Diesel's days are numbered.

NIMAN

As soon as they build an electric car that can travel 300 miles on a charge which takes 30mins to do, both petrol and diesel are doomed.

dr.fuzzenstein

I do about 120 km/h a day, so I do need my diesel, because its the cheapest way for me to commute without having to spend a sh*tload of money on a hybrid or electric and can't afford the running costs of a 2 liter petrol, which apparently we should all be driving according of some people on this forum. I also don't have a blind agenda for or against either fuel as some people on either side. If you have your petrol, fine. If you do t like my diesel, oh my god, you poor little diddums, can I get you a cup of cocoa, I will immediately torch my cancer spewing death mobile and buy an M5. Will I win your approval then? Oh, will I? Oh please, please, please! Pffft. My rattly, smokey oil burner is good for another 300k km and the next one for double that again. If anyone feels annoyed at that, good, I was aiming for you.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

NIMAN wrote: »

As soon as they build an electric car that can travel 300 miles on a charge which takes 30mins to do, both petrol and diesel are doomed.

How is electricity generated for the most part.....hummmm let me think?

dr.fuzzenstein

NIMAN wrote: »

As soon as they build an electric car that can travel 300 miles on a charge which takes 30mins to do, both petrol and diesel are doomed.

And as soon as everyone has one, taxes on evil, polluting electricity will go through the fcuking roof. All incentives on electric cars will be dropped, VAT and VRT will apply fully (maybe a little more to make up for the shortfall), motor tax on them will be astronomical, because the governmmet will have to make up the shortfall on fuel duty.
Anyone who doesn't see this coming a million miles away is even more deluded than the petrol brigade thinking diesel will be banned and everyone will get a free 2 liter turbo petrol.

NIMAN

Axl Tight Wallflower wrote: »

How is electricity generated for the most part.....hummmm let me think?

I know how its generated, its just that we won't be putting petrol and diesel into our cars for ever.

dr.fuzzenstein

NIMAN wrote: »

I know how its generated, its just that we won't be putting petrol and diesel into our cars for ever.

The title of the thread is incorrect so. it should be ICE's days are numbered.

NIMAN

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The title of the thread is incorrect so. it should be ICE's days are numbered.

I think the thread was started because diesel looks like its going to be targeted for being dirty (like we didn't know this 20 years ago). That why petrol wasn't included.

But the thread has gone off on a tangent now, and I do think the day of the ICE is coming to an end in the next few decades.

dr.fuzzenstein

Bpmull wrote: »

I love the way this thread goes on about how diesel is terrible and will give you cancer replacing them with petrol solves the problem. When the fact is that both are lethal. Diesel does produce slightly more Nox than petrol which is linked to causing cancer. However some tests have shown that when both engine age we will say both are 5 years old at that stage the petrol will produce as much nox or more as the diesel due to wear and the cat not being as efficient. The same increase doesn't apply with the diesel. But let's say even if that wasn't true look at the other emissions.

Petrols produce more co2 emissions which causes global warming. Petrols produce more carbon monoxide which isn't exactly healthy well it will poison you at the right concentration level.

Then the final main emissions hydrocarbons which petrols produce more off now everyone seems to go on about how Nox causes cancer which it does but no one ever mentions hydrocarbons. yet one of the main components in hydrocarbons is benzene which is one of the worst known carcinogenics its the component in cigarettes that causes cancer.

So ultimately diesel produces slightly more Nox when new and that's about it petrol is higher in every other emission bar pm which doesn't really apply with the introduction of dpf etc. so basically IMO both are causing as much damage as each other diesel is certainly no worse. However I do cringe when I see dirty diesel with there dump valves blowing black soot and smoke at you they shouldn't be on the road. But I'm talking about your average modern diesel that isn't smokey.

Tbh petrol vs. diesel is so far down the list of priorities when it comes to the worlds environmental problems its not even funny. So I'm not posting this to argue with people it's just my view on the whole thing after studying several environmental and sustainability modules in college.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!
ONE post that isn't "Ewww, you drive diesel! I don't like that! Waaaaa! Diesel should be banned! You should drive a 2 liter turbo petrol! They're the greatest thing since sliced sex!"
I also notice that no one thanked the only post that has a bit of sense and intelligence in it. Sorry, no one likes to hear the truth and common sense and no one will thank you for it. They will simply go back to shouting at each other and ignoring everything else. Sadly this is how you will see the world if you have an ounce of brains. You can get by by pretending it's all an episode of South Park. In the end the decisions are being made by who shouts loudest, not by who has the most reasoned, intelligent and well thought out argument.

