever else.
A lot greener than buying a new car imo.

CiniO

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

And how come diesel cars are in such a low tax bracket if they are bad for the environment ? Are we saying it's all falsified readings that the manufacturer put's out there to sell it's product?

They emit less CO2 than petrol cars (in general) that's why they are in lower tax brackets.
Supposebly lower CO2 emissions should prevent global warming in longer term.

But fact that diesels emit much more poisonous gases right here and right now, where we live, is ignored by tax regime.

JJJJNR

CiniO wrote: »

Are you sure?
I thought it was Ireland only where tax incentive to buy diesel is so big that dealers don't even stock petrol cars.
It's greatly different in other countries.
I might be wrong, but I think in majority of EU countries, diesel cars are more expensive to buy and more expensive to tax.

I mean at the pump, its basic economies of scale though, or it should be, sell more diesel cars and diesel cars become cheaper to buy, now that diesels have been PR spun to be dirty, the incentive will be to get the masses back over to petrol, when we should have been using petrol in the first instance, esp that this little Island here in the middle of the Atlantic with 4 million people has very little impact on global health.. not saying we should have coal or peat stoves as a main combustion method for vehicles.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

JJJJNR wrote: »

I mean at the pump, its basic economies of scale though, or it should be, sell more diesel cars and diesel cars become cheaper to buy, now that diesels have been PR spun to be dirty, the incentive will be to get the masses back over to petrol, when we should have been using petrol in the first instance, esp that this little Island here in the middle of the Atlantic with 4 million people has very little impact on global health.. not saying we should have coal or peat stoves as a main combustion method for vehicles.

I mean, when they sell a v8 pickup every few minutes in the US, does it really matter what Paddy drives to mass?

hi5

Markcheese wrote: »

I wonder what'll happen with vans and urban delivery vehicles though ?

If your registered for VAT you can claim back the 23% VAT on diesel, you can not do that with an equivalent petrol model.

Ford have just started selling the full size Transit van in the US, 2 petrol's and a diesel model. There is no adjustment for tax so diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol, the diesel van is also more expensive to buy than the petrol, so from an economic point of view alone many are having a hard time justifying the diesel, and then you still have the reliability and environment issues after that.

http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/ford-transit-general-discussion/6921-power-stroke-diesel-any-problems-yet.html

aaronjp

The government are making you think that buying a new car is helping the environment. But it is slowly killing you in traffic. I will stick with the older cars that will pass NCT with low emissions. If the government reduced the price of petrol and reduced road tax there would be more cars on the road that are taxed. In the long run they would make more off taxes on fuel.

Kensington

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/627c6812-7faf-11e4-adff-00144feabdc0.html

It has begun. The great big myth about diesel being more environmentally friendly is finally being exposed. While less of it is burned per kilometre driven (thus creating leas Co2) it emits far more NOx which in essence makes us all very sick. With recent trends towards diesels in Europe it would seem air quality, especially in large cities, has declined rapidly. Now European politicians are beginning to act with widespread bans on diesels likely to be introduced in certain parts of the continent.

Can't say I'm disappointed myself. Diesel MPG figures have been hugely manipulated by the manufacturers for years.Being sold on their cheaper to run and environmental benefits was just a total falacy it would seem. The reality would now appear to be that its actually far less damaging for the environment to burn a little extra petrol to do the same journey. Fingers crossed our government sees the logic, reduces taxation on petrol and doesn't give in to the (many) diesel lobbyists.

I for one will not lament the coming extinction of the diesel in the family car. Like for like sized turbo petrols are still millennia ahead in power delivery, emissions, weight and most of all noise, despite the claimed advancements of the derv over the past few years.

Wouldn't be so sure!
While there is no denying diesel has some serious pollution issues, I'm not sure the new petrol technology is quite the saviour its being claimed to be.

The new "direct injection" petrol engines are hitting all the same problems diesel are for starters.

They are noisy (due to much higher operating pressures, smaller displacement engines working harder and inclusion of turbochargers).

The trend to put in a smaller displacement engine with a big turbocharger to maintain the "grunt" pushes all of the power delivery into the turbocharger operating band (same "lag" and "lumpy power" delivery so many criticise diesels for).

There's even some early reports (TUV Nord) suggesting the petrol direct injection system exhibit similar (and in some cases worse!) emissions to diesel (lower CO2 but significant increases in particulate matter due to the nature of direct fuel injection). We may not see the end of particulate filters and prone-to-sticking EGR valves just because diesel is on the decline!

dr.fuzzenstein

As long as there's buses, trucks, boats, heavy plant, generators, trains, tractors, other farm machinery and so on, I'm not too worried. What will they do with the above? Fit 1 liter Eco Boost engines? Nonsense.
And to the usual posters that bleat "My 2 liter turbo petrol!", do you think the governments won't take an interest in those?
You're next for sky high taxes on fuel and motor tax, bans (how about anything over 1.6 liters in cities), etc.. You really think a golden age for petrol will begin? You are very innocent and blue eyed.
Petrol has no reason to exist, diesel has a million.

Special Circumstances

So, in summary, the responses to "diesels are dirty, noisy and unhealthy" are:

"MODERN DIESELS ARE VERY REFINED! WHAT? WHY AM I SHOUTING? WELL... AMMM..."
"Diesel is the bestest, petrol is silly"
and
"lalalalalalalalalalalalala"

BreadnBuddha

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As long as there's buses, trucks, boats, heavy plant, generators, trains, tractors, other farm machinery and so on, I'm not too worried. What will they do with the above? Fit 1 liter Eco Boost engines? Nonsense.
And to the usual posters that bleat "My 2 liter turbo petrol!", do you think the governments won't take an interest in those?
You're next for sky high taxes on fuel and motor tax, bans (how about anything over 1.6 liters in cities), etc.. You really think a golden age for petrol will begin? You are very innocent and blue eyed.
Petrol has no reason to exist, diesel has a million.