Yes NIMAN, you're right. But in the end politicians don't give a sh*t if they endorse lead as a great new food additive, as long as there's money and votes in it. In other words, fcuks given by politicians whether we drive petrol or diesel, zero. As long as there's money and votes in it and not necessarily in that order. :pac:

Special Circumstances

Bpmull wrote: »

I love the way this thread goes on about how diesel is terrible and will give you cancer replacing them with petrol solves the problem. When the fact is that both are lethal. Diesel does produce slightly more Nox than petrol which is linked to causing cancer. However some tests have shown that when both engine age we will say both are 5 years old at that stage the petrol will produce as much nox or more as the diesel due to wear and the cat not being as efficient. The same increase doesn't apply with the diesel. But let's say even if that wasn't true look at the other emissions.

Petrols produce more co2 emissions which causes global warming. Petrols produce more carbon monoxide which isn't exactly healthy well it will poison you at the right concentration level.

Then the final main emissions hydrocarbons which petrols produce more off now everyone seems to go on about how Nox causes cancer which it does but no one ever mentions hydrocarbons. yet one of the main components in hydrocarbons is benzene which is one of the worst known carcinogenics its the component in cigarettes that causes cancer.

So ultimately diesel produces slightly more Nox when new and that's about it petrol is higher in every other emission bar pm which doesn't really apply with the introduction of dpf etc. so basically IMO both are causing as much damage as each other diesel is certainly no worse. However I do cringe when I see dirty diesel with there dump valves blowing black soot and smoke at you they shouldn't be on the road. But I'm talking about your average modern diesel that isn't smokey.

Tbh petrol vs. diesel is so far down the list of priorities when it comes to the worlds environmental problems its not even funny. So I'm not posting this to argue with people it's just my view on the whole thing after studying several environmental and sustainability modules in college.

Sketch biys, the fun police are here and they are shutting the fun down.

It's all a laugh boys, centring on the fact that taxing according to CO2 emissions alone is a joke. Diesels are naturally more suited to certain applications - but why skew the market in favour of them (CO2 tax, vrt and levies on the price of petrol)? Let them be used where they have advantages rather than encouraging their use everywhere.

It's like the Irish government paying Tesco to replace conventional lighting with LEDs - if it makes economic sense to do it why subsidise it further? Bring back a level playing field - if the initial high cost of a car with very efficient diesel technology is worth it for the use you will make of it - buy it!


Edit, in case nobody believes that the government would pay Tesco 2M to save Tesco 0.5M annually - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2014/Launch+of+%E2%82%AC70+million+Irish+Energy+Efficiency+Fund.htm

_Kaiser_

You gotta love this forum.. arguing back and forth about what pump they fill up from.

- Ireland has 4 million people. Contrary to what we like to believe we're a tiny insignificant spec on most issues. This includes "global pollution"

- Unless you plan to ban buses, trucks, commercials and trains as well, banning private diesels in Ireland will have a minimal effect

- I don't get this stuff about "tractor engines". My last 4 cars have been diesel and I would never consider them particularly noisy in an urban environment. I quite like the rumble/roar from my current one

- Electric cars will not become mainstream until they have the range of an ICE and cost the same. Also 30 mins to charge is nonsense. Who's gonna sit around a filling station on a long trip for that?
If they ever do become popular - as pointed out above - you can sure the "economic benefits" of running one will disappear overnight with tax hikes and such

- Petrol and diesel both have their respective places, though I'll agree that incentivising everyone to go buy diesels for the morning school run (thank you John Gormley/Eamon Ryan) was ridiculous, but then it was a ploy to kick-start the "motor industry" again - nothing to do with saving the bunny rabbits .. which is why they subsequently hiked the CO2 tax rates anyway after everyone went out and bought 520d's

- If you want to make a real difference to Ireland's transport challenges, improve public transport! But that'll never happen as there's too much money in screwing over the motorist and our planning laws have made it uneconomical to do so outside of Dublin anyway (and even IN Dublin you need a car for any journey that's not a simple A-B)

Personally as the proud owner of a "polluting, noisy, expensive" 3L diesel A6 I plan to hold onto her as long as I can.. or until I can replace her with a similarly specced newer version

mickdw

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You gotta love this forum.. arguing back and forth about what pump they fill up from.

- Ireland has 4 million people. Contrary to what we like to believe we're a tiny insignificant spec on most issues. This includes "global pollution"

- Unless you plan to ban buses, trucks, commercials and trains as well, banning private diesels in Ireland will have a minimal effect

- I don't get this stuff about "tractor engines". My last 4 cars have been diesel and I would never consider them particularly noisy in an urban environment. I quite like the rumble/roar from my current one

- Electric cars will not become mainstream until they have the range of an ICE and cost the same. Also 30 mins to charge is nonsense. Who's gonna sit around a filling station on a long trip for that?
If they ever do become popular - as pointed out above - you can sure the "economic benefits" of running one will disappear overnight with tax hikes and such

- Petrol and diesel both have their respective places, though I'll agree that incentivising everyone to go buy diesels for the morning school run (thank you John Gormley/Eamon Ryan) was ridiculous, but then it was a ploy to kick-start the "motor industry" again - nothing to do with saving the bunny rabbits .. which is why they subsequently hiked the CO2 tax rates anyway after everyone went out and bought 520d's

- If you want to make a real difference to Ireland's transport challenges, improve public transport! But that'll never happen as there's too much money in screwing over the motorist and our planning laws have made it uneconomical to do so outside of Dublin anyway (and even IN Dublin you need a car for any journey that's not a simple A-B)

Personally as the proud owner of a "polluting, noisy, expensive" 3L diesel A6 I plan to hold onto her as long as I can.. or until I can replace her with a similarly specced newer version

Ah but your 6 cylinder diesel is alot different than your average 4 cylinder rattler.

BreadnBuddha

mickdw wrote: »

Ah but your 6 cylinder diesel is alot different than your average 4 cylinder rattler.

Put some 2 stroke and lavender oil in your diesel tank. It will be quiet and everywhere you go baby bunnies and trees will spring from the ground. Prius drivers will follow you just to enjoy the aroma emitting from your 4 cylinders of goodness....

Sorry. Too much lead in my pencil for breakfast. Oh, I say, that's a spiffing little Honda Civic you have but have you seen my 4 shod trotter equipped treehugger friendly mode of transport outside? I'm practicing grabbing your significant other by her mane and mounting her in an admittedly dissimilar fashion, taking inspiration from some lyrically amusing men from the midlands.

Ladies, to finish, George Carlin has the answer....

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Gosh you would swear that petrol drivers were going around emitting V8 ferrari music everywhere they go, most average petrol engines sound terrible too especially when people are reving the nuts off them. 4 pot diesels sound fine. I had a v10 petrol that sounded like a bag of hammers when it was cold too.

Good car will sound good, bad car will sound bad. Average car will sound average

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- I don't get this stuff about "tractor engines". My last 4 cars have been diesel and I would never consider them particularly noisy in an urban environment. I quite like the rumble/roar from my current one

Especially as modern tractors sound a hell of a lot better than most petrol cars on the road.

Saying a car sounds like a never tractor never made sense to me as an insult as I like the sound of tractors.

dieselbug

Ok, for all the diesel lovers out there.

Put a little dab of diesel under each nostril (for better effect), press play and lie back and relax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9O0_G_GduA

Gazzmonkey

Kieran Orange Spouse wrote: »

Especially as modern tractors sound a hell of a lot better than most petrol cars on the road.

Saying a car sounds like a never tractor never made sense to me as an insult as I like the sound of tractors.

Because some tractors run on diesel as some cars do, therefore all diesel cars sound like tractors... apparently.

Some petrols sound good but most sound ****e with that usual ticking noise that makes them sound weak. (like a clockwork car)

Old diesels sound terrible but modern diesels are much quieter and you wont hear anything if the car is well built and the windows are up.

As for petrol performing better!!! in some cases yes, but not long ago I was in a tuned up DC2 and it was still left for dust by a diesel bmw, and a well tuned DC2 is by no means a slow car.

In saying that, I embarrassed quite a few big diesels in my time when I still had the EK4 Jordan. I've only owned 6 cars in my life time, 5 were petrol, one was diesel.

Diesel for big milage / hauling heavy stuff, petrol for racing / fun. that's the way it should be imo.