I was with you right up to the last sentence...

There's plenty of room for both. Diesel sports bikes? Diesel MX5 and S2000's?

Steady on there boyo.

Special Circumstances

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Diesel sports bikes? Diesel MX5 and S2000's?

Thanks for that! Just threw up a little....

goz83

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As long as there's buses, trucks, boats, heavy plant, generators, trains, tractors, other farm machinery and so on, I'm not too worried. What will they do with the above? Fit 1 liter Eco Boost engines? Nonsense.
And to the usual posters that bleat "My 2 liter turbo petrol!", do you think the governments won't take an interest in those?
You're next for sky high taxes on fuel and motor tax, bans (how about anything over 1.6 liters in cities), etc.. You really think a golden age for petrol will begin? You are very innocent and blue eyed.
Petrol has no reason to exist, diesel has a million.

We are already raped for petrol engines. €710 for a massive 2Litre Jag X Type. Oh and go for the 2.1 auto box and your shafted for €906. €194 extra for a jump of 0.1Ltr is madness!!! It stopped me from getting the x type, as I need an auto box due to an injury. I stops most people from going over 2Ltr and makes the bigger engine uneconical to run, causing massive waste in the area.

And in many cases, it's more eco to run a bigger engine. FE, the 1.8 Zafira would perform better than the piddly 1.6 version under load and get better mpg. I happen to own the piddly version though but that's largely thanks to few 1.8 models being available second hand, due to the Irish mentality of cheeeeep tax :mad:

dr.fuzzenstein

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I was with you right up to the last sentence...

There's plenty of room for both. Diesel sports bikes? Diesel MX5 and S2000's?

Steady on there boyo.

There is such a thing! (Note, he has to shout to be heard over the clatter)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnCrgTzvLkU

And I have seen diesel motorbikes, nothing new there.
As for getting shafted, we're all getting shafted, petrol or diesel. But you're dreaming if you think there isn't room to shaft us all a whole lot more in the future. Until everyone has electric and then we will get shafted for that. Getting shafted has SFA to do with what you drive and everything to do with the state HAVING to shaft us, so investment bankers can throw another billion on the pile. Do you guys REALLY think politicians care about the environment? Or even us? Sorry, but BAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
Once you vote for them and give them your money, they don't care if you're dead in a ditch as long as you paid your taxes while alive and that your kids pay a fat load of inheritance tax.

goz83

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There is such a thing! (Note, he has to shout to be heard over the clatter)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnCrgTzvLkU

And I have seen diesel motorbikes, nothing new there.
As for getting shafted, we're all getting shafted, petrol or diesel. But you're dreaming if you think there isn't room to shaft us all a whole lot more in the future. Until everyone has electric and then we will get shafted for that. Getting shafted has SFA to do with what you drive and everything to do with the state HAVING to shaft us, so investment bankers can throw another billion on the pile. Do you guys REALLY think politicians care about the environment? Or even us? Sorry, but BAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
Once you vote for them and give them your money, they don't care if you're dead in a ditch as long as you paid your taxes while alive and that your kids pay a fat load of inheritance tax.

What a horroble racket. Sounds like the bolts are being unwound as the tractor engine rumbles.

Theres always more shafting to be done. Thats what governments do best. If only they were so creative in running the country/world, we would have colonised Mars years ago.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Diesel Miata?
Yeheees!
Where's cianryan when you need him!

Bpmull

I love the way this thread goes on about how diesel is terrible and will give you cancer replacing them with petrol solves the problem. When the fact is that both are lethal. Diesel does produce slightly more Nox than petrol which is linked to causing cancer. However some tests have shown that when both engine age we will say both are 5 years old at that stage the petrol will produce as much nox or more as the diesel due to wear and the cat not being as efficient. The same increase doesn't apply with the diesel. But let's say even if that wasn't true look at the other emissions.

Petrols produce more co2 emissions which causes global warming. Petrols produce more carbon monoxide which isn't exactly healthy well it will poison you at the right concentration level.

Then the final main emissions hydrocarbons which petrols produce more off now everyone seems to go on about how Nox causes cancer which it does but no one ever mentions hydrocarbons. yet one of the main components in hydrocarbons is benzene which is one of the worst known carcinogenics its the component in cigarettes that causes cancer.

So ultimately diesel produces slightly more Nox when new and that's about it petrol is higher in every other emission bar pm which doesn't really apply with the introduction of dpf etc. so basically IMO both are causing as much damage as each other diesel is certainly no worse. However I do cringe when I see dirty diesel with there dump valves blowing black soot and smoke at you they shouldn't be on the road. But I'm talking about your average modern diesel that isn't smokey.

Tbh petrol vs. diesel is so far down the list of priorities when it comes to the worlds environmental problems its not even funny. So I'm not posting this to argue with people it's just my view on the whole thing after studying several environmental and sustainability modules in college.

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

..... You really think a golden age for petrol will begin? You are very innocent and blue eyed.
Petrol has no reason to exist, diesel has a million.

Diesel exists due to the refining of petrol.

They can both exist together blue eyes.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I viciously fight for whatever fuel the last car I bought takes...it's the best cause it's the one I picked last time.