So many silly comments in this thread I just had to laugh :pac:

dr.fuzzenstein

Axl Tight Wallflower wrote: »

Gosh you would swear that petrol drivers were going around emitting V8 ferrari music everywhere they go, most average petrol engines sound terrible too especially when people are reving the nuts off them. 4 pot diesels sound fine. I had a v10 petrol that sounded like a bag of hammers when it was cold too.

Good car will sound good, bad car will sound bad. Average car will sound average

But! But! Petrol!!! Noooo! How can you say that! ALL diesels are shyite! All petrols are brilliant! We all should be forced by law to drive M5's! Waaaa! I don't like diesels! How dare anyone drive something I don't approve of!

My next diesel will be 20 years old and I'll make sure I turn up the shmoke just to annoy the green and pedril brigade.
There really should be an anti sanctimonious winghebag law, anyone who says "I don't like this" or "this offends me", instant €500 fine.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

But! But! Petrol!!! Noooo! How can you say that! ALL diesels are shyite! All petrols are brilliant! We all should be forced by law to drive M5's! Waaaa! I don't like diesels! How dare anyone drive something I don't approve of!

My next diesel will be 20 years old and I'll make sure I turn up the shmoke just to annoy the green and pedril brigade.
There really should be an anti sanctimonious winghebag law, anyone who says "I don't like this" or "this offends me", instant €500 fine.

Might I suggest a Carina E for this purpose :cool:

Heroditas

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Edit, in case nobody believes that the government would pay Tesco 2M to save Tesco 0.5M annually - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2014/Launch+of+%E2%82%AC70+million+Irish+Energy+Efficiency+Fund.htm

The government didn't pay Tesco to retrofit their lighting, Tesco borrowed the money from the energy efficiency fund at quite a hefty interest rate.
That fund exists to provide finance for ESCO solutions and EPCs (energy performance contracts). The money isn't being given away for free

jimgoose

Just to keep the big pot a' shít stirred here's another tuppence-ha'penny from me...

I remember when diesel was diesel - direct-injection, no heaters/glow plugs, designed to run all day and all night at 1,400 RPM and more torque than God. Then DERVs started showing up, with indirect-injection making them nearly impossible to start (hence the dreaded "heater button, bah!"), no turbochargers and therefore huge weight and no power.

Modern diesels are a Universe away from those dark days, to be quite straight about it. The brother's 2010 520d is a pleasant, powerful affair for a glorified Deutz-Fahr D130A (see what I did there, Dr. Fuzz? That 'un was for you! :pac:) and a mate of mine fetched up at my place a few months back with a 2001 Mercedes S320 CDI and that was as refined as anything short of a six-cylinder petrol Jag.

Now for the bad news. I've been cocking an ear to these here 141/151 1.6 diesel Kias and Hyundais and they're giving me quite a migraine. In the quest for peak carbons we seem to have gone the full-720 back to the Fordson Major!

Special Circumstances

Heroditas wrote: »

The government didn't pay Tesco to retrofit their lighting, Tesco borrowed the money from the energy efficiency fund at quite a hefty interest rate.
That fund exists to provide finance for ESCO solutions and EPCs (energy performance contracts). The money isn't being given away for free

Source please. I was good enough to include an official source that made no mention of hefty interest rates.


Other than that - "average 4pot diesel sounds at least as quiet or possibly sounds better than petrol" ???? I'm outta here! Til the next time oil burners!

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Might I suggest a Carina E for this purpose :cool:

I'll have it if it can be heard from the next town and seen across 2 counties!:D

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I'll have it if it can be heard from the next town and seen across 2 counties!:D

My one would literally shake the windows of the houses from the road, at the end.
Good aul mechanical fuel pumps and removed exhausts!

JJJJNR

Something to highlight how the "scientific evidence" can be somewhat skewed.

Heroditas

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Source please. I was good enough to include an official source that made no mention of hefty interest rates.


Other than that - "average 4pot diesel sounds at least as quiet or possibly sounds better than petrol" ???? I'm outta here! Til the next time oil burners!

Source for what? The interest rate or the fact that it's not being given away for free?
If it's the latter, SDCL are the fund manager and it is a seed capital fund. Look up who SDCL are - they haven't invested millions in the fund, along with Dimplex and other UK funds for the good of their health.
Regarding the interest rate, I've been involved in a number of projects that have sought finance from this fund and the rates quoted have been north of 10%.
Jonathan Maxwell explains in the link below how the fund works. It works via EPCs - energy performance contracts where you pay back the money over a fixed term using the money that is saved via the reduced energy bills.

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/clean-tech/item/36813-70m-irish-energy-efficienc

Now whether you believe me or not is another thing. I really couldn't give a sh1te either way but this is the field I work in.

dieselbug

My first diesel was an 86 Granada conversion, I stuck a Nissan 2.5 in it from an Urvan.

Now that did make a bit of noise, a form of music really.

dr.fuzzenstein

JJJJNR wrote: »

Something to highlight how the "scientific evidence" can be somewhat skewed.

I wouldn't be surprised, any study sets out to prove something one way but not another. Nobody will pay good money for a study that comes up with unbiased results, they get commissioned only for one thing: To back up an agenda. Nobody will say "conduct a study on how petrol and diesel compare against each other in a real world setting taking all aspects into consideration", but more along the lines "conduct a study that proves diesel is evil and needs to be eradicated taking only points against diesel into consideration".
It's all in the brief. That determines the outcome. I could say "conduct a study that will prove that water is bad for your health" (drinking too much can kill you), "conduct a study that proves a fry up each morning is good for you" (eating a fry up is still better than eating nothing), "conduct a study that proves no exercise is the healthiest way of life" (accidents and heart attacks while jogging), easy peasy squeeze the lemon easy.

maddness

I would imagine that if people here take the time to read what is written on a motors forum that they tend to be interested in cars and therefore like engines?
Whatever the latest study tells us about how good petrol/diesel cars are we will all have our opinions as to which we prefer driving due to power delivery, costs etc.
In saying that I drive a diesel company car and it dull as dishwater and I miss driving a petrol car. I get why a lot of people are big fans of modern diesel cars but I just have too many reasons why I prefer petrol. If it was my own money I'd have a petrol because for me they are just so much more my thing.

dr.fuzzenstein

maddness wrote: »

I would imagine that if people here take the time to read what is written on a motors forum that they tend to be interested in cars and therefore like engines?
Whatever the latest study tells us about how good petrol/diesel cars are we will all have our opinions as to which we prefer driving due to power delivery, costs etc.
In saying that I drive a diesel company car and it dull as dishwater and I miss driving a petrol car. I get why a lot of people are big fans of modern diesel cars but I just have too many reasons why I prefer petrol. If it was my own money I'd have a petrol because for me they are just so much more my thing.

Hang out here for a while and you will notice one of these "the end is nigh for diesel!" threads every month or so. Immediately the usual people will jump in an shout stuff with clatterbox, oilburner, soot-spewing cancer death machine, ban them all, everyone should drive an M5 or at the very least a 2 liter turbo petrol and how every petrol is a divine souffle of V8 Ferrari engine noise with Scarlett Johannsen orgasmic shrieks mixed in and how every petrol handles divine and why a 1 liter petrol Yaris is automatically better than ANY diesel. Then someone usually comes up with some dodgy math that proves that running a 530i is really a lot cheaper than running a 520d and that 6 cylinder petrols should be compulsory by law. The electric boys are starting to get a word in, but usually get shouted down by both camps. Usually the diesel camp then responds with lots of youtube videos of extra smokey diesel madness, just to be obnoxious and all that is interspersed with dodgy science and statistics. In short:



Really this one is exceptionally polite so far, some of the earlier ones had some bans and infractions handed out.

ianobrien

There are a few problems with modern diesels. People are buying them for "the cheap tax" and for the fuel economy but their driving pattern is not suitable for modern diesels (small journeys about town, etc). They are going to get stung with large repair bills. Also, modern small diesels with their terrible torque and power curves mean that they are going to be driven with large throttle openings to make progress, resulting in a large gap between advertised and achieved fuel consumption. (Having driven some of the modern small diesels, they've got horrid power delivery and bugger all spread of torque).

Now, for modern powerful diesels (generally 2.0 and above) have a proper spread of torque meaning that for general driving, less throttle openings are needed. If they are driven properly, in the real world they can be more efficient than the smaller engines. I know of people that are getting better economy from 2.0 diesel Octavias compared to 1.6 diesel Octavias.

The long term problem is that there was massive investment in diesel technology resulting in massive improvement in refinement, power, economy, etc. The problem is with the pollution control technology needed to keep them compliant. Now, they are investing in improving petrols resulting in small turbo engines and petrol - hybrid engines. Once the real world fuel economy of modern petrols matches that of diesels, diesels will probably die off for cars.

Diesels will remain for commercial vehicles I reckon